Eurobricks Mafia Day Two: Moonlight Medicine

[Hinckley]

*red hair, red face, red dress*

Today, today!

I know what I say,

I know what I saw,

Today, today!

You've slipped up this way,

Please tell me someone else saw!

Today, today!

I checked it twice to say

That Zepher edited and I saw.

*tappity, tappity tap tap*

[Zepher]

Again, as I said to you in PM, as a Duke I am unable to edit posts without the site making note of it. As in it is literally impossible. And I also have reviewed all my posts and can find nothing wrong with them. In fact, you quote them in their entirety directly below them... so... they're clearly all the way they were...

[Adam]

This correspondence with Scouty popped up very fast and very confusingly. Perhaps it's because the whole case against him is being presented in song, perhaps it's because the quoted messages from Scouty have weird formatting, and perhaps it's because it's entirely possible that Scouty was pulling some kind of act in order to lure out scum. We need more perspective on this than just Hinckley's claims (I'm looking at you, Scouty).

Also, Hinckley, if you're so certain that Scouty is lying about his role claim, then how can you be so positive that the watcher exists? Couldn't it be entirely possible that Scouty made him up in order to back himself up? Speaking of which, how did the subject of the watcher even come up in your PM conversation?

I was in the thread when Zepher made his posts and they don't look any different. Is it possible that you confused a post merger with an edit?

[Hinckley]

*red hair, tap dance*

So sorry, so sorry!

My computer's an

Atari,

I'm not sure why it appeared

So sorry, so sorry!

This computer's an

Atari,

For the editing offense, yoooooooooooooooooou...aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaare...cleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeared!

*tap, tap, tap*

[Hinckley]

Also, Hinckley, if you're so certain that Scouty is lying about his role claim, then how can you be so positive that the watcher exists? Couldn't it be entirely possible that Scouty made him up in order to back himself up? Speaking of which, how did the subject of the watcher even come up in your PM conversation?

*waltzing, dirty rags, orphanage, French Revolution in future*

Where do I say I'm positive?

Of course he could be made up,

We will just have to wait and see,

If he is real or make-believe.

Scouty said he had a friend,

that friend is a watcher, he said

That's why I am leaning towards,

the watcher being real as swords

Scouty was caught by the watcher

and had to cover all bases

Since he had already said so much

when the watcher got in touch

*waltzes sadly*

[Dannylonglegs]

I'd be interested to hear Scouty's role-claim from his own mouth, because it sounds possible that he was making it up trying to catch a scum, but I doubt the existence of a Day vig, so if it hinges on that and we don't see evidence of a day vig, then I'd be more than willing to vote for Scouty. If the role makes sense though, I'm gunna go with my gut and guess that Scouty was trying not too subtly to get you to claim Scum. Either way, that whole interaction is so screwed up that I couldn't stop myself from laughing out loud at the end.

~Insectoid Aristocrat

[Rick]

You can beat around the bush all you want. I messed up by approaching you, I should have watched you again tonight, but I'll chalk it up to an inexperienced mistake. So now I'm left with a choice, either I tell the thread what I do know along with what I think I know. This will likely get me killed, I presume by you and your scum team.

Or if you are scum and if your team has the ability, you recruit me and I keepy mouth shut and you can use my ability to your advantage.

Like I said, I make the mistake by contacting you and I pretty much feel like these are my only two options at this point.

So, the watcher targeted Shadows and saw Scouty targeting him, but how can you "watch" someone "again" if you don't know who their target is going to be?

The funny thing is that I can't be converted and some of you out there know you can't be either, nor was I given any indication that I had been targeted (I wouldn't expect to be, naturally, since nothing happened). It does, at least, confirm my theory that the scum are idiots, you don't convert without investigating to determine you can and if the evidence presented is correct, we know that didn't happen since he was blocked the night before.

Do you also have a vest? Investigating "convertibility" first would make sense if the number of conversion attempts is limited. However, from def's description of the game, I don't get the feeling that's the case here.

As for Hinck's magic "Scum find," I'm a bit more skeptic now that the cards are all face-up on the table. Honestly, this looks like Scouty trying to pretend to be scum in order to figure out if Hinck's scum. Sure he's got a convenient role-claim, but he's bizarrely vague and weird in the PMs. That doesn't look like what I'd expect a scum to say, and it actually heightens somewhat my suspicion of Hinck that he'd come out with this in the way that he did, but only slightly. He might have interpreted Scouty's actions differently, and this sort of thing is usually best decided by the public. I'd probably do the same thing as Scouty if I were in his position, but I'd probably throw in a "Savvy?" and sign it, ~O.G.

The PMs in which Scouty approaches Hinck (and Shadows) sure seem scummy, but as I said earlier it also seems like a very risky move on Scouty's part and the roleclaim is just... weird.

You think that he contacted two separate people (both you and the watcher) and acted all scummy? Think about it logically, he's looking for ONE team, so why would you act all scummy towards TWO people? That doesn't make any sense. I don't feel like I'm articulating my reasoning enough, but basically acting scummy towards two people would most likely result in a) them being a team (so it would have been unnecessary) or the only real alternative b) they're not a team and one of them is town and rats him out.

The way I read it, Scouty was contacted by the watcher. Scouty seems to have contacted Shadows too though.

[Alopex]

Interesting stuff you found Hinckley, but as others said I would like to hear what Scouty has to say.

[Scouty]

Oh, god, you're such a twat, Hinckley. If you're not, then you're scum. Twaty scum.

and perhaps it's because it's entirely possible that Scouty was pulling some kind of act in order to lure out scum.

That's what it is and that's what it was with the watcher. An attempt to infiltrate scum. The watcher, unlike Hinckley, is much more sensible to actually listening to me instead of going "LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU, LALALALA"

Here's a very summarized version of events:

Hinck and I are talking about the day and such, bla bla bla, before yesterday night and all. He asked me, several times, about the different MOs/killers. I gave him my reply, which I thought they were different people (but I can't be sure, because I have no bloody clue). Next he tells me that the town blocker contact him and told him that he (the blocker) blocked me night zero. That is certainly true (so I can at least be sure that a blocker contacted him, can't be sure if he's town or not, but he knew I was blocked, and so did I).

Back track a little here.

In the middle of the beginning of the day, the watcher contacts me, asking me why he saw me targeting shadows. I'm not so keen to tell him my role right away, that would be typical and could possibly get me killed, did I know if he was really the watcher or not then? No, not at all. Anyway, I thought I'd play on it and be totally vague about it. In all honesty, everything I said is with town perspective. The friends I refer to? Just other town folk. Not bloody scum, I don't want to be their friends. As you can see, the watcher and I came to a sort of calm understanding. We can work this out slowly and the hope is that we become friends or I catch him as scum. That's all what my intentions were.

Fast forward again, Hinck comes forward with the town blocker (not in name, no clue who he is), and with the recent discussion with the watcher and how my "vague" tactic worked then, I decided to do it with Hinck too. But, no, Hinck's a twat, he panics and immediately thinks I'm scum. I knew he'd blab this out and I told him not to be hasty, he'd ruin it all. The twat. He blabbed and ruined it all. Good job.

You know what I was doing? I was being scummy. ON PURPOSE. That's what we're supposed to do in this game. Not to look all happy dappily doo and explain "Oh, look at me, I'm so towny, TOWNY TOWNY TOWNY". No, we all have to be a little scummy to make things interesting.

I was hoping to make friends. Here on my sides were the watcher, the town blocker, and Hinck. That's a pretty good list of friends there. It was my hope to keep it quiet so that we could work freely without raising suspicion of scum. But do you know who doesn't like to play that game? Hinck doesn't. Hinck time and again has outed me in past lives and never once was I scum. I'm still not scum. I hoped this time would be different, he wouldn't out me so quickly like before. How wrong I was , the twat I am. I hoped to build a good relationship of friends here, but any hope of how I imagined it to be is totally ruined now that I have to lay it out so that the town doesn't lynch me.

I'm the seer. I see who is going to die in the day and I can prevent their death. It's a night action that is effective the next day.

I really don't know what exactly this entails. I targeted Hinck the first night, but I was blocked, and then I targeted Shadows the following night, which I was successful, and I'm sure he can attest to you that he wasn't converted, at least not through my hands. I really don't know if there's a day killer or not, I wanted to ask friends about it and help me understand it...

I really didn't want to tell him my role. But I also really wanted him not to BLAB OUR CONVERSATION OUT BECAUSE HE MAKES CONCLUSIONS TOO QUICKLY. Uhm, oh . So I compromised with myself and hoped that by telling him the truth, he'd finally get some sense in him. But he's a twat and blabs anyway. Doesn't do his "verify, verify, verify". Barely makes any effort to verify me. He just...blabs.

Everything I'm saying is the truth. Like I told the watcher, like I told Hinck, if they outed me I would tell the truth. I have not lied. I only used ambiguity to infiltrate potential scum. Guess I can't use that anymore .

I'm a fool and he's a fool (or scum). I hate to be so rude about it, but I expected so much more cooperation.

The worst part is...is that I think he's town. In all this ordeal, it's a somewhat logical conclusion to reach to. Still, I also think he's being manipulative and throwing my infiltration attempt back in my face. As a true test if I was scum or not (I considered keeping with the idea that I was scum, but I ended up choosing to tell the straight truth, that I'm the seer; I don't know, if I had kept up with the scum front would I have passed his test? Is he really just testing me?)

[Rick]

I'm the seer. I see who is going to die in the day and I can prevent their death. It's a night action that is effective the next day.

When do you 'see' this? And how can you prevent their death? By targeting them at night?

[CMP]

What's the problem with contacting him normally if you wanted to form a block? I mean, if you thought he was scum (which you obviously didn't), the scum tactic is reasonable, but if he's a townie, you're putting your life on the line thinking he'll see through your tactic.

[Scouty]

When do you 'see' this? And how can you prevent their death? By targeting them at night?

I send in a name of who I want to see at night. I've only been told that I was blocked; I never got anything back for my seer submission of shadows. There's no other details that I can offer you, since I don't know of anything more than this. I pretty much said what I was told.

What's the problem with contacting him normally if you wanted to form a block? I mean, if you thought he was scum (which you obviously didn't), the scum tactic is reasonable, but if he's a townie, you're putting your life on the line thinking he'll see through your tactic.

Because you have to take risks to get somewhere. I wasn't just going to lie back and do nothing. I was being ballsy. I had little clue if he was scum or town. What if he was scum and I approached him in a townie way? The same, dull, typical town approach one would always make? Yawn. Plus, I was not keen to blab my role so randomly to someone who I don't know if they're town or scum. In this game, the scum approach is the better option. Well, not anymore, now, though.

I'll tell you this. This is telling me a lot more about Hinckley than if I had done nothing. It's not a whole lot more, but it's certainly behavior that I can analyze. No longer is there a haze around Hinck for me. Now there's just very strong polar opposites.

[CMP]

I'm not saying you should've blabbed your role. I'm saying that's a pointless risk if you don't think he's scum. You'd be getting to the exact same place if you weren't acting all scummy.

Well, no, it probably would've worked then.

I don't know what to think. It sounds to me like you just messed up going about forming a block in this situation. On the other hand, like Rick said, that's a really weird claim.

[Rick]

I send in a name of who I want to see at night. I've only been told that I was blocked; I never got anything back for my seer submission of shadows. There's no other details that I can offer you, since I don't know of anything more than this. I pretty much said what I was told.

So, if you pick the target of the day killer successfully you have the option to save them? That's what it sounds like to me now.

[def]

With two evenly voted candidates, how did you come to this conclusion?

The rules. Read them

Vote Tally

Scouty 1 (Hinckley)

[Scouty]

I'm not saying you should've blabbed your role. I'm saying that's a pointless risk if you don't think he's scum. You'd be getting to the exact same place if you weren't acting all scummy.

Well, no, it probably would've worked then.

I imagined things to be so very complicated. That there was more than meets the eye. Tell me it's not worth trying? And with a role like mine. A weak doctor, what does that entail? What does that tell?

I don't know what to think. It sounds to me like you just messed up going about forming a block in this situation.

Probably, but it's a risk I was willing to take. I expected Hinck to think better of me. That I'd be so obvious and stupid. I'm offended and it makes me think he's just being manipulative now and using it against me. I would think that Hinck would take more caution with this than he has.

On the other hand, like Rick said, that's a really weird claim.

Well, it's not your typical role. This is not your typical game, either. So, I don't know

So, if you pick the target of the day killer successfully you have the option to save them? That's what it sounds like to me now.

Could be? I don't really understand the role (or I'm just over thinking it) and felt that it was not my place to ask for clarification.

It's not just a claim, it's the truth. If I am to die, you will realize all of the truth that I have been talking about. I don't know about a day killer, because I haven't seen evidence of that, so don't hold that to me. All I know is what I've said here, and what I've said is all true.

I'm not saying you should've blabbed your role.

That would be the same, dull townie approach I was talking about earlier. If you're not blabbing, you're insinuating. I've been through this with Hinck and he guessed I was the protector in Ragnarok. I can't blab, I can't insinuate, so let's try scummy, huh?

[Zepher]

Everything I'm saying is the truth. Like I told the watcher, like I told Hinck, if they outed me I would tell the truth. I have not lied. I only used ambiguity to infiltrate potential scum. Guess I can't use that anymore .

I'm a fool and he's a fool (or scum). I hate to be so rude about it, but I expected so much more cooperation.

Sounds like a reasonable story. It sounds, in fact, like a sound strategy, and was what I suspected you were doing after reviewing the PMs. Hinckley doesn't like when people try strategies he's not in on.

After he repeatedly called me out for something that I didn't do (editing a post) both in thread and PM, he asked me if I had any information for him (after calling me scummy). I am tired of this attitude. Either he is scum trying to stop the town from playing a smart game (def told us to be scummy if we hoped to survive- he gave us a tool that Hinckley is trying to destroy), or he is an extremely stubborn townie who is hurting the town by destroying any strategy he's not personally privy to. Either way, he's being far more prickly than usual (last time he was the most cuddly quarter eating hedgehog you could ask for, and now he's all bristled). Hincks smart, I think he's trying to form a town block by "doing townie things", and making the town feel like it shouldn't play the game it was told to play.

And calling out someone for editing (especially when they explain patiently numerous times it was impossible) and trying to get them in trouble for it-- that seems like scum trying to remove a townie on a technicality. And it just rubs me the wrong way.

I feel good about this vote. Vote: Hinckley.

[JimBee]

So much to read and take in! Unfortunately I have to go to work, but I will be back in a few short hours to share my thoughts. One thing that I wanted to throw out there was that I agree with Zepher - if Scouty was really scum then why would he contact... three people, was it? (Hinck, Watcher, Shadows). If he's scum trying to find other scum, surely he'd be more cautious in his PMs?

But of course, I may be missing something. I only had time to read the thread for a little while and I had to skim the last bit. I'll be back soon with more in-depth thoughts.

[Scouty]

The watcher came to me.

[badboytje88]

I find your blind trust of Hinckley suspicious. Also why volunteer for a role that 1 out of 1 times ends up in that person being killed.

Either your a naive townie to trust him when he won't reveal his supposed scum until tomorrow or your scum with him and you have a horrible poker face.

I never said that I trust Hinck. I just praised him for claiming to find a scum. I never said I trusted him and I never said I would blindly believe what he said.

Why volunteer for the role of mayor? The Mayor is indeed a more interesting target for a kill but it is also a very good target for a watching ability or something like that so I doubt team scum would risk targeting the Mayor 2 nights in a row. I'll manage.

[Tamamono]

So, I actually don't find Scouty that scummy from that evidence alone. I say before we place any more votes we both hear from him, see about that day killer, and consider a few other options. Best option really would be to investigate Shadows tonight, which would probably clear or condemn both him and Scouty.

If there was a day killer, surely we would have seen it by now? I really don't see a day killer as a viable possibility here. Unless it's some sort of vig (which is unlikely due to there already being three kills), there's pretty much no way there can be a day killer, and if it is a vig, what's the point of there being a doctor action specifically for it? If anything, that's a scum action.

You know what I was doing? I was being scummy. ON PURPOSE. That's what we're supposed to do in this game. Not to look all happy dappily doo and explain "Oh, look at me, I'm so towny, TOWNY TOWNY TOWNY". No, we all have to be a little scummy to make things interesting.

While I understand that it might be a good idea to lure the scum into revealing themselves by pretending to be scum yourself, that plan has a statistically higher chance of leading to a town lynch (your own) than it does of lynching a scum. Honestly, at this point, it isn't worth the risk.

Plus, Hinck's been scumming the place up this game; if Scouty's scum and Hinck's not, I can understand why Scouty'd try to contact Hinck to get the two teams together.

I'm the seer. I see who is going to die in the day and I can prevent their death. It's a night action that is effective the next day.

Isn't a seer an investigator who can only see werewolves?

Even if we take Scouty's word for it that he was really just fishing for the scum to reveal themselves, there's no reason why we should believe this roleclaim of his. There's been no sign of a day killer so far; why should we believe that there's one now?

Vote: Scouty

Occam's Razor.

[Zepher]

Why does everyone assume that the scum would be idiots? Why would they make up a role that doesn't correspond to something we've seen? Why would he pretend there was a day killer if there wasn't one? How much time would that buy him, if he were lying? Not much. I have more faith in Scouty than that, if he were scum. I think he would make up a more logical claim. Remember when we voted off a snake charmer action and it was real? That was dumb. People don't make up ridiculous claims to save themselves, they make up believable ones.

[Tamamono]

Remember when we voted off a snake charmer action and it was real?

:hmpf:

[Piratedave84]

The way I see this is as follows:

Either Scouty is scum or Hinck is; hell maybe they're both scum but in different factions!!

Should we vote for Scouty today and he turns town then we lynch Hinck tomorrow!

Should Scouty turn up scum; Victory! And then we look at his supporters!

It's slow progress but at least we're going somewhere!!!

[CMP]

Either Scouty is scum or Hinck is; hell maybe they're both scum but in different factions!!

I think you're missing half the accusation.

This is in response to that second bit.