Euroricks Mafia day three: An end to Ricks

[Big Cam]

Very very very sorry for my lack of professionalism. Dannylonglegs was, of course, Town.

Of course, just like everyone else who has died.

Town town town, I'm not saying it's exactly the same as the other game, but it sure stinks of it.

That's quite a reaction there Cam. I remember that game too, I played it as well (and I won, which was nice). I even remember a comment about the number of dead players reading the day thread might have given the mechanics away, and there are a lot of dead players reading. However, the number of kills, as I said, makes this a very different circumstance. It has crossed my mind that def would lock us in here to metagame ourselves to death, but that was a Mafystery game. This is a Mafia game. So I ask again, who do you think is killing all these people? I mentioned that. And I mentioned that too.

Again, I never said this is what's happening for sure. I was just saying it smells of that platform, OR something similar, or equally as twisted. Obviously we have 3 different killers. Whether they are all vigs, or all serial killers, or a mix, or scum, or whatever, according to the images we are allowed to see.

Oh, and was this a confession? Because it's patently obvious that I have accused others today. Still lonely, without a conversion, perhaps?

Really, grasping at straws there. Me saying that you think I'm scum is hardly a confession. Let not try to turn the attention to me when obviously you are the person of interest today. As messed up as Hinck was yesterday it turns out he was town, which pretty much validates his babbling.

I'm a simple townie, I haven't been having all these PM conversations like apparently half of you have, so I can only go off of what others say. Unfortunately we were wrong about Hinck, but you were coming in a strong second. Why don't you openly share your PM's with Scouty and Hinckley like Hinckley did, unless you have something to hide.

[MagPiesRUs]

Of course, just like everyone else who has died.

Town town town, I'm not saying it's exactly the same as the other game, but it sure stinks of it.

Again, I never said this is what's happening for sure. I was just saying it smells of that platform, OR something similar, or equally as twisted. Obviously we have 3 different killers. Whether they are all vigs, or all serial killers, or a mix, or scum, or whatever, according to the images we are allowed to see.

Given that the entire premise behind this game is that all the major twists were already outlined before we began, I'd say the chances of something like this happening is 0%.

Really, grasping at straws there. Me saying that you think I'm scum is hardly a confession. Let not try to turn the attention to me when obviously you are the person of interest today. As messed up as Hinck was yesterday it turns out he was town, which pretty much validates his babbling.

And by the end of the day, Hinckley had changed his mind about Pandora and set his sights on Shadows, Dave, Zepher, NightShroud and DarthPotato. Are the suspicious he directed towards them validated too, or does that logic only apply to Pandora?

[Scouty]

Well, this is all so very disappointing. My mind is boggled so far that I can't think of an analogy to finish this sentence with.

Anyway, the one thing that I can get off my mind is something for Pandora. I just one to reply to some of her comments from yesterday.

You edited that piece of information into that PM, I can tell by the e-mail notification, and because of that I didn't see it. I'm not saying you did that scummily, but you did do it, hence my 'vague' advice about telling you to find some way to protect yourself, especially considering everybody has pretty much come out and said they believe you.

Ah, yeah, I had prematurely sent the PM, and edited in what I wanted to ask, if I should tell or not.

[========]

This next thing I really have a problem with, and it contradicts what you told me.

No Scouty, I am not sure of it and never said so, but I do think, based on the conversation you posted, that he might be scum. I told you in private and I'll say it again that the 'clarifications' you received might well have been the result of a scum team realising what one of their scummy number had been spouting in private and seeking to limit any damage from it. It doesn't mean I'm sure they are scum, and the very last message I sent to you said so.

This is what you told me:

I really think this watcher is scum Scouty. His reply to you quotes what I or Rick said in the post as the added bolding is there, and it seems he's now afraid of scrutiny. I agree with the theory that he thought you were trying to convert Shadows and thus make contact with you. I can believe he was indeed watching Shadows with a view to seeing if anyone did come along and try to convert him (Shadows is, amongst others, a prime conversion target). The implication of that is that the 'watcher' is on the scum-kill team and that Shadows is (currently) town. The watcher there sounds a bit like he's been briefed by his scum team with a "I can't believe you said that to Scouty, you need to clear this up" slap.

Not "might be scum", but "really think this watcher is scum". That sounds like certainty to me, so why now take a step back and say "might be scum"?? Plus, the watcher didn't quote Rick or you, he quoted (what he bolded) himself from a message earlier in our pm-unless you were referring to something else, but it's not clear to me what the watcher said in bolding from you guys. And furthermore:

You have the same thoughts on the watcher as I do. That you can't be sure if he's scum or town, which is exactly what I said.

In the quote above, you don't mention that the watcher could be town, there's only the thought that he is scum...you only mention that the watcher is town later on, which I think is odd:

It is worrying that the name of the watcher could die with you, but equally worrying that you could tell the scum of a town role if things go awry. Think carefully about your potential trusted person.

You go from thinking that he "really is scum" to worrying that the watcher's name is going to die with me. It's an odd contradiction here and you only think of the watcher as scum/town on different occasions.

[========]

I'm going to really struggle to defend myself of being scum, by being accused of being towny.

Well, it's a different game this time around. Look at Rick, he was looking scummy and he turned up town. I thought it was an interesting point that Hinck made: "She, cheekily, implied I reveal things to her before I got killed. She was the most engaged with me, when so many people thought I was Scum. If the Town is acting Scummy, she was "acting" the most Town. I've worked with her as Town. She follows through on things. Forgetting about the people I said I'd talk to is weird for her." This was before he switched his vote for Shadows, so I'm not sure what happened afterwards that convinced him that voting for you was not the right way to go. It's only at moments (like mine) where we are on the line to be lynched that our townie colors should come through. We're supposed to be scummy...so here's you looking townie when you're not under pressure. It's an interesting observation, isn't it? Maybe I'm wrong in thinking like this...but the structure of the game seems to support it.

[========]

Scouty, you are making a huuuuge mistake, you really are. I'm town, and town doesn't want to lose me. You've put me in an awful position, but if you're willing to give so many other people a second chance, then you should do the same with me.

Well, statements like these give me no confidence, because clearly (from a scum perspective) a scum is going to assert their importance in this game (as should every towny, but when the scum are doing it, it sort of becomes superfluous). If you are so important, give me a good reason to believe that in private, or else I just can't shake the thought that you're a clever scum

[========]

Right now I also believe Scouty and Hinck to be town too, and I'm glad there's now focus on another suspect, but to say that I'm disappointed that it's me would be putting it mildly. I believe there is a very good chance you would want to keep me alive over Hinck, town though I believe him to be.

Well, I'm sorry it had to be you...I would be sorry it had to be anybody, because we did this so late. Hinck and I talked a lot just before that, very heatedly, and at the end of that I could trust him as town, and I was right. I was desperate to try and save him, because he had an important role (and a town role to trump his would have to be a pretty big one), and I wanted to redeem ourselves for wasting the day. I wasn't just going to sit back and let him die and think pensively about stuff the next day. Why let him die when we can try and save him...we were pretty close, until he switched his vote. I would have liked to discuss things with you and fix the contradictions we found in your behavior this game, but it was absolutely urgent and we had to push the case.

Concerning Shadows, I cannot tell you that he is scum or town, but at that late night, he was helpful in his opinions in the case against Pandora (and was initially opposed to it, stating the futility of trying to turn the lynch). Overall, he looked like town to me, there. I can see that he was a scum put into an awkward position...but I'm more inclined to think he's town.

[Shadows]

Yeah, me too. Hinck left me his real reasons for voting for me in the first place, and all that notwithstanding, as I've already said, it is obvious he and I were working together at the end of the day. Which is why he unvoted me.

Were the reasons he gave you different from the ones he gave me (and Scouty, I assume)?

You yourself think like a scum, you often say so. If you really think that I can manipulate Hinckley, of all people, then you are sorely misguided. If you think I can do so in a few hours, then... that's kinda a compliment, even though it's wrong.

I do, and so far it isn't helping, it just keeps making people suspect me, which is weird in a game where so many people are acting scummy (which is why it hasn't helped so far).

As for Hinck, I've seen lots of people manipulate him successfully, that wouldn't be hard for anyone who knows him, but it's true that the timing would be difficult.

Before this turns into the Pandora vs Shadows show, lets not have a rerun of yesterday, where all other concerns fall by the wayside.

I will agree with that as well. Knowing that I'm town, and with the confirmation that Dave was, it would be foolish for me to focus too much on whatever was going through Hinck's mind in those last hours and letting everyone else off the hook to fight what would amount to a "he said/she said" battle. That's just the kind of distraction the scum would benefit from most.

Dannylonglegs was, of course, Town.

Ugh. I'm not surprised, but the use of "of course" is like adding insult to injury.

And by the end of the day, Hinckley had changed his mind about Pandora and set his sights on Shadows, Dave, Zepher, NightShroud and DarthPotato. Are the suspicious he directed towards them validated too, or does that logic only apply to Pandora?

I think we can leave Dave off that list now, don't you?

[Scouty]

[=========]

Also, while we are losing Townies to killers, dropping like flies, we can't forget the recruiters. Have they been successful in recruiting somebody yet? It's been three nights now. So we're faced with losses on more than just the public front.

[Tamamono]

H0n3st1y, ! d0n't s33 y th3 w4tch3r w0u1d b scum. Wh!13 scum w4tch3rs 4r3n't unh34rd 0f, th3 scumz usu41 str4t (4nd sm4t3st st4t) !s 2 l!3 4s 1!tt!3 4s p0ss!b13. Y w0u1d 4 scum r!sk h!ms31f l1k3 th4t so 34r1y?

[Scouty]

H0n3st1y, ! d0n't s33 y th3 w4tch3r w0u1d b scum. Wh!13 scum w4tch3rs 4r3n't unh34rd 0f, th3 scumz usu41 str4t (4nd sm4t3st st4t) !s 2 l!3 4s 1!tt!3 4s p0ss!b13. Y w0u1d 4 scum r!sk h!ms31f l1k3 th4t so 34r1y?

I thought broadway musical rhyming was bad, I feel so sorry for you!

Well, I can see how the watcher can be both scum and town. Some people are saying that there can't be a scum watcher, because it's an informative role, and def said there would be none.

I think, though, it's a better interpretation that there will be no informative roles that will confirm the affiliation of somebody. So no investigator or somebody to say who is and who isn't recruitable (though there might be one, but I think there'd be more of a challenge without such a role).

Watcher, however, does not confirm affiliation, it just tells you who targeted who. I don't expect the scum's only actions in their arsenal to be just Killer and Recruiter...they have to have something more, and a watcher is one such possible role.

So, a watcher approaching me is acceptable as a scum because he can just say he's town and it's the beginning of talking to other power roles that could very well be scum.

Whether the watcher I'm talking to is scum or not...it's difficult to tell. The results from today are not very satisfying and I wonder if he's lying or just being truthful. I could make a case for him as scum and him as town equally well

What concerns me is Pandora's certainty that the watcher is scum (and then goes back on it later on, and then saying "might"). Interestingly, another player I'm talking to thinks the watcher is town.

[Scouty]

Ok, to not keep harping on Pandora, I looked at the list of suspects Hinck told me and I'll share them here with you all.

On JimB: "He did the same thing again, with a wishy-washy non-committal post. I told him how Scummy it seemed in Ragnarok and WBD killed him for it." JimB was one of the other candidates we were talking about in attempting to turn the lynch. He sent me this earlier: "I thought Jim's wishy-washy post yesterday was Scummy and I pointed that out. What else have you seen? He's dropped a couple Scum tells by PM too. I'll explain in greater detail later. Right now I'm on my phone." Unfortunately he didn't elaborate on that later on, when he began questioning me.

On Draggy: "Draggy builds a case against me but lets other people vote. I gave him an opportunity to make a post that would definitely make me look like Scum. He didn't post it. His reactions to my other posts, really seem like Town Draggy, though." I, more or less, think Draggy is town, but I, of course, could be wrong.

Hinck thinks Tammo is scum, and I agree with him. Tammo's behavior yesterday struck me as that of a scum.

And of course on Darth Potato, Nightshroud and Zepher, which he posted yesterday. I've hardly seen much from Nightshroud, he seems to be quite the lurker.

[def]

In the case nobody votes for mayor, a random draw will determine the position.

[Tamamono]

I thought broadway musical rhyming was bad, I feel so sorry for you!

;_;

Well, I can see how the watcher can be both scum and town. Some people are saying that there can't be a scum watcher, because it's an informative role, and def said there would be none.

0, d1d h3? th4t m4k3s th3 w4tch3r 3v3n m0r3 t0wn imo.

Hinck thinks Tammo is scum, and I agree with him. Tammo's behavior yesterday struck me as that of a scum.

h3 0bv!0us1y d!d th!nk s0, h3 sp3nt th3 l4st f3w h0urs 0f th3 d4y !nt3rr0g4t!ng m3 4nd qu3st!0n!ng my 3v3ry w0rd. s0 f3ck!ng 4nn0ying. h0w3vr, h3 w4s 411 0v3r th3 pl4c3 y3st3rd4y, 4nd fr4nk1y, ! w0u1dn't b3 surpr!s3d !f 3v3ry 0n3 0f h!s r34ds w4s wr0ng.

h0w3v3r, ! d0n't g3t y ppl 4r3 f0110w1ng h1s r34d 0n m3. ! h4v3 b33n n0th!ng but t0wn th!s g4m3, 4nd !'m l3g!t!m4t3ly p!ss3d 0ff th4t y0u c4n't s33 th4t. p1us, !t d03sn't h3lp th4t y0u g!v3 4 fu11 p4r4gr4ph abt 3v3ry1 31s3, wh!l3 411 ! g3t !s "s33ms l!k3 scum!!". h0w th3 h311 4m ! supp0s3d 2 d3f3nd mys3lf wh3n y0u d0n't 3v3n sp3c!fy y ! "s33m l!ke scum"?? :hmpf :hmpf:

typ!ng l!3k th!s !s g!v!ng m3 4 h34d4ch3.

[Dragonator]

I agree that probably a large portion of our scum are likely hiding in the lurkers. They're letting the townies fight each other and not saying much themselves.

Big Cam's opening statement today made me pull a face, and I haven't much liked anything else he has said in response to people mentioning how odd that was. I have also noted he hasn't had much, if anything, to say over the past few days.

Pandora would it be possible to see some of Hinck's dialogue with you at the end of yesterday?

Any thoughts on mayor? Maybe one of the lurkers to force them to take part in discussion?

[Scouty]

! w0u1dn't b3 surpr!s3d !f 3v3ry 0n3 0f h!s r34ds w4s wr0ng.

Nope, at least one of his reads was very accurate. Spot on, actually. The others I agree with, more or less

[Zepher]

Care to explain that at all, Scouty? One of his reads was very right? Are you telling us that we have a confirmed town, or better yet, a confirmed scum? We also know that one of his reads was wrong, because Dave flipped town, and his reads on you and Pandora were both retracted while he was still alive... so, while he wasn't the most reliable source, if you have a piece of useful information, it would be nice if you shared it with the town. At least in a more clear form, such as "we have a confirmed townie" or something along those lines. The way you've stated it right now is vague and ominous and quite frankly not helpful.

[Pandora]

Oh believe me, I have been reading. Trying to find someone who slips up but it's so hard! We have Town trying to act a bit Scummy while still remaining Townish then on the other hand we have Scum trying to act like a Towny trying to act a bit Scummy while still remaining Townish... Not to speak of any third parties... My head hurts trying to write that sentence down.

So far I've been quite unsuccessful...

It is so hard, isn't it? Not one thing has struck you as odd or comment-worthy? You've not disagreed with anything anyone has said? You've not read anything that doesn't sit well with you? Nothing?

I'm still confused why you told Hinck anything. Why would you before his alliance was revealed?

What an odd thing to say. Hinck's 'alliance' (and I assume you mean affiliation) was only 'revealed' on his death. Should I PM him now? Now it's clear he's town?

You smell scummy Zepher.

Why don't you openly share your PM's with Scouty and Hinckley like Hinckley did, unless you have something to hide.

Well obviously I do have something to hide, but I'm still town though. Saying that makes me think you want everyone to roleclaim openly in the thread, which... is scummy. Or very daft.

Not "might be scum", but "really think this watcher is scum". That sounds like certainty to me, so why now take a step back and say "might be scum"??

It sounds like certainty to you, but unfortunately that's a matter of interpretation. The words 'really think' are, to my mind, a stark contrast to 'believe' or 'know'. Me saying 'I really think he's scum' is me saying 'with all the information I have right now, I'm not sure, but if I had to place a bet, then I'd say the watcher is scum'. Information changes things, and I'm willing to accept that the watcher might not be scum, in fact I've already said that. I said to you that the watcher might be scum (he might) and thus it would be sensible for you to tell one person you trust his name, lest his name die with you at some point. I also said at the same time that it ran the risk of you giving a potentially townie watcher name to a potential scum. I think you have misinterpreted what I said.

Plus, the watcher didn't quote Rick or you, he quoted (what he bolded) himself from a message earlier in our pm-unless you were referring to something else, but it's not clear to me what the watcher said in bolding from you guys.

Again, I think you've misunderstood. The points we were making was that the language used by the Watcher was weird. I pointed that out, Rick pointed it out. It sounded, from the information we were given, like the watcher was reporting tracking results, which made me doubt his veracity. Hence me thinking, on the balance of probabilities, at that time, that there was a good chance he was scum.

"She, cheekily, implied I reveal things to her before I got killed. She was the most engaged with me, when so many people thought I was Scum. If the Town is acting Scummy, she was "acting" the most Town. I've worked with her as Town. She follows through on things. Forgetting about the people I said I'd talk to is weird for her."

I haven't changed my gameplay at all. I didn't see the point, because everyone always gets it wrong. I'm not even trying to act scummy to camouflage the fact I'm town. I believe I'm playing a straight townie game, but I've believed that before and been lynched for it, so... I'm kind of stuck. I understand your logic, but accusing me of being scum for being too townie is WIFOM to the nth degree and we will end up swallowing our tails.

I'm not sure what happened afterwards that convinced him that voting for you was not the right way to go. It's only at moments (like mine) where we are on the line to be lynched that our townie colors should come through. We're supposed to be scummy...so here's you looking townie when you're not under pressure. It's an interesting observation, isn't it? Maybe I'm wrong in thinking like this...but the structure of the game seems to support it.

See my point above. As to what happened, well, I'll get to that.

Well, I'm sorry it had to be you...I would be sorry it had to be anybody, because we did this so late.

I understand why you did it, like I said I had actually already said to Hinck that he needed to convince people who would be listened to. It was an unfortunate series of events, and I still (currently) believe you're not scum.

Pandora would it be possible to see some of Hinck's dialogue with you at the end of yesterday?

I think this is the best way forward. I will, however, remove some parts (and indicate where they have been removed) because even townies have secrets.

Notice how this is exactly the same as Draggy's really bad bandwagon against me in Ragnarok?

I'm town Hinck, and I can't believe you'd do this. I tell you to find some other way, lynching me is not the way I had in mind.

<Removed a line>

Shadows, Draggy and Scouty all working together again.

Who were your targets?

I hope it's obvious I'm the <removed>

Double Post: I don't have much time and I have to give some things to people I can trust <removed>

<Removed reply>

I had to vote you.

Scouty was talking to Draggy, Amy and Shadows on AIM and getting them altogether to save me, but nobody was following through. So I placed the first vote and they all followed suit.

Are you saying this is some sort of appalling sting with me as bait? It's unfortunate you didn't know what you were risking with me when you did that. Really, you could have chosen so many other people.

Yes, and I should've gone with JimB or Zepher, but hey... Scouty was most convinced on you:

This is my message to Shadows. Scouty said he insisted on me contacting him directly :

Yes, there seems to be a case against Pandora, judging by Scouty and I comparing notes. When I put some of her quotes together though, they start to make more sense.

My feeling is, she was the person contacting me the most during the day. She kept pushing in weird ways and said all these things I had done which she was wrong about and then clarified and got back on track. But basically, she advised me to reveal Scouty and now she thinks it was wrong. Granted, she didn't have all the evidence at first but tells me I should've talked to him longer. She's accusing me of knowing it was a Town gambit and trying to get him lynched. That's far-fetched. She thinks PirateDave seems like a Townie. She said something weird about revealing my role to her, that has somehow disappeared. Can't find it.

She told Scouty things I was saying, didn't tell me she was talking to him. And weirdest of all, she said if I was Town, then Scouty would be lynched. That doesn't make any sense. If everyone believes Scouty now, why not tomorrow? My case is about Scouty's Scum tells (perceived) and nobody agrees. My Town corpse won't change that. Scum perspective.

Dave seems Scummy too. Zepher, JimB.

As an interjection here, I know that this message has already been quoted in the thread.

You're going to get me lynched for absolutely no good reason, and with me, one of the most useful town roles.

From your PM to Shadows: " She said something weird about revealing my role to her, that has somehow disappeared. Can't find it."

What was that about?

This whole day is a massive mess. Shadows has voted for me, but seems unwilling to unvote me despite your unvote. <removed>, and even I'm saying you're town, because I now think you are, but people think I'm suspicious because of a crappy case you made against me that now you apparently didn't even believe in. Of all people, to pick me is ridiculous, no matter what Scouty was pushing for. I'm not saying it's scummy, I'm just venting.

I hear you. Don't forget I wasn't 100% convinced on you. I had actual concerns. The ones I voiced, actually. But when nobody was doing anything despite telling me they would, I needed to test it. Scouty may be being manipulated. Big Surprise.

I had no reason to think you had an Action. You told me you were still leaning towards me as Scum. I'm a little worried about your quick roleclaim there, to be truthful. The lynch is nowhere near you and we only have 5 to 10 minutes to do anything about it. I'm going to be lynched, don't worry about it. I'm sure you're safe.

I swear you said in here that it would be Scummy of you to ask me to reveal my role to you before I died, but you wouldn't do that. Scouty said you said something similar. I looked through our conversation but can't find it. I can't tell you how trying to fit logic into rhyming posts and then trying to re-explain everything by PM is taxing on the brain.

Scouty said something about not contacting anyone any more after I accused him. Well, duh. When you have to compose every post in rhyme and try to be clear, it's time consuming!

Also just venting. You know me. I want the people to trust to be verified. Pushing you wasn't a bad idea. Voting for you...revealed a lot. Look at it. Use it, please.

Just a small note, the votes between myself and Hinck were a lot closer than he thought. A couple of unvotes from Hinck to revote on me would have changed a lot.

The votes were snowballing, and from past experience I really thought I was going to end up being voted out, hence the roleclaim. I've never lasted very long as a townie with a PR; the last time was Fabuland Housewives.

I said something about you spilling your guts, yeah, I remember it, but you can read that as town or scum. I am town, and everything I've said is true. I know you can't reply to me (or at least not with game stuff when you're lynched), and it doesn't matter, but I don't want you to go on wondering. I think after today I might get killed anyway, so we can talk more then if you want, but I really, really am who I said I was.

I doubt you're scum, but if you are - well played and no hard feelings (I hope), if you're town (which I still think you are) then this day could have turned out so much better.

And when I mention Fabuland Housewives I obviously forgot The Forest 2, before anyone points that out. Essentially both town, night action, Fabuland, died early.

So there it is. I think I've made it clear why I've removed some of the things I have, not all of you need to know all of this. Some people will get the full picture.

For what it's worth, I think Draggy looks town (but then... he's Draggy), and (and I never thought I'd say this) there is, apparently a good reason to believe Shadows is town too. Amy seems to have disappeared, so I think he's worthy of scrutiny. I'm still happy to answer questions, but focusing solely on me won't get you anywhere.

[Shadows]

I had to vote you.

Scouty was talking to Draggy, Amy and Shadows on AIM and getting them altogether to save me, but nobody was following through. So I placed the first vote and they all followed suit.

This is the kind of thing that makes him frustrating to deal with. First, Amy wasn't involved, I haven't actually seen anything much from Amy in this whole game and that absence is curious to me. Second, it's not 1998, does anyone use AIM now? I know it doesn't matter, but for the sake of correctness, Scouty, Draggy and I were on Steam after he sent me the pm that I asked Scouty to have him send (we've both quoted it) because I wanted to hear it from him directly and not relayed through anyone else. We were, in fact, diligently trying to figure out how to save him because he had convinced us that there was a good case against you, but he waited too long to start the whole thing and I had already warned him of that in pm. I don't know what more we could have done at that point.

I hear you. Don't forget I wasn't 100% convinced on you. I had actual concerns. The ones I voiced, actually. But when nobody was doing anything despite telling me they would, I needed to test it. Scouty may be being manipulated. Big Surprise.

The sad part here is that everything Scouty was saying was coming from Hinck and it was the two of them seeming to be in agreement that got me to go with the change and we all followed through with exactly what he asked. I actually waited a bit to change my vote because I really wanted to give it proper consideration and spent a lot of that time looking at the earlier part of the day for anything that might tell me that it was some kind of elaborate scum trick between Hinck and Scouty. I'm pretty sure I even mentioned considering that when I made the vote change and came to the conclusion that it would be much too complicated for them to have tried. I know that Scouty and Draggy voted sooner, though, so it's hard to justify his claim that nobody was doing anything. I guess that's the part that keeps bugging me, and maybe his perception of the situation was altered by a day of singing and being close to lynching, but it still seems particularly out of place. He could have just come to IRC and we would have all met there, but instead he seemed to be distancing himself by doing things through Scouty, which did not help to alleviate my concerns.

As for testing things, the only thing he did was make a case against you and then change his mind at the last second and turn against me. Prior to that point he never gave any of us a reason to think that he was being anything but truthful in his beliefs, so I don't know what to make of his "test" except that he fooled us?

Seeing everything that he wrote you makes some of it clearer for me, not the parts in his head which are absolutely bewildering in spots, but in how you reacted to them.

This feels like day 6 already, it's been an absolutely frustrating and confusing mess and I'm not sure what direction to go in. With everyone acting scummy it's like I'm a lie detector technician in a convention of psychopaths, I can't sort out the readings I'm getting at all.

We should also be picking a mayor, but who really wants to volunteer for that?

[iamded]

Well, shoot, this is getting into dangerous territory. It's day 3 and there's 9 of us dead. With 18 of us left, assuming the scum started with 3 a side, we're sitting at a 1:2 ratio, and that's hoping the scum haven't been able to convert. I'm still suspicious of Zepher, I believe he was trying to signal the scum with his warnings and actions yesterday.

After all Pandora's shared, I don't believe her to be scum. And unless Scouty's playing everyone with his "sounding like he's pretending to be a scum to lure out the scum but is actually trying to find town allies" gambit, hm, I think he's town too.

Say Badboy, still wanna be Mayor?

[def]

By random.org's draw, #17, TinyPies is the new mayor.

You may now vote.

[Zepher]

What an odd thing to say. Hinck's 'alliance' (and I assume you mean affiliation) was only 'revealed' on his death. Should I PM him now? Now it's clear he's town?

You smell scummy Zepher.

You're ignoring my point. You shouldn't just reveal actions to unconfirmed people. I'm not suggesting you should have waited, I'm saying that it's weird that you did it at all. The vote wasn't turned against you enough for that yet. It sounds like a scum flail to me. What if he flipped scum today? You'd be dead very shortly, unless you knew somehow the scum wouldn't be killing you.

And I always have a nasty time spelling affiliation so I usually just write alliance. Aka, allegiance, but I didn't write that properly yesterday either.

[Pandora]

You shouldn't just reveal actions to unconfirmed people. I'm not suggesting you should have waited, I'm saying that it's weird that you did it at all.

At no point can anyone claim to another person they trust? Ever? Even though Scouty did the same thing? And I couldn't be sure he was town, of course not, but I think it's pretty clear that Hinck and I had been talking a lot by that point and I felt I could trust him.

The vote wasn't turned against you enough for that yet.

What would have been a better time then? Bearing in mind there were only a few hours left in the day and the big-hitters of Hinckley, Draggy and Shadows had already voted for me, and it very much looked like everyone else was following suit.

Should I have claimed at the point where my votes were in the lead? Because that would have surely happened, and I would have had very little time to claim and turn the lynch around. I felt there was very little time as it was.

It sounds like a scum flail to me. What if he flipped scum today? You'd be dead very shortly, unless you knew somehow the scum wouldn't be killing you.

Better dead very shortly after an extra night than lynched yesterday.

One minute you're saying I'm scummy and the next you're saying I'd be dead if Hinck had shown up scum, which implies you know I'm town. So the fact that you're still trying to paint me as scummy, draws my attention further onto you.

[Zepher]

Nope, you're trying to twist my words again. I was saying you felt safe claiming because you knew even if Hinck turned up scum you'd be safe. Claiming in private to a person when the vote goes against you seems like a scum flail to me.

[Pandora]

Nope, you're trying to twist my words again. I was saying you felt safe claiming because you knew even if Hinck turned up scum you'd be safe. Claiming in private to a person when the vote goes against you seems like a scum flail to me.

I didn't twist your words at all.

I took a risk claiming to Hinck because I felt my life was on the line. There's nothing more to it than that.

[Scouty]

Care to explain that at all, Scouty? One of his reads was very right? Are you telling us that we have a confirmed town, or better yet, a confirmed scum? We also know that one of his reads was wrong, because Dave flipped town, and his reads on you and Pandora were both retracted while he was still alive... so, while he wasn't the most reliable source, if you have a piece of useful information, it would be nice if you shared it with the town. At least in a more clear form, such as "we have a confirmed townie" or something along those lines. The way you've stated it right now is vague and ominous and quite frankly not helpful.

Well, I don't want to reveal too much, and I'm investigating what it means. Though, for now, I believe it's a town member I've got on my hands. Plus, we've outed enough town roles, don't you think ?

It sounds like certainty to you, but unfortunately that's a matter of interpretation. The words 'really think' are, to my mind, a stark contrast to 'believe' or 'know'. Me saying 'I really think he's scum' is me saying 'with all the information I have right now, I'm not sure, but if I had to place a bet, then I'd say the watcher is scum'. Information changes things, and I'm willing to accept that the watcher might not be scum, in fact I've already said that. I said to you that the watcher might be scum (he might) and thus it would be sensible for you to tell one person you trust his name, lest his name die with you at some point. I also said at the same time that it ran the risk of you giving a potentially townie watcher name to a potential scum. I think you have misinterpreted what I said.

But it's not the "believe" or "know", it's the modifier "really". Add in "really believe", "really know", it's the same. The "really" is the certainty aspect. Saying "I think..." would be an indicator that you had doubt...but saying "really think" tells me you believe it. If you wanted to say "with all the information I have right now, I'm not sure, but if I had to place a bet, then I'd say the watcher is scum", then just say that. From what you told me, I would not have gotten that. It's still an odd statement that you're taking steps back on.

[Pandora]

But it's not the "believe" or "know", it's the modifier "really". Add in "really believe", "really know", it's the same. The "really" is the certainty aspect. Saying "I think..." would be an indicator that you had doubt...but saying "really think" tells me you believe it. If you wanted to say "with all the information I have right now, I'm not sure, but if I had to place a bet, then I'd say the watcher is scum", then just say that. From what you told me, I would not have gotten that. It's still an odd statement that you're taking steps back on.

At the risk of sophistry, this is, as I've said, a matter of interpretation. If you'd heard me say it out loud, you would not be thinking this. Remember that British English is slightly different from American English. Words like 'really' and 'quite' can mean different things on different sides of the pond. I said what I said because I thought it was clear, which it evidently wasn't to you. Additionally "really believe" is vastly different to "really know" in my book, but apparently it isn't in yours. And I'm not taking any steps back.

[def]

Vote Tally:

Nobody

41 hours left to vote

[Pandora]

Zepher, you still haven't given good explanations about your behaviour, specifically the weird levelling-up the votes thing, and and the gambit-broadcasting. I've explained myself over and over, yet you persist in pushing at the same point and keeping the discussion today about me. All other discussion has stopped, as I suspect you hoped it would. You continue to attack me from the most unusual standpoint (by which I mean scum) and offer absolutely no opinion on anyone else whatsoever.

Right now, you are the scummiest looking person to me, however badboy and Cam come in a close second and third. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to answer questions all you like, but not for it to be the only topic of discussion today. Some people need to come back and explain themselves, and hell, the rest of you need to start giving some damn opinions.

Vote: Zepher