LEGO's Jabba's Palace, Star Wars, and accusations of racism

[def]

I think the groups have a legitimate complaint... Just not against Lego. The Star Wars movies have so much in them that isn't explicitly racist, but it's kind of racist. And it goes on into the Clone Wars series to this day (or when I last watched season 4). As much as it's not 100% consistent, there is a tendency for the smart/good guys to be European sounding, while the riffraff are more, shall I say, ethnic (think Watto in Phantom Menace, or the space pirates in clone wars). For the original Star Wars, I don't hold it so much against it, since George Lucas is a very white guy, raised in a white neighbourhood, and the 70's still weren't very racially diverse or integrated in terms of media. Why it still goes on in Star Wars is up to Lucas.

Anyway, the people lodging the argument against the set are really off-base, targeting the wrong group, and learning about Star Wars far too late. Besides, it doesn't look much like Hagia Sophia. (though I agree Jabba's hookah was an "ethnic" touch)

[Werlu Ulcur]

As much as it's not 100% consistent, there is a tendency for the smart/good guys to be European sounding, while the riffraff are more, shall I say, ethnic...

Not trying to defend Lucas here, but almost everyone does the same when it comes to Hollywood.

[def]

Not trying to defend Lucas here, but almost everyone does the same when it comes to Hollywood.

I would say up to the 1970's, but things started shifting in the 1980's, and really, only the lamest projects still work that way. Star Wars seems to be one of the few still carrying on that questionable tradition.

[Mister Phes]

Star Wars seems to be one of the few still carrying on that questionable tradition.

Why does that "bone cage" scene from Dead Man's Chest immediately spring to mind?

It seems the prisoners of "ethnic" bone cage met their doom for being dishonourable, while the prisoners of the "European" bone cage survived - that film was released in 2006.

If you bother to look you'd probably find dozen scenes containing ethnic stereotypes with questionable motives in recent films.

[def]

Why does that "bone cage" scene from Dead Man's Chest immediately spring to mind?

It seems the prisoners of "ethnic" bone cage met their doom for being dishonourable, while the prisoners of the "European" bone cage survived - that film was released in 2006.

If you bother to look you'd probably find dozen scenes containing ethnic stereotypes with questionable motives in recent films.

I don't know the Pirates movies well outside of the first. Well, if other movies do it... Honestly, I'm not bothering to look for it in any movies, but I like Star Wars, and as an adult, there's some stuff which is a little racist-looking.

I'm not saying Star Wars is the only one ("one of the few," I wrote, not "the only one"). Transformers 2 got a lot of criticism for it's 'ethnic' robots. All the same, it seems to be a trend on the decline for me, while it was the norm decades ago. Maybe not. Maybe it is still the norm. I'm not a super-cinephile. Feel free to open a topic in Community and prove me wrong. It would only show that people enjoy consuming mildly racist popcorn movies, while I would think people are beginning to become uncomfortable with them.

My main point was, I think there's legitimate reason for some groups to feel issue with the Star Wars movies, but that is nothing to do with Lego. They are simply recreating what Lucasfilm made. The original protest was misguided. Maybe they should complain about Dead Man's Chest too.

[Mister Phes]

Honestly, I'm not bothering to look for it in any movies, but I like Star Wars, and as an adult, there's some stuff which is a little racist-looking. [...] Maybe they should complain about Dead Man's Chest too.

At what point do you stop? Star Wars and Dead Man's Chest are but two examples. If you keep looking you'll find dozens more racist stereotypes in modern film. Should every single film with a racist stereotype be complained about?

But why is this limited to race? Take albinos for example (people with extremely fair skin and hair), in fiction they're often portrayed as evil characters and there was even protest over the albino character in the Da Vinci code.

Isn't vilifying someone with really white skin as bad as the racial stereotypes in Star Wars?

[Sam892]

The whole conflict argument is pointless to me. I know someone who refused to give there child any toys with guns. So the kid just made guns with his fingers.

[def]

At what point do you stop? Star Wars and Dead Man's Chest are but two examples. If you keep looking you'll find dozens more racist stereotypes in modern film. Should every single film with a racist stereotype be complained about?

But why is this limited to race? Take albinos for example (people with extremely fair skin and hair), in fiction they're often portrayed as evil characters and there was even protest over the albino character in the Da Vinci code.

Isn't vilifying someone with really white skin as bad as the racial stereotypes in Star Wars?

I suppose you have a point. I mean, the albino in Da Vinci code wasn't an individual character, but actually a representation of all albinos. While Watto was a single character, and not a species that all had things in common... Wait, it was the exact opposite of that

It's a case by case thing. Did I claim to be laying down the law I'm saying, some people have a legitimate gripe with the Star Wars movies, I'm not prescribing a solution to race portrayal in the world. Now that I've summed up my point so clearly you don't need to ask again, you can feel free to answer:

Are you saying you can stop nowhere? How many racial stereotypes are permissible? Is it fine to give a character loads of real, existing human racial stereotypes as long as they're called Jar-Jar and breathe water? If Jar-Jar was eating fried chicken and watermelon in every scene, would you accept that? At what point do you start? What is your problem with people not liking stereotypes hidden in supposed fiction?

Isn't vilifying someone with really white skin as bad as the racial stereotypes in Star Wars?

What the hell? White people have very complex portrayals in film. Very very complex. They can hold all roles. It's very very hard to vilify all white people. At this point in white society, it's near impossible. It would take a non-white society to do it at this point. White people play every role in a white-made movie that isn't white, after all. So no, in no way is villifying someone with white skin in any way as bad as the racial stereotypes in Star Wars. The absolute untrueness of such a statement says to me that you need to study more about society, history, and power, and lots of other hard to put a finger on topics. No, white people aren't in danger of being though of as villains by white people any time soon, no matter how many movies have white villains. I don't want to argue a Republican talking point, this is not what Eurobricks is for. <edit> I see you wrote "really white skin" as in an albino, and not 'white skin' as I was replying to. I'd like to just edit out the whole paragraph, but you're replying to it and don't want to seem as though I'm editing my post to favour me. Sorry, I read into something you wrote with something you didn't write. My mistake.

Accept my point that I think the group was misguided for blaming the Lego group for anything.... Please. I gotta go to bed soon.

[Mister Phes]

What is your problem with people not liking stereotypes hidden in supposed fiction?.

You're the one complaining about racial stereotypes in Star Wars, I'm looking at the broader picture. I don't have a problem with stereotypes in film because I can differentiate between fiction and reality.

So no, in no way is villifying someone with white skin in any way as bad as the racial stereotypes in Star Wars.

Aside from Watto, which Star Wars characters do you consider to be racial stereotypes?

The absolute untrueness of such a statement says to me that you need to study more about society, history, and power, and lots of other hard to put a finger on topics.

It was question for you, not a statement or my personal opinion.

I'm very well studied thank you, I just don't have a negative perception, but I do have friends from many races and some of my best childhood friends were from non-white families. We watch movies together (including Star Wars) and none of them seem concerned about racial stereotypes - at least two of these friends were Muslim as well!

What the hell? White people have very complex portrayals in film. Very very complex. They can hold all roles. It's very very hard to vilify all white people. [...] No, white people aren't in danger of being though of as villains by white people any time soon, no matter how many movies have white villains.

Have you considered you may have a somewhat negative perception of how "white societies" interpret racial stereotypes in fiction? Maybe you've had negative personal experiences with "white societies" or stereotyping, but I certainly don't see racial stereotypes in fiction and assume those characters represent an entire race in real life.

I also assume the majority of people of European decent don't think this way either (correct me if I'm wrong people of European decent), sure there are intolerant and belligerent individuals who are racist, but this is certainly not the majorities perception.

It's like you're implying a negative racial stereotype causes a "white person" to think this is indicative of an entire race.

Please. I gotta go to bed soon.

You may go to bed and respond any time you like. Or not at all, but you have provided a fascinating insight, so thank you!

[GregoryBrick]

I think there's a general consensus that the article which prompted this discussion was rather silly, but there's a few points I'd like to make.

At what point do you stop? [ . . . ] If you keep looking you'll find dozens more racist stereotypes in modern film. Should every single film with a racist stereotype be complained about?

At what point do you stop? When there is no more racial injustice, of course. And I don't know if every single film with a racist stereotype should be 'complained about', but every single film with a racist stereotype should have its use of that stereotype called into question, absolutely. I do not believe this to to be the case for the LEGO Jabba's Palace and I do not wish to the debate the Star Wars' films on this, but it's legitimate to ask the question.

Ummm... You're the one complaining about racial stereotypes in Star Wars, I'm looking at the broader picture. I don't have a problem with stereotypes in film because I can differentiate between fiction and reality.

If we look at the broader picture we will see that the problem of racial stereotypes isn't because people have trouble differentiating fiction and reality. It's because popular depictions of race, such as in hollywood film, often reflect, affirm, and sustain harmful racial distinctions.

The world which produces and reproduces racism also produces cultural products, such as movies and toys which reflect that culture - a cursory look at history will show just how much toys, films, and literature reinforce prejudice. Furthermore, that prejudice wasn't recognized as such, rather, people saw it as harmless or 'the way things were'. The same happens today. People are rarely aware of how they reproduce social inequities. Introspection ("I don't harbour racist sentiment or think bad things about people of other races") doesn't address how racism works any more than people who think they aren't affected by advertising.

I quoted you selectively but only to be succinct; I hope I did not misrepresent you. I also suspect we agree - I posted not to argue with anyone but to elaborate on some aspects of the conversation.

[Mister Phes]

At what point do you stop? When there is no more racial injustice, of course. [...]', but every single film with a racist stereotype should have its use of that stereotype called into question, absolutely.

But who decides what constitutes as a racial stereotype? Does it require a certain number of people? If so,how many? 100? 100,000? 100,000,000?

I quoted you selectively but only to be succinct; I hope I did not misrepresent you. I also suspect we agree - I posted not to argue with anyone but to elaborate on some aspects of the conversation.

You did a better job of representing me actuality - it's 5 in the morning here and I'm definitely not firing on all cylinders, so you phrased the issue far more eloquently than I can at this present time.

[Legoman of War]

I don't know what is more idiotic, the article or the rag that printed it. I wouldn't even waste my time...oh, I already did.

LMW

[Faefrost]

Would it be spoiling things to point out that the main oppressive villains in Star Wars are almost universally European White Dudes with British accents?

Really everyone is reading too much into Star Wars and using it as some sort of philosophical reflection of what goes on between their own ears. Why is Star Wars so white and British? Because principle live action photography was filmed in the 1970s London. The actor choices were mainly "pasty faced white dud", "other pasty faced white dude", and "really really pale dude".

[def]

<snip>

I asked you some direct questions, and you chose not to answer them

You're the one complaining about racial stereotypes in Star Wars, I'm looking at the broader picture.

No, I'm not complaining about it. I'm saying the stuff I said, that is: some groups have a legitimate reason to complain. I love Star Wars, mostly. I've bought thousands of dollars of Star Wars Lego, and the DVDs. It's possible to understand and respect an argument without fighting for it. I'm not fighting to end Star Wars or edit out anything. Really. Just acknowledging that it might rub some groups the wrong way and not writing them off as whiny or myopic.

[Vindicare]

Wow, this went in an interesting direction. I think people need to quit over thinking movies and just enjoy them like they're meant to be(movies in general, not just SW). No matter what anyone does, says, create, whatever, there will ALWAYS be someone(s) who complain about it. I never understood all the nitpicking people do after they've seen a movie, why can't you just watch it and enjoy it.

[Mr_Malfoy]

Aside from Watto, which Star Wars characters do you consider to be racial stereotypes?

Jar Jar Binks. That character is just dripping with black stereotypes.

[TanTile]

I think its time to close this topic, its a nonsense story that doesn't need to continue if any one is to comment on this are LFL and that's it, Lego should have hand-balled this straight to them to deal with,

The only good thing to come out of all this is free publicity for Lego...

[Sir_Basil_Ashton]

Jar Jar Binks. That character is just dripping with black stereotypes.

Interesting, I never made that connection and I still don't.

[def]

Interesting, I never made that connection and I still don't.

Maybe because you're Italian? He speaks in a way very close to the way blacks used to be portrayed in films, and acts a fair amount like it too (bumbling, needy). There were a lot of complaints when it came out, and I'm guessing the reason they died down is because everyone hated him, including kids. I'm sure if you googled jar-jar and black, you'd get a lot of hits.

[AndyC]

Fun fact: there is a list of all the things that the Mail has claimed can cause cancer and prevent it. Both lists are huge. Many things appear on both.

There's a great poster by a local artist in my local pub based on the "things that cause cancer according to the Mail" theme. For anyone unaware just how ridiculous it is "Being a Man" and "Being a Woman" are both on the list, "Smoking Cigarettes" however is not.

[Only Sinner]

The nemodian characters clearly have an east asian oriental accent. The weequay pirates are obviously yakuza. The guy's name is even japanese sounding- Hondo Ohnaka. The Twi' lek of planet Ryloth also have foreign sounding accents. Even Shimi Skywalker had a totally different accent than her own son. But how boring would it be if everyone had briitish sounding accents or just "normal" sounding names. I like the colorful characters, even the bad guys. I'm glad Star Wars suggests a racially diverse galaxy.

[Rufus]

I'm going to defend George Lucas here... sort of.

I'm glad Star Wars suggests a racially diverse galaxy.

I agree with this; however, most of the complaints against the use of 'race' in Star Wars stem from GL's rather naive approach. In creating new races and environments, I suspect he has gone for a rather stereotypical vibe for each in order to portray the principal characteristics of each faction in a way that people (specifically, the films' target audience) can relate too - by 'borrowing' from the real world. This allows the depiction of worlds and races that are exotic without being so different that the viewer cannot comprehend them (the same reason that just about all science fiction 'aliens' are humanoid).

In the case of Jabba's Palace, I imagine GL deliberately chose a pseudo-Middle Eastern 'hareem' - replete with scantily-clad dancing girls and hookah - to portray the 'seediness' of the bounty hunter way of life. If - I speculate - GL had said to the concept artists, 'think Middle Eastern,' you can see how the architectural association follows. Is this insulting? I couldn't say, but to me it's no different to the way all Britons tend to be portrayed as swaggering Cockneys or posh fops like Hugh Grant in most American cinema, and I don't find that insulting.

I do confess to feeling a little uncomfortable with the Neimoidian accent for a faction of technology traders, though. I didn't really make the connection between the Gungans and black culture, although Brian Blessed was quite powerful in disguising this, if it were intentional. And, if it were, does that imply a hidden moral message in the societal segregation of the planet of Naboo? Somehow, I doubt it.

With regard to accusations of stereotyping non-Western cultures into 'bad' roles, you have to remember that the chronologically-later films present a 'grey-and-grey morality' in what I think is one of Lucas's most successful storytelling accomplishments. And the Big Bad - the Source Of All Evil in the films - is a white man; who, as it turns out, is played by a Scotsman. Read into that what you will!

Uncomfortable though some of the racial stereotypes are in Star Wars, I certainly don't think any offence was intended. As for LEGO, they have simply imitated one of the most successful franchises of all time. Accusing TLG of racism or culturism - if it weren't originally intended to be ironic, which is a slim possibility - is trolling in the extreme.

This thread has strayed decidely off topic, and I apologise for continuing that; it is however an interesting discussion. I'm tempted to move the thread to Culture and Multimedia where it seems to me to fit best.

[Sir_Basil_Ashton]

Maybe because you're Italian? He speaks in a way very close to the way blacks used to be portrayed in films, and acts a fair amount like it too (bumbling, needy). There were a lot of complaints when it came out, and I'm guessing the reason they died down is because everyone hated him, including kids. I'm sure if you googled jar-jar and black, you'd get a lot of hits.

I'm actually an American that moved to Italy a few months ago. I actually lived in the Los Angeles area when Episode I hit theaters. I must have been living under a rock at the time because I never heard of that argument. My wife just filled me in on that.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Sir_Basil_Ashton

[Faefrost]

The nemodian characters clearly have an east asian oriental accent. The weequay pirates are obviously yakuza. The guy's name is even japanese sounding- Hondo Ohnaka. The Twi' lek of planet Ryloth also have foreign sounding accents. Even Shimi Skywalker had a totally different accent than her own son. But how boring would it be if everyone had briitish sounding accents or just "normal" sounding names. I like the colorful characters, even the bad guys. I'm glad Star Wars suggests a racially diverse galaxy.

See here is a clear example of reading too much into things. Yes there is a slight Japanese flair to Hondo's gang, just as there also is the the counterpart good character Embo. The main episodes featuring them were designed as homages to classic Akira Kurosawa films. So there is a touch of Seven Samurai going on there.

[Front]

Here is the reply from LEGO:

http://aboutus.lego....r-wars-product/

Edited January 26, 2013 by Front