LEGO LotR - general discussion

[Blazej_Holen]

I hope to see Faramir saying "The ring will go to Gondor" on the last page of The Hobbit BOFA instructions. I realy do...

[MKJoshA]

"Eomer or Faramir? Hmm, what about Legolas? Yeah, that'll work." - TLG developer

That is exaclty what will go through their minds!

[Borador]

"Eomer or Faramir? Hmm, what about Legolas? Yeah, that'll work." - TLG developer

"Legolas? No. We have enough of Legolas. We need more Gandalf."

~Other LEGO Designer

[atreyu2112]

When you say to post stuff on their Facebook page, you just post something on their wall that probably gets deleted immediately, or..?

Nope... It's still on their "Posts to page"

Maybe you can write a message for the administrator of Lego Facebook. I Had this idea last year but i did n't do that.

I have. But I can't be the only one. We have to unite here and work together. Just me posting to their wall or sending a message doesn't do much. I'm just 1 person. But if all the fans here did the same thing and "like" each others posts, then maybe the admin will alert a superior who might be able to put in a good word.

AI'm doing my part, vocalizing that at least I would love 1 more wave....

[Trunkbass]

^ I found your Gondor-post and liked it. I will try and post some LEGO LOTR requests now and then.

I agree that the only thing we can do is to spam LEGO with our wishes.

[Zilcho]

The best way would be cuuso.

[Trunkbass]

I don't think it's very likely that a LEGO LOTR Ideas set will be approved by TLC. It's just weird because they already have/had their own LOTR theme. Did a Star Wars project ever got approved on LEGO Ideas?

That being said I will still support every Middle-Earth set I come across.

[Borador]

I don't think it's very likely that a LEGO LOTR Ideas set will be approved by TLC. It's just weird because they already have/had their own LOTR theme. Did a Star Wars project ever got approved on LEGO Ideas?

That being said I will still support every Middle-Earth set I come across.

Well, Star Wars is ongoing (and will be for many years). They only reject projects that are part of ongoing licenses. If LotR ends, then LEGO might consider an Ideas project. I don't know. They haven't rejected anything in the past for being previously licensed. So maybe. Problem there is that it couldn't have any new molds. But if we got a nice Gondor set with white trees on the armor and Faramir, I'd be happy.

[Blakstone]

The IDEAS rules says that you can submit items for an existing theme but the likelihood of it being rejected due to it being something they are already working on it much higher. For most of us, we just want it to continue.

If the only way to get new LotR LEGO was to drink Tang and send in labels, I would do it.

[Lynx]

I support any decent Lord of the Rings IDEAS/ Cuusoo project simply to show that the demand for this line still exists. If even great projects struggle to make it to 3,000 why would LEGO consider making any more sets?

[Black Numenorean]

I have. But I can't be the only one. We have to unite here and work together. Just me posting to their wall or sending a message doesn't do much. I'm just 1 person. But if all the fans here did the same thing and "like" each others posts, then maybe the admin will alert a superior who might be able to put in a good word.

AI'm doing my part, vocalizing that at least I would love 1 more wave....

No problem , i will do it.

I support any decent Lord of the Rings IDEAS/ Cuusoo project simply to show that the demand for this line still exists. If even great projects struggle to make it to 3,000 why would LEGO consider making any more sets?

I agree with you and i do it too

[Trunkbass]

No problem , i will do it.

And I just put a new request on their Facebook :) feel free to like!

[Black Numenorean]

And I just put a new request on their Facebook :) feel free to like!

Can you give us the link?

[Trunkbass]

Can you give us the link?

Sorry! Here it is: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203851772430138&set=o.6665038402&type=3&theater

[Faefrost]

I don't think it's very likely that a LEGO LOTR Ideas set will be approved by TLC. It's just weird because they already have/had their own LOTR theme. Did a Star Wars project ever got approved on LEGO Ideas?

That being said I will still support every Middle-Earth set I come across.

Well, Star Wars is ongoing (and will be for many years). They only reject projects that are part of ongoing licenses. If LotR ends, then LEGO might consider an Ideas project. I don't know. They haven't rejected anything in the past for being previously licensed. So maybe. Problem there is that it couldn't have any new molds. But if we got a nice Gondor set with white trees on the armor and Faramir, I'd be happy.

The IDEAS rules says that you can submit items for an existing theme but the likelihood of it being rejected due to it being something they are already working on it much higher. For most of us, we just want it to continue.

If the only way to get new LotR LEGO was to drink Tang and send in labels, I would do it.

It's a little more complicated than the sometimes seemingly straightforward way we tend to look at things.

Ongoing licenses are a problem for a number of reasons. The biggest is pre existing art and designs. The license holder has already licensed these specific designs to Lego with the expectation that they will be used or made with no outside party involvement, and certainly no royalty mechanisms.

Plus any and every component of every set in an existing licensed theme gets extensively reviewed and approved by the licencor. It has to fit into their product marketing plans. No ifs ands or buts. If Lucasfilms says this year its all about Rebels, then that great PT or TCW set is not going to get made. If DC wants New 52 only than no Batman TAS set, etc.

There is prioritization within the internal groups at TLG. Once something is in the domain of the License group chances are it will not be released or handed off to the Ideas group which is a much lower priority. They will not do something that they can and expect to be doing as a regular widespread retail release as an exclusive ideas set. Like the licensor the internal group will have some measure of veto power over a project.

The current license expiring does NOT leave an opening for a fan designed Ideas set. If anything it vastly increases the chances of a projects failure. Remember these sets go through a business case analysis. If the line is ending than a much broader business analysis has been done and TLG has already decided not to continue it. Further it is unlikely that TLG would seek to extend a full blown retail license just for an exclusive project set. There may be some room for play here, depending on the relationships between the parties. But really chances are once Lego lets it go, they will not immediately turn around and seek to regain it or relicense any part of it.

Granted Lego does have a long history of supporting smaller niche fan markets. Trains and Technic are two prime examples. But we have never observed this where an outside license is concerned. I would not be pouring much emotional weight into the hope for an Ideas set out of Middle Earth in the near future. Even if it makes it to 10k the math and nature of business work heavily against it.

[Lynx]

How about this then?

https://ideas.lego.com/projects/70809

By far the best Minas Tirith set idea I've yet seen! There are always details one fan will like and another won't. However, this simply simply looks beautiful, is immediately recognisable, and has a great scale for a D2C model.

[Alcarin]

By far the best Minas Tirith set idea I've yet seen! There are always details one fan will like and another won't. However, this simply simply looks beautiful, is immediately recognisable, and has a great scale for a D2C model.

Yes this is the only Minas Tirith Idea that looks in scale and looks fairly good if not excellent..... if i remember that was 4000 pieces or a little more right?

But a set like this needs atleast 15 figures.....

[Alcarin]

It's a little more complicated than the sometimes seemingly straightforward way we tend to look at things.

Ongoing licenses are a problem for a number of reasons. The biggest is pre existing art and designs. The license holder has already licensed these specific designs to Lego with the expectation that they will be used or made with no outside party involvement, and certainly no royalty mechanisms.

Plus any and every component of every set in an existing licensed theme gets extensively reviewed and approved by the licencor. It has to fit into their product marketing plans. No ifs ands or buts. If Lucasfilms says this year its all about Rebels, then that great PT or TCW set is not going to get made. If DC wants New 52 only than no Batman TAS set, etc.

There is prioritization within the internal groups at TLG. Once something is in the domain of the License group chances are it will not be released or handed off to the Ideas group which is a much lower priority. They will not do something that they can and expect to be doing as a regular widespread retail release as an exclusive ideas set. Like the licensor the internal group will have some measure of veto power over a project.

The current license expiring does NOT leave an opening for a fan designed Ideas set. If anything it vastly increases the chances of a projects failure. Remember these sets go through a business case analysis. If the line is ending than a much broader business analysis has been done and TLG has already decided not to continue it. Further it is unlikely that TLG would seek to extend a full blown retail license just for an exclusive project set. There may be some room for play here, depending on the relationships between the parties. But really chances are once Lego lets it go, they will not immediately turn around and seek to regain it or relicense any part of it.

Granted Lego does have a long history of supporting smaller niche fan markets. Trains and Technic are two prime examples. But we have never observed this where an outside license is concerned. I would not be pouring much emotional weight into the hope for an Ideas set out of Middle Earth in the near future. Even if it makes it to 10k the math and nature of business work heavily against it.

BUT if Licenser aka WB in this case decides which sets are to be made, doesnt that mean LEGO has to give us those sets if they signed contract? If you words are correct then if WB decided we ought to get Gondor in wave 3, we will get it then, cos LEGO has no word in it.....

[Borador]

BUT if Licenser aka WB in this case decides which sets are to be made, doesnt that mean LEGO has to give us those sets if they signed contract? If you words are correct then if WB decided we ought to get Gondor in wave 3, we will get it then, cos LEGO has no word in it.....

But if Warner Bros says no wave three at all, then there will be no Gondor in said wave, for it won't come. If sales are bad, no one is going to want to do more. Neither WB, or TLG. Even if WB had told TLG to do a Gondor set in the contract, if both sides want out, they're getting out.

Granted we don't know how bad sales are, or if they're even bad at all. But I think it's best just to move on and support ever Ideas set we can (despite Faefrosf being right, it's still our best hope, even if that is grading on a curve to an extreme)

[Faefrost]

BUT if Licenser aka WB in this case decides which sets are to be made, doesnt that mean LEGO has to give us those sets if they signed contract? If you words are correct then if WB decided we ought to get Gondor in wave 3, we will get it then, cos LEGO has no word in it.....

Both Lego and the licensor each have an ultimate Veto over what does and does not get made. They have been fairly up front about this with the SW lines. Basically for SW Lucasfilms traditionally asks for a few specific sets or subjects to support their current marketing pushes, typically 20-30% max of the overall themes release. The rest are at Lego's discretion pending licensor approval. Although the Lucas may stear the more discretionary stuff by requesting a certain emphasis. For example sets like the Sith Fury, or the Rogue Shadow or the Ghost are very clearly sets specified by Lucasfilms to match their specific marketing needs. Whereas the more general mix of a wave may reflect just a more generalized tone, so this wave is heavy OT leading into Rebels and Ep VII, last wave was heavy PT, next wave will be heavy Rebels, etc.

But no Lego does not HAVE to give us anything. It just means that the subjects and designs are already covered and expected under the license. They have already been discussed and are considered pre existing internal subjects. Regardless of whether or not they ever see production or retail shelves. We go by what makes it to store shelves. But Lego also has to take into account internal things that we would never know about. Prototypes, design discussions, concept art. Sometimes even things that do not result in final formal licenses. As another example if someone put up a very nice Thundercats Ideas Project and it made it to 10k, it would likely be treated as a pre existing license and would fail as a result. The reason? Lego had engaged in extensive preliminary negotiations and explorations of such a license 2 years ago, making it as far as developing prototypes and tooling, before dropping the idea. We only know this because of a disgruntled Thundercats employee, but much of the initial Chima stuff evolved from the Thundercats development work. But that is enough to likely squash it as an Ideas project.

Do you think it is likely that Lego never discussed the possibility of a Minas Tirith set? Or didn't do some preliminary calculations of what would be needed for one, as part of their normal license development, before electing not to include it in one of the released waves? Because that is all it would take to make it pre-existing art under the license. To use a similar example from Star Wars, my estimation is that it is safe to assume that anything that appears on screen in either the 6 movies or The Clone Wars and Rebels would not pass an Ideas review, at least not at a standard minifig scale. Anything directly designed and put on screen by ILM or Lucasfilms animation will be covered as expected possible subjects. You would almost need to dip into the EU to find a viable Ideas project. (The Lightsabers might make it just for being so far outside the expected.)

[Alcarin]

But if Warner Bros says no wave three at all, then there will be no Gondor in said wave, for it won't come. If sales are bad, no one is going to want to do more. Neither WB, or TLG. Even if WB had told TLG to do a Gondor set in the contract, if both sides want out, they're getting out.

Granted we don't know how bad sales are, or if they're even bad at all. But I think it's best just to move on and support ever Ideas set we can (despite Faefrosf being right, it's still our best hope, even if that is grading on a curve to an extreme)

Yes but ok lets assume faefrost is right and licenser decides what sets should be made............... so do you guys believe WB would trully on purpose leave out Gondor and Witch king and Balrog?

It sounds totally dumb to me..... afterall they would want the best sales, not the worst.....

Both Lego and the licensor each have an ultimate Veto over what does and does not get made. They have been fairly up front about this with the SW lines. Basically for SW Lucasfilms traditionally asks for a few specific sets or subjects to support their current marketing pushes, typically 20-30% max of the overall themes release. The rest are at Lego's discretion pending licensor approval. Although the Lucas may stear the more discretionary stuff by requesting a certain emphasis. For example sets like the Sith Fury, or the Rogue Shadow or the Ghost are very clearly sets specified by Lucasfilms to match their specific marketing needs. Whereas the more general mix of a wave may reflect just a more generalized tone, so this wave is heavy OT leading into Rebels and Ep VII, last wave was heavy PT, next wave will be heavy Rebels, etc.

But no Lego does not HAVE to give us anything. It just means that the subjects and designs are already covered and expected under the license. They have already been discussed and are considered pre existing internal subjects. Regardless of whether or not they ever see production or retail shelves. We go by what makes it to store shelves. But Lego also has to take into account internal things that we would never know about. Prototypes, design discussions, concept art. Sometimes even things that do not result in final formal licenses. As another example if someone put up a very nice Thundercats Ideas Project and it made it to 10k, it would likely be treated as a pre existing license and would fail as a result. The reason? Lego had engaged in extensive preliminary negotiations and explorations of such a license 2 years ago, making it as far as developing prototypes and tooling, before dropping the idea. We only know this because of a disgruntled Thundercats employee, but much of the initial Chima stuff evolved from the Thundercats development work. But that is enough to likely squash it as an Ideas project.

Do you think it is likely that Lego never discussed the possibility of a Minas Tirith set? Or didn't do some preliminary calculations of what would be needed for one, as part of their normal license development, before electing not to include it in one of the released waves? Because that is all it would take to make it pre-existing art under the license. To use a similar example from Star Wars, my estimation is that it is safe to assume that anything that appears on screen in either the 6 movies or The Clone Wars and Rebels would not pass an Ideas review, at least not at a standard minifig scale. Anything directly designed and put on screen by ILM or Lucasfilms animation will be covered as expected possible subjects. You would almost need to dip into the EU to find a viable Ideas project. (The Lightsabers might make it just for being so far outside the expected.)

Yeah its all logical up to the part where there are atleast 3-4 possible sets that would INCREDIBLY boost sale (IMO) that are currently not made for unknown reasons...... and the illogical part is the fact that both LEGO and WB would logically want money, so why were those sets not created...... do you personally believe that WB would demand Pirate Ship to be made over Oliphant or is that LEGOs decision

Its also hard to compare to sw because your 20-30% effectively means like 2 sets in LOTR current arsenal of sets........... so you think WB asked for 2 sets that must be done (theoretically) and rest is LEGO choice and WB does not care as long as its under Movie material only?

To me personally it feels (more and more) WB sold both licenses together and only discussed Hobbit part and told LEGO do with LOTR more or less as you please except contract says that it must be heavy on builds (not like SW bpacks) because thats the only way to explain such irrational and less pleasing sets for public that probably broungt less revenue :)

[Faefrost]

Yes but ok lets assume faefrost is right and licenser decides what sets should be made............... so do you guys believe WB would trully on purpose leave out Gondor and Witch king and Balrog?

It sounds totally dumb to me..... afterall they would want the best sales, not the worst.....

Yeah its all logical up to the part where there are atleast 3-4 possible sets that would INCREDIBLY boost sale (IMO) that are currently not made for unknown reasons...... and the illogical part is the fact that both LEGO and WB would logically want money, so why were those sets not created...... do you personally believe that WB would demand Pirate Ship to be made over Oliphant or is that LEGOs decision

Its also hard to compare to sw because your 20-30% effectively means like 2 sets in LOTR current arsenal of sets........... so you think WB asked for 2 sets that must be done (theoretically) and rest is LEGO choice and WB does not care as long as its under Movie material only?

To me personally it feels (more and more) WB sold both licenses together and only discussed Hobbit part and told LEGO do with LOTR more or less as you please except contract says that it must be heavy on builds (not like SW bpacks) because thats the only way to explain such irrational and less pleasing sets for public that probably broungt less revenue :)

The key there is the (IMO) part of the phrase. Lego makes decisions based on a much broader amount of information and research. Things that seem obvious and sure wins to us could have been debated and decided against for any number of reasons.

Let's dissect one of your speculations. An Oliphant set. How could Lego decide to make the Pirate ship over an Oliphant? Easy, because Lego is a business and they take the entire business into perspective. You just look at it as a very narrow fan. What benefit does an Oliphant set give them? A large pricey set based on an organic figure that they don't have a lot of ability to predict LotR fan interest in. Whereas simultaneously they have Chima reaching year three and planning a Mammoth or elephant tribe. The large organic Elephant type set is a better fit for Chima where it can be better decked out with play features and is much more highly marketable to kids. Whereas the Pirate ship lets Lego leverage some of their other classic fan bases. It gives the ship fans a ship for the year and something different. It gives LotR fans a broad usage set that accounts for both the Army of the Dead and the arrival at Gondor, and it lets them sneak in a Peter Jackson minifig. You might not believe this but it would not surprise me to find that the Pirate Ship sold substantially better than Helms Deep (which as I think we pretty well covered, almost everyone here bought at deep discount).

We, or at least you are predicting sales based on your driving passions. Lego basis their predictions on a complex web of data, research and product synergy.

We know they explored a Balrog set. Pure speculation on why they did not proceed with it can lead us down a few paths. The most likely being they did not like the results. It may have been felt that it was too much of a Bionacle/Constraction build with not enough traditional bricks. They may have felt that new deeply expensive wings would be required. They may have felt that it was too scary or demonic looking for a kids toy. They've been getting a lot of weird protests lately and may have simply decided this was a war not worth fighting for yet another Gandalf fig.

A Witch King and Fel Beast set probably came down to new molds for the Fel Beast. If they were doing Smaug for Hobbit it would be jarring to do the Fel Beast as brick built. And if given the choice between the two WB would have gone for or insisted on Smaug as it is the current marketing drive.

And as for Minas Tirith, it may have simply been a matter of scale and size vs viable price points? It may have been a reflection of how Helms Deep sold?

As far as characters? Eowyn was the only real loss to the main story characters. Faramir is and always was a pipe dream. The best hope for him was always a S@H bonus fig. Gondor soldiers? It is a toss up. Generic figs really don't drive set sales outside of a very narrow market niche. Nice to accommodate, but other things might take priority.

[BrickBob Studpants]

Well, technically, we did get Eowyn - as a board game microfig

I agree with Faefrost, we simply don't have any real insight into the inner workings of TLG, so we can't relate to how and why certain decisions were made. Personally, I'm trying to focus on what we got rather than what we didn't Remember the rumors back in 2012 stating that there would be only one LOTR wave in total? Now that would have sucked

[atreyu2112]

There in NO good reason for them to NOT release another wave of 4-6 sets, but there are plenty of great reasons for them to actually do it. And we here are just one of those reasons. Lego does not seem like a company that doesn't finish what it started. To leave out MAJOR characters, beasts and factions falls on them alone... and leaves this license FAR from finished.

Lord of the Rings is FOREVER weather there is a movie or not. The books were there LONG before a marketing campaign and fandom runs SO deeply, even MAJOR music bands like LED ZEPPELIN & RUSH have written many songs about it.

The desire for them to make this last wave happen will NEVER go away. They can either get it over with now, or be nagged endlessly until they do finish it up properly... at least in the same way they represented The Hobbit.

FINISH WHAT YOU STARTED LEGO!

[Borador]

There in NO good reason for them to NOT release another wave of 4-6 sets, but there are plenty of great reasons for them to actually do it. And we here are just one of those reasons. Lego does not seem like a company that doesn't finish what it started. To leave out MAJOR characters, beasts and factions falls on them alone... and leaves this license FAR from finished.

Lord of the Rings is FOREVER weather there is a movie or not. The books were there LONG before a marketing campaign and fandom runs SO deeply, even MAJOR music bands like LED ZEPPELIN & RUSH have written many songs about it.

The desire for them to make this last wave happen will NEVER go away. They can either get it over with now, or be nagged endlessly until they do finish it up properly... at least in the same way they represented The Hobbit.

FINISH WHAT YOU STARTED LEGO!

If sales aren't going well, that's a perfect reason not to do more. We really don't know what goes on in there. It doesn't matter how many people like it. It matters how many people bought the sets. There is overlap, sure. But if sales aren't doing well, then continuing would be a bad move.

Can you name any other theme, besides Star Wars, that they have "finished."

Harry Potter is the only one that comes to mind. But I really didn't care for any of the films after the 2nd one, so I have no idea about what is or is not there.