LEGO LotR - general discussion

[Borador]

All they had was that mask? Really? They didn't even reveal the line? Or anything?

I don't mind that it was Bionicle, in fact, I'm glad it was. It was such a core part of LEGO (even if I didn't care for it after the first few waves) that it just felt.. wrong when it ended. I'm glad its back.

But really? Just that mask?

Lord of the Rings is forever. I'd bet that it'll be around as long as humans are, in some form or another. And I bet LEGO will be around for a similarly long period of time.

But if LEGO does not want to make any more Lord of the Rings, that is their decision. If they have truly made that choice, they made it based on fact and research. It does not matter how prominent or present it is. It doesn't matter how long it has or will be around. What matters is how many sets sold. It may be alive and well, but that doesn't mean the LEGO sets sold or are selling. And that doesn't mean they will sell. It is alive and well, but that doesn't mean anything.

Fortunately, we don't know that the sets didn't sell well. It sure seems that way, but I don't think there's any real proof. So maybe. Maybe there might be more... I hope there might be more. I really hope. But I think at the end of the day, all the evidence says its done, so I wouldn't get my hopes up just because the property is popular. Speed Racer was a popular property (even if the movie wasn't). Pirates of the Caribbean, Avatar: The Last Airbender, and Spongebob were popular too (although Pirates is coming back, they say).

They don't have the same status as Lord of the Rings? True. But they do appeal better to the target audience (or they did, Avatar has been off the air a few years). And they still went. I'm not saying if its done either way, all I'm saying is not to get your hopes up since this is not looking good...

[Alcarin]

All they had was that mask? Really? They didn't even reveal the line? Or anything?

I don't mind that it was Bionicle, in fact, I'm glad it was. It was such a core part of LEGO (even if I didn't care for it after the first few waves) that it just felt.. wrong when it ended. I'm glad its back.

But really? Just that mask?

Lord of the Rings is forever. I'd bet that it'll be around as long as humans are, in some form or another. And I bet LEGO will be around for a similarly long period of time.

But if LEGO does not want to make any more Lord of the Rings, that is their decision. If they have truly made that choice, they made it based on fact and research. It does not matter how prominent or present it is. It doesn't matter how long it has or will be around. What matters is how many sets sold. It may be alive and well, but that doesn't mean the LEGO sets sold or are selling. And that doesn't mean they will sell. It is alive and well, but that doesn't mean anything.

Fortunately, we don't know that the sets didn't sell well. It sure seems that way, but I don't think there's any real proof. So maybe. Maybe there might be more... I hope there might be more. I really hope. But I think at the end of the day, all the evidence says its done, so I wouldn't get my hopes up just because the property is popular. Speed Racer was a popular property (even if the movie wasn't). Pirates of the Caribbean, Avatar: The Last Airbender, and Spongebob were popular too (although Pirates is coming back, they say).

They don't have the same status as Lord of the Rings? True. But they do appeal better to the target audience (or they did, Avatar has been off the air a few years). And they still went. I'm not saying if its done either way, all I'm saying is not to get your hopes up since this is not looking good...

The problem is, its LEGO fault if LOTR did not sale well, or if you want to word it otherwise its their license negotiation problem but even then its not really, if they could've made 1 battle pack in terms of UHA army, they could've made 5 similar for everything from Orcs, to haradrim and Gondorians.

That would sell alot more than Wizards battles, Elrond's Councils and even Ship...... so if LEGO decided to cut LOTR due to sales, they cut it because designs of LEGO team(s) unless they expected we wil lbuy everything x100 because it has LOTR on the box?

[Faefrost]

The problem is, its LEGO fault if LOTR did not sale well, or if you want to word it otherwise its their license negotiation problem but even then its not really, if they could've made 1 battle pack in terms of UHA army, they could've made 5 similar for everything from Orcs, to haradrim and Gondorians.

That would sell alot more than Wizards battles, Elrond's Councils and even Ship...... so if LEGO decided to cut LOTR due to sales, they cut it because designs of LEGO team(s) unless they expected we wil lbuy everything x100 because it has LOTR on the box?

Lego has done better with a Middle Earth toy license than any other company that has ever entered into one, save perhaps Games Workshop? It's just not a property that sells children's toys hand over fist. This is I think the 4 TH major push for it I have seen since I was a kid, and by far the most succesful of them all. But it doesn't change the fact that there seems to be a limited or niche market for the stuff. There is a reason why Lego was the only toy maker that came back after TUJ. We can cry, moan, curse Lego all we want, but we can't make them grow a market that has been shown over and over to not really be there. We've gotten 5 waves of Middle Earth subjects. That pretty well doubles most other licenses and surpasses our reasonable expectations. Even without a Gondor set.

[cullmancreations]

We have had a good run and I think the situation now with the fans of the middle earth theme is when you give a mouse a cookie(Lego giving us a Middle earth theme) he's gonna want a glass of milk(Lego ending the theme and us wanting more sets).

[Deathleech]

Lego has done better with a Middle Earth toy license than any other company that has ever entered into one, save perhaps Games Workshop?

I dunno, I would say ToyBiz also did a much better job than Lego. They covered pretty much every main character, minor character, variations of said characters, and even did tons of different bad guy factions and creatures. It's hard to compare Lego (now the biggest toy company) to a smaller company like The Bridge Driect though. BD doesn't even make the top ten list of toy manufactures while Lego sits a comfy 4+ billion dollars in revenue above them.

[Hammerhand]

We have had a good run and I think the situation now with the fans of the middle earth theme is when you give a mouse a cookie(Lego giving us a Middle earth theme) he's gonna want a glass of milk(Lego ending the theme and us wanting more sets).

More like giving the mouse a cookie baked with no sugar (Gondor).

[Alcarin]

Lego has done better with a Middle Earth toy license than any other company that has ever entered into one, save perhaps Games Workshop? It's just not a property that sells children's toys hand over fist. This is I think the 4 TH major push for it I have seen since I was a kid, and by far the most succesful of them all. But it doesn't change the fact that there seems to be a limited or niche market for the stuff. There is a reason why Lego was the only toy maker that came back after TUJ. We can cry, moan, curse Lego all we want, but we can't make them grow a market that has been shown over and over to not really be there. We've gotten 5 waves of Middle Earth subjects. That pretty well doubles most other licenses and surpasses our reasonable expectations. Even without a Gondor set.

And exactly thats the problem.... and because its not a ''property that sells children's toys hand over fist'' they should've designed sets more according to AFOLs and less towards kids........

Noone will ever convince me that kids would buy less Gondor army battle pack than they did Elrond's council and AFOLS would buy the same as they did Elrond's Council.......... Just as noone would convince me the before said about Pirate Ship, all friends i know (or huge majoriy) who are Pirate lovers are either indifferent towards the ship or dislike it, because it does not look like classic pirate ship, so they will wait for next years Pirates for a ''proper'' one (better than LOTR one for sure)

So what is to say about LEGO decisions if they pick up a line that sells bad for kids and good with niche market of AFOLS and make it for kids and then decide to cut it cos sales were poor and AFOLs like me refused to buy 20x Elrond's council but would surely buy 20x Gondor battle pack for the same price point................ hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Blazej_Holen]

And exactly thats the problem.... and because its not a ''property that sells children's toys hand over fist'' they should've designed sets more according to AFOLs and less towards kids........

Noone will ever convince me that kids would buy less Gondor army battle pack than they did Elrond's council and AFOLS would buy the same as they did Elrond's Council.......... Just as noone would convince me the before said about Pirate Ship, all friends i know (or huge majoriy) who are Pirate lovers are either indifferent towards the ship or dislike it, because it does not look like classic pirate ship, so they will wait for next years Pirates for a ''proper'' one (better than LOTR one for sure)

So what is to say about LEGO decisions if they pick up a line that sells bad for kids and good with niche market of AFOLS and make it for kids and then decide to cut it cos sales were poor and AFOLs like me refused to buy 20x Elrond's council but would surely buy 20x Gondor battle pack for the same price point................ hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

So thats it for your personal sugestions and thoughts, but even though that I agree (mostly with u) where you can get those general information about what people like or not? From few guys from your neiberhood or where? :) Maybe a proper analysis with thousands of respondents wil l tall us something, but this is only soome presumtion based on your own way what you dislike or whatever...

Pirate Ship is strange choice for set, but I love those ghostly soldiers and it works as a playset on its own...and Council...I thing that we just miss some more piecefull lokations in LOTR series, every other set depicts some conflict (battle at Helms Deep, Moria, Shelob, Black Gate, Saruman vs Gandalf, Weathertop etc...

Gondor army is wet dream for us, fans, but what can we do? This moaning is ... just long and exhausting :)

[Mr. Cube]

I think that good indicator that Alcarin is right are plenty of Council of Elrond sets on the shelves in shops (and auction portals), while MEA and UHA (especially) dissapeared from the stores quickly. I like Council of Elrond set and I agree that it´s good to have some peaceful set, while the other ones are about conflicts. But I think that nobody would complain, if there were Council of Elrond AND some set like UHA (but reversed with more Rohans, with Gondorians and other factions). The problem is not existence of CoE, problem is an absence of an army-builder, IMHO.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Mr. Cube

[bachamn]

I think that good indicator that Alcarin is right are plenty of Council of Elrond sets on the shelves in shops (and auction portals), while MEA and UHA (especially) dissapeared from the stores quickly.

Well nothing is universal; my local TRU has multiples of both MEA and Council of Elrond on the shelves at the moment, next to a few LotR Barrel Escape and Mines of Moria. They still don't have the new Hobbit sets out though ;) My local K-Mart still had Weathertop up until about a month ago.

UHA is the only one that I really haven't seen on shelves in a while so people for sure were snatching that one up

Edited October 16, 2014 by bachamn

[sahidko]

I agree with Alcarin that if the sales had been bad it's primarily fault of LEGO. Because whether you design for kids or AFOLs you should use the most famous characters and locations and not somebody from extended edition of one of three movies, period..(don't get me wrong, i like Mouth of Sauron as a minifig, but why he was picked instead of some significantly more important characters will always remain mystery to me).

[Alcarin]

So thats it for your personal sugestions and thoughts, but even though that I agree (mostly with u) where you can get those general information about what people like or not? From few guys from your neiberhood or where? :) Maybe a proper analysis with thousands of respondents wil l tall us something, but this is only soome presumtion based on your own way what you dislike or whatever...

Pirate Ship is strange choice for set, but I love those ghostly soldiers and it works as a playset on its own...and Council...I thing that we just miss some more piecefull lokations in LOTR series, every other set depicts some conflict (battle at Helms Deep, Moria, Shelob, Black Gate, Saruman vs Gandalf, Weathertop etc...

Gondor army is wet dream for us, fans, but what can we do? This moaning is ... just long and exhausting :)

No thats my response if LEGO or anyone says LOTR was cut short due to bad sales.....noone else but LEGO is responsible for bad sales, or better say their designers and their license negotiators (if we blame it on license but I just dont see license FORBIDDING Gondor soldiers lol)

Now if we think of it like that: Kids did not care for LOTR (mostly) but many AFOLs did, and LEGO designed LOTR (sets) for kids (mostly) and kids ignored it (mostly) and AFOLS were disappointed (mostly) (lets ignore the fact that we shoudl be happy we got it at all, because now we have/had it)

Would it not be better if LEGO designed LOTR for AFOLs because obviously kids were ignoring it (mostly) and atleast when it was cut short, AFOLs would get alot more what they wanted, so atleast a part of community was happy? To me its a no brainer.... its probably a bad research done by LEGO about the biggest question, do kids care about LOTR?

[bachamn]

do kids care about LOTR?

TBH I'm unsure what it is about Star Wars, other than the fact that Disney now owns it now, that makes it such a kid-friendly property. I've loved Tolkien since I first read The Hobbit at 9, but I also liked Star Wars for my part so I get that appeal too.

I just can't put my finger on what it is that keeps Middle Earth from being more popular with kids; it's perfect fantasy. You can say it's geared towards a more mature audience, but Star Wars entertains some relatively mature themes and has enough violence in it that you could argue it's not really geared towards young children either. The prequels clearly downed the target demo by a few notches but so did The Hobbit, relative to LotR.

[Anexcuse]

TBH I'm unsure what it is about Star Wars, other than the fact that Disney now owns it now, that makes it such a kid-friendly property. I've loved Tolkien since I first read The Hobbit at 9, but I also liked Star Wars for my part so I get that appeal too.

I just can't put my finger on what it is that keeps Middle Earth from being more popular with kids; it's perfect fantasy. You can say it's geared towards a more mature audience, but Star Wars entertains some relatively mature themes and has enough violence in it that you could argue it's not really geared towards young children either. The prequels clearly downed the target demo by a few notches but so did The Hobbit, relative to LotR.

The problem is that LOTR has no cartoon/show to support it, if they had a Hobbit or LOTR show (not live-action) children would love it and possibly buy sets. As well as that, LEGO Star Wars have many "impulse" sets that include lots of playability as well as battle packs for even more fun with their new blasters.

And you have to think about it, if a kid is neutral in terms of Fantasy/Sci-Fi orientation, would he/she rather buy four battle packs, including sixteen troops for "huge" battle scenes and maybe build their own scenery or even use furniture, or would they buy one set (MEA) that includes a few elves a warg and a couple orcs with a fort that will probably get dismantled anyways. Of course they would buy more quantity and even then, the quality is on par especially if you are talking about the 2015 sets coming soon.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Anexcuse

[Bycougars]

No thats my response if LEGO or anyone says LOTR was cut short due to bad sales.....noone else but LEGO is responsible for bad sales, or better say their designers and their license negotiators (if we blame it on license but I just dont see license FORBIDDING Gondor soldiers lol)

Now if we think of it like that: Kids did not care for LOTR (mostly) but many AFOLs did, and LEGO designed LOTR (sets) for kids (mostly) and kids ignored it (mostly) and AFOLS were disappointed (mostly) (lets ignore the fact that we shoudl be happy we got it at all, because now we have/had it)

Would it not be better if LEGO designed LOTR for AFOLs because obviously kids were ignoring it (mostly) and atleast when it was cut short, AFOLs would get alot more what they wanted, so atleast a part of community was happy? To me its a no brainer.... its probably a bad research done by LEGO about the biggest question, do kids care about LOTR?

I couldn't agree more. I keep hearing how LOTR didn't sell well because the kids don't like it. Well then they could have done one of two things. They could either direct at AFOL's and make the sets bigger and better, or they could have made the sets with more creatures and army builders that would attract the kids, and cheaper sets. Most of the LOTR sets have been in the 30-80 dollar price range which doesn't attract a lot of kids. You need more sets in the 10-25 price range if you want to get more kids in on the theme. Personally I think that they should have done more ultimate collectors series sets like tower of orthanc which has sold very well. They really should have done a Minas Tirith similar to this one: https://ideas.lego.com/projects/36275. I think that there sales would be good on ultimate collectors series sets, which would allow them to get good detail on the sets.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Bycougars

[Deathleech]

Well nothing is universal; my local TRU has multiples of both MEA and Council of Elrond on the shelves at the moment, next to a few LotR Barrel Escape and Mines of Moria. They still don't have the new Hobbit sets out though ;) My local K-Mart still had Weathertop up until about a month ago.

Council of Elrond came out six months before Mirkwood elf Army though...

Regardless TRU is a poor indicator of anything. They jack their prices up so high they have sets LONG after any other retailer carries them. I will say CoE was one of the few sets I actually found at Target at deep discount. They had TONS of them left even after the other sets in the same wave were long gone. They had to discount them to $18 to finally clear them out which was almost a 50% reduction in price. I never saw MEA or UHA on clearance/sale at Target.

I just can't put my finger on what it is that keeps Middle Earth from being more popular with kids; it's perfect fantasy. You can say it's geared towards a more mature audience, but Star Wars entertains some relatively mature themes and has enough violence in it that you could argue it's not really geared towards young children either.

The original three Star Wars movies were all rated PG which is what, ages 6-12? This is the ideal demographic for toys . The LotR films are all rated PG-13 which is 13+. SW basically captures the perfect age range for toys while LotR is at the very end of the spectrum when many kids are getting out of toys and into other hobbies. Add on to that SW is a merchandising juggernaut with all the cartoons, books, tie-ins, etc. constantly being pumped out and it's no wonder SW toys are a huge hit. I mean when is the last time you saw a LotR cartoon outside the movies twenty years ago, or a cereal promotion?

[Bycougars]

The original three Star Wars movies were all rated PG which is what, ages 6-12? This is the ideal demographic for toys . The LotR films are all rated PG-13 which is 13+. SW basically captures the perfect age range for toys while LotR is at the very end of the spectrum when many kids are getting out of toys and into other hobbies. Add on to that SW is a merchandising juggernaut with all the cartoons, books, tie-ins, etc. constantly being pumped out and it's no wonder SW toys are a huge hit. I mean when is the last time you saw a LotR cartoon outside the movies twenty years ago, or a cereal promotion?

Yes, LOTR is definately a better theme for AFOL. However, LOTR is still a castle like theme so I think that even for those kids who haven't seen the movies some of the sets are still good. Lego should have stuck to more of the castle structures such as Osgiliath and Minas Tirith. Sets like the council of elrond are not appealing to those who aren't fans of the movies.

[Deathleech]

Oh I totally agree, and I agree with what other people like Alcarin were saying before. It seems like Lego just couldn't decide which direction to take their LotR theme. Do they cater more to adults with sets like Council of Elrond, army builders, and throwing in figures like the Mouth of Sauron? Or, do they try to appeal more to kids with play features and lots of main characters placed throughout waves? It seems like Lego couldn't really decide and ended up not really pleasing either crowd as much as they could.

Personally, I am really surprised we didn't see more creatures and vehicles. Shelob was a fantastic set and I could easily have seen Lego making a $20 Treebeard/Grond set, a $40 Balrog/Witch King on Fel Beast vs Eowyn, and a $60 Mumakil. I think these would of had a lot of appeal to both LotR AND fantasy fans, much like the Pirate Ship Ambush set was suppose to appeal to ship fans.

As is it's really hard to be happy with the LotR wave with so much wasted potential. We could of had army builders, beautiful locations, and tons of amazing creatures. I think Lego could have done a much better job than they did appealing to AFOLs and kids alike. Council of Elrond should have really been replaced with a Gondor Soldier/Mordor Orc Army builder and the Pirate Ship Ambush set should have been something Gondor based with the Witch King on a Fel Beast and Eowyn. I don't think anyone would complain if we got that at the cost of Elrond (who is in other sets anyways), Arwen (who has a MUCH more minor role than Eowyn), and the Undead Soldiers (who are seen less than the Gondor Soldiers).

[bachamn]

The original three Star Wars movies were all rated PG which is what, ages 6-12? This is the ideal demographic for toys .

I think if the original SW trilogy were released today it would earn a higher age rating, but maybe that's just me.

I do think it mostly has to do with the marketing push for SW being so omnipresent. Kids (and adults, truthfully) tend to like what advertisements tell them to like and won't bother to explore what else is out there. It's very easy for a kid to get infatuated with Star Wars on this premise simply because you can't find a toy store that doesn't have a whole wall full of SW stuff.

[Sir Gareth]

The original three Star Wars movies were all rated PG which is what, ages 6-12? This is the ideal demographic for toys . The LotR films are all rated PG-13 which is 13+.

I think if the original SW trilogy were released today it would earn a higher age rating, but maybe that's just me.

The PG-13 rating was created in 1984 after the release of Temple of Doom and Gremlins, two movies targeted towards kids but deemed too violent.

The Original Trilogy was released before it ever even existed.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Sir Gareth

[Deathleech]

The PG-13 rating was created in 1984 after the release of Temple of Doom and Gremlins, two movies targeted towards kids but deemed too violent.

The Original Trilogy was released before it ever even existed.

Except of the six SW movies released, all but one were rated PG. Phantom Menace came out in 1999 and Attack of the Clones in 2002, right around the same time the LotR movies were released and they both received PG ratings while all the LotR films received PG-13. Only Revenge of the Sith received a PG-13 rating and that was most likely due to Anakin being horribly burned and mutilated at the end.

[TheWorldAhead]

Except of the six SW movies released, all but one were rated PG. Phantom Menace came out in 1999 and Attack of the Clones in 2002, right around the same time the LotR movies were released and they both received PG ratings while all the LotR films received PG-13. Only Revenge of the Sith received a PG-13 rating and that was most likely due to Anakin being horribly burned and mutilated at the end.

And yet, as has been said elsewhere, that very scene was depicted in LEGO form in the first wave of Revenge of the Sith sets in 2005:

http://brickset.com/...-Transformation

I can't really understand the apparent lack of success for LEGO LOTR, but I suppose we have to keep in mind that a huge part of the LEGO consumers wasn't even alive when Fellowship was released.

[Rconn0]

All these ideas are great. here is what I really hope to see: ( based on the movies not the books)

The Paths of the Dead

A medium sized temple-like structure with a few columns and a back wall ( kind of like the Indiana Jones "well of souls" set. It would have a scull dropping function and a good deal of gold/silver stuff. Minifigs: Aragon, gimli, Legolas, the king of the dead and an undead soldier. Probably around 500 pieces and 50 or so $.

Battle of pelanor fields

Scenery parts like small hills or bushes, Oliphaunt with battle tower on top, fell beast probably built like an average lego dragon, and maybe a smaller siege machine. Minifigures: The witch king, Eowyn, merry, a horse, (if that counts as a minifigure) Oliphaunt driver, and a Haradrim soldier. Around 300 pieces and about 30$

Minas Tirith

A gate and gate tower, with walls on each side, a few smaller buildings behind the gate and grond. Minifigures: Gandalf the white, pippin, 2 Gondorian soldiers, gothmog, and 3 mordor orcs. Around 800 pieces and about 90$

[PromocjaLego]

I think, Lego end LOTR line sets.

[TheWorldAhead]

I think, Lego end LOTR line sets.

Well, I think so too. Some days I want this topic closed, and some days I just desperately want to post something hopeful or observant here.