LEGO LotR - general discussion

[Ardelon]

No thats my response if LEGO or anyone says LOTR was cut short due to bad sales.....noone else but LEGO is responsible for bad sales, or better say their designers and their license negotiators (if we blame it on license but I just dont see license FORBIDDING Gondor soldiers lol)

Now if we think of it like that: Kids did not care for LOTR (mostly) but many AFOLs did, and LEGO designed LOTR (sets) for kids (mostly) and kids ignored it (mostly) and AFOLS were disappointed (mostly) (lets ignore the fact that we shoudl be happy we got it at all, because now we have/had it)

Would it not be better if LEGO designed LOTR for AFOLs because obviously kids were ignoring it (mostly) and atleast when it was cut short, AFOLs would get alot more what they wanted, so atleast a part of community was happy? To me its a no brainer.... its probably a bad research done by LEGO about the biggest question, do kids care about LOTR?

I dont think we can say kids ignored LotR - Im prety sure the vast majority of sets were bought by or for kids. If the percentage of AFOLs as part of the customer composition is accurate, then aiming their sets at AFOLs would mean a far bigger loss for TLG.

It doesnt have to be just TLG who is responsable for bad sales, it could be simply low demand. I would agree that SW is much better at creating and sustaining demand based on reasons mentioned in the posts above.

[Deathleech]

And yet, as has been said elsewhere, that very scene was depicted in LEGO form in the first wave of Revenge of the Sith sets in 2005:

http://brickset.com/...-Transformation

Ya, I have no idea what Lego is thinking sometimes. They included the Mouth of Sauron in the Black Gates set and all he has is a few lines of dialogue and then gets beheaded. For a toy company so adamant about steering away from violence you would think they would stay clear of these scenes, but nope...

[Blakstone]

I think they did Black Gate so they could have the eagle for the Orthanc. They were trying to please the fans by adding the Mouth of Sauron.

Assuming the rubber head piece mold costs the same as a ABS mold, they could have given us a new orc helm and print. Even if they did that, many would decry the set for not having Gondor soldiers.

The Hobbit sets showed me that LEGO believes that kids don't want to army build unnamed good guys. We might have got a Faramir that might have been repurposed if there was a third wave. But I think that was it.

[Anexcuse]

The Hobbit sets showed me that LEGO believes that kids don't want to army build unnamed good guys.

Star Wars Battle-Packs?

EDIT: Never mind I read what you said wrong, I thought you had said that YOU don't believe that, my bad.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Anexcuse

[Alcarin]

I dont think we can say kids ignored LotR - Im prety sure the vast majority of sets were bought by or for kids. If the percentage of AFOLs as part of the customer composition is accurate, then aiming their sets at AFOLs would mean a far bigger loss for TLG.

It doesnt have to be just TLG who is responsable for bad sales, it could be simply low demand. I would agree that SW is much better at creating and sustaining demand based on reasons mentioned in the posts above.

My words are meant if LEGO (or anyone else who unofficially claims) that LOTR was cut short due to bad sales..... if we consider such argument as correct then its only LEGOs fault for selling badly and not our problem if we did not want to eat their bad choices and buy 20x Elrond's council and Black Gates and Ship ambushes.....

I also am 99.9999999% that license negotiators would NOT (EVER) forbid LEGO to exclude Gondor.... that is purely on LEGO decisions and its inexcusable.

[Galactic13]

IMO, if the original Star Wars films came out today, I think they would be much darker and be PG-13 films. In fact I have very litle reason to think that Episode 7 will not be PG-13. Lord of the Rings will never have the appeal as Star Wars (or DC and Marvel for that matter). What drives Star Wars is it's huge influence on our world. Go up to someone and say "These aren't the droids your looking for" and they will say "that's from Star Wars". Go up to someone and say "You shall not pass" and they'll be like "what movie is that from?" Now I know I'm generalizing, but not that much.

[Deathleech]

With Disney now owning Star Wars I wouldn't be so sure. My guess is maybe one of the upcoming three movies will have a Pg-13 rating, but the rest will be PG as all other SW films have been save Revenge of the Sith. The fact they use lasers and lightsabers as the primary weapons means no blood which really helps get them the PG rating. They would have to have some REALLY dark scenes, or a lot of maimings. Even Phantom Menace was only PG and it had Darth Maul sliced in half.

[MAB]

They included the Mouth of Sauron in the Black Gates set and all he has is a few lines of dialogue and then gets beheaded. For a toy company so adamant about steering away from violence you would think they would stay clear of these scenes, but nope...

This is how it happened:

Design group meeting: We should have a Witch King in this wave.

Designer 1: OK, I'll do him.

Unfortunately the designer couldn't be bothered to sit through nine hours and watched the films on 30x speed, mistaking Mouth of Sauron for Witch King.

Designer 1: here he is.

Design team: Perfect (also not having sat through nine hours).

Designer 2: And here is a pirate ship from the film (also having skipped through at 30x, randomly stopping on one scene with a ship in it).

Design team: that's us done on LOTR, let's get busy redesigning Azog's face for a major update.

[IvanStorm]

This is how it happened:

Design group meeting: We should have a Witch King in this wave.

Designer 1: OK, I'll do him.

Unfortunately the designer couldn't be bothered to sit through nine hours and watched the films on 30x speed, mistaking Mouth of Sauron for Witch King.

Designer 1: here he is.

Design team: Perfect (also not having sat through nine hours).

Designer 2: And here is a pirate ship from the film (also having skipped through at 30x, randomly stopping on one scene with a ship in it).

Design team: that's us done on LOTR, let's get busy redesigning Azog's face for a major update.

I know you're joking, but most likely the actual motivations were:

Mouth Of Sauron:

- We have this eagle mold for Orthanc, what else can we do with it?

- Well, the battle at the Black Gates is a pretty exciting moment in the movies, and it has eagles, how about we do that?

- Sounds good, but we need some named evil character to oppose the good guys.

- Eh, too bad Sauron doesn't show up - it's just nameless orcs. No, wait, there was that Mouth Of Sauron guy, right? Only appeared in the EE, but he'll have to do.

- Alright, let's do it.

Pirate Ship

- So, we need a big set for the new LotR wave, what's it gonna be?

- Minas Tirith for sure!

- Nah, we're gonna leave that for the grand finale in wave 3. What else do we have?

- Minas Morgul? Edoras? Mount Doom? Osgiliath? I don't know...

- Boring / done Rohan already / won't make a good big set / these are just grey ruins / reasons, reasons... Is there anything in LotR that is not just a bunch of rocks?

- Well, there were those pirate ships, but they only appeared for like a couple of minutes...

- But people love ships and pirates, right? It will look cool and people will buy it for sure.

- Oh well, let's go with that.

[bachamn]

Pirate Ship

- So, we need a big set for the new LotR wave, what's it gonna be?

- Minas Tirith for sure!

- Nah, we're gonna leave that for the grand finale in wave 3. What else do we have?

- Minas Morgul? Edoras? Mount Doom? Osgiliath? I don't know...

- Boring / done Rohan already / won't make a good big set / these are just grey ruins / reasons, reasons... Is there anything in LotR that is not just a bunch of rocks?

- Well, there were those pirate ships, but they only appeared for like a couple of minutes...

- But people love ships and pirates, right? It will look cool and people will buy it for sure.

- Oh well, let's go with that.

It seems like most everyone hates the ship set, and in context of the other sets that never got made I can understand, but it's not like the concept of the set is that absurd. The arrival of Aragorn with the Army of the Dead, via ship, is an extremely significant moment; he's leading an army of oathbreakers into battle, which not only serves as the turning moment for the Pelennor fields battle; it signifies the literal returning of the king since only he would have the ability to command them.

From a designer's perspective having the corsair ship set is a sensible way to recreate this scenario in a playset. It includes both the King of the Dead and some undead soldiers alongside the heroes. The only other option to have all these in a set would be making an entire 'Paths of the Dead/City of the Dead' set, would would have needed to be much larger and arguably would be another rubble/rock set.I also suspect that somewhere in the contractual agreement PJ required that they would make a figure of him and that had something to do with the decision, but that's just my crazy speculation. ;)

Now, is it annoying that they created this set and didn't make a set for their destination? (Pelennor Fields or at least, Minas Tirith) Absolutely, but that's a different discussion really. Don't hate on the ship, I like my glowing undead guys. :)

[Ql97]

Couldn't agree with you more. The Dead Men of Dunharrow look pretty awesome.

As for the Mouth of Sauron, he was the only named bad guy within a hundred miles of the Gate. I also think he looks pretty awesome.

[Blakstone]

That pirate ship was a fun set to build and it looks great. My only nitpick is that they included Gimli in it. We could have used a random orc or pirate instead.

But that is really the point of it. I think most of the complaints are about what we didn't get. I don't begrudge the wave 2 sets... just that there is not a wave 3.

[Deathleech]

Couldn't agree with you more. The Dead Men of Dunharrow look pretty awesome.

I agree. I guess the Corsair is ok looking too, but he's not really that needed or exciting, especially with only one of him (even if it is the PJ Corsair). Unfortunately these are the only cool figures in the set. That leaves the other half of the set with duds. I understanding putting Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli in the set, but that doesn't make it any easier to swallow (especially since all three appear in so many other sets now through the LotR/Hobbit waves). The two Mordor Orc re-hashes who don't even look anything like the orcs at the docks is the real shame imo.

As for the Mouth of Sauron, he was the only named bad guy within a hundred miles of the Gate. I also think he looks pretty awesome.

Maybe Lego shouldn't have done a Black Gate set then? The eagle was used in the BoFA set so it got use in another set besides Orthanc. We already have tons of walls, albiet most are gray and not black, so a set that is nothing but a gate wasn't really that exciting. Lego could of had a Witch King, Gandalf the White, Eowyn, Gondor Soldiers, and Orcs all in one set if they had picked another scene.

[Blakstone]

Direct to Consumer sets do not get new molds. They did not include the eagle in the Black Gate set in order to use it again. They did it so they could have the eagle in the Orthanc.

[Alcarin]

Direct to Consumer sets do not get new molds. They did not include the eagle in the Black Gate set in order to use it again. They did it so they could have the eagle in the Orthanc.

But Hobbit set got eagle in NORMAL set so they could've skipped the Black Gates and still have mold in regular set as its clearly evident now :)

It seems like most everyone hates the ship set, and in context of the other sets that never got made I can understand, but it's not like the concept of the set is that absurd. The arrival of Aragorn with the Army of the Dead, via ship, is an extremely significant moment; he's leading an army of oathbreakers into battle, which not only serves as the turning moment for the Pelennor fields battle; it signifies the literal returning of the king since only he would have the ability to command them.

From a designer's perspective having the corsair ship set is a sensible way to recreate this scenario in a playset. It includes both the King of the Dead and some undead soldiers alongside the heroes. The only other option to have all these in a set would be making an entire 'Paths of the Dead/City of the Dead' set, would would have needed to be much larger and arguably would be another rubble/rock set.I also suspect that somewhere in the contractual agreement PJ required that they would make a figure of him and that had something to do with the decision, but that's just my crazy speculation. ;)

Now, is it annoying that they created this set and didn't make a set for their destination? (Pelennor Fields or at least, Minas Tirith) Absolutely, but that's a different discussion really. Don't hate on the ship, I like my glowing undead guys. :)

We dont hate / ''hate'' the set because its bad, its a great ship the figures (except for the Army of the dead) are lackluster but ok, set overall is a solid 7/10 if not better..... we hate the set mostly because it took the 100$ bracket for such a potentially better set...........

[Blakstone]

But Hobbit set got eagle in NORMAL set so they could've skipped the Black Gates and still have mold in regular set as its clearly evident now :)

The Orthanc came out in July 2013 while the Battle of the Five Armies set came out in October of 2014. I don't think they got the mold for free for a year and change. The Black Gate set came out one month before the Orthanc.

[Deathleech]

The Orthanc came out in July 2013 while the Battle of the Five Armies set came out in October of 2014. I don't think they got the mold for free for a year and change. The Black Gate set came out one month before the Orthanc.

But the eagle mold was used in more than just a D2C set so the cost for it could have been justified later on? I thought that was the reason D2C sets did't have new molds, they don't move enough sets to justify the cost as a normal retail set would? Does it really matter if it was used in the Orthanc set first?

[Blakstone]

I think as long as the design on the set who is paying the change cost, it is not an issue. After all, The Simpson's D2C house was on the market a month before the CMFs. However, it was the CMFs that paid for all the new molds in the D2C set.

I do not believe that the Hobbit wave three sets were finalized whenever the Orthanc was. Instead, LEGO found it beneficial to reuse an existing mold that the Black Gate paid for.

There is not a lot known on these things, but I came across a designer interview on Classic Castle where they discussed the change budget and its impact on the 2007 Castle line.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Blakstone

[Bycougars]

I think as long as the design on the set who is paying the change cost, it is not an issue. After all, The Simpson's D2C house was on the market a month before the CMFs. However, it was the CMFs that paid for all the new molds in the D2C set.

I do not believe that the Hobbit wave three sets were finalized whenever the Orthanc was. Instead, LEGO found it beneficial to reuse an existing mold that the Black Gate paid for.

There is not a lot known on these things, but I came across a designer interview on Classic Castle where they discussed the change budget and its impact on the 2007 Castle line.

I think your right. Lego probably designed the eagle for the black gate and orthanc and decided to reuse the existing mold for this final wave of hobbit sets instead of spending money to make a new mold.

[Alcarin]

I think your right. Lego probably designed the eagle for the black gate and orthanc and decided to reuse the existing mold for this final wave of hobbit sets instead of spending money to make a new mold.

In other words you want to say a company like LEGO does not know what they will do in 1 year? I thought plans and sketches for sets have to be done over a year before production and producing a set from nill to finish is around 2 years according to info around so surel they must've known the ideas for Hobbit before right?

Its starting to be quite funny how some people change plates depending on their needs.... sometimes people here claim LEGO cannot switch fast and has rigid ways of producing sets then suddenly they do it faster and not know what will come out in a year.....

People need to make up their mind :P

[Albus]

The Pirate ship is a good enough set, the problem is it seems an odd choice when other more important scenes haven't been made. As Alcarin has said, some people don't like it because it took the place of something that could have been better.

When the second wave was released, I thought it looked like they were definitely doing a third wave because they'd picked some relatively smaller/less significant scenes for sets (Black Gate, Council and Pirate Ship), and it probably was the plan to do a third wave, but for whatever reason, they decided not to.

If the second wave had covered all the important bases (anything Gondor, Balrog, Mordor, Fangorn), then we'd all be clamouring for a third wave which had minor stuff like corsairs, the Mouth of Sauron, etc. It's just unfortunate that we got the less significant stuff first, thus meaning we miss out on important stuff that was presumably planned for the supposed third wave.

(I won't give up completely, though, until at least halfway through 2015. There's still time).

[LegoThomas]

The Pirate ship is a good enough set, the problem is it seems an odd choice when other more important scenes haven't been made. As Alcarin has said, some people don't like it because it took the place of something that could have been better.

When the second wave was released, I thought it looked like they were definitely doing a third wave because they'd picked some relatively smaller/less significant scenes for sets (Black Gate, Council and Pirate Ship), and it probably was the plan to do a third wave, but for whatever reason, they decided not to.

If the second wave had covered all the important bases (anything Gondor, Balrog, Mordor, Fangorn), then we'd all be clamouring for a third wave which had minor stuff like corsairs, the Mouth of Sauron, etc. It's just unfortunate that we got the less significant stuff first, thus meaning we miss out on important stuff that was presumably planned for the supposed third wave.

(I won't give up completely, though, until at least halfway through 2015. There's still time).

Totally agree.

[cullmancreations]

Do you guys think the Mines of Moria set is something decent to invest in? A local toy store by me still has it in stock and I want to know if its worth picking up

[Dr.Cogg]

its a pretty good set with lots of play features,good minifigures and a Cave Troll.

[Cammo]

Sure; it has quite a few exclusive minifigures and it's a very popular moment in the trilogy. For me it remains my 2nd favourite LotR set (#1 is Bag-End). I think that Shelob and Moria will be the most treasured sets when time passes. Key characters and scenes in the trilogy.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Cammo