The Legend of Zelda Project finally reaches 10,000 supporters

[GregoryBrick]

What really bothers me is that Lego doesn't consider what they have first to use and instead just see "oh this needs new pieces". They don't think outside the box and realize they have a lot of the new molds made already. Plus they don't have to make the set exactly what the project entails. The Minecraft set looks nothing at all like the project that was uploaded.

Do you really think the review team doesn't consider what molds they already have and how flexible they could be around proposed elements? As you say, the Minecraft set differs quite a bit from the model in the proposal, which shows that the review team and LEGO have no problem thinking broadly about how to interpret proposals and make them work as they see best.

The following, from CUUSOO, has already been posted: "While we love considering new elements, if a model depends on a new element, there are more potential factors on which it can fail review." If we read this closely, we see it it is more complicated than simply saying yes or no to a project because it has new elements. As Aanchir and Faefrost explained, new elements increase the number of intersecting considerations ("potential factors") which the review team has to address.

[Omicron]

Do you really think the review team doesn't consider what molds they already have and how flexible they could be around proposed elements?

They obviously didn't with the last review.

-Omi

[Faefrost]

If they are truly unwilling to make even one new mold then they should turn down any project requiring a new mold immediately. Portal and Space Troopers shouldn't even be reviewed since they both require new molds. The fact is that if they really have no intention of any new molds than they should disqualify all suggested sets that contain them.

To me the fact that they aren't outright saying new molds are impossible suggests that they are at least willing to look into it. Until the day the rules are rewritten to say no new molds I am willing to believe there is at least a chance.

I think once we see the Time Machine released we'll have a much better idea of what Lego is willing to do to make these sets a reality.

Go back and re read the section on new molds in that Lego post. The key phrase is projects that "depend" on new molds. Is a new part required as a core and necessary element of the set? Space Troopers is the perfect example. While the proposal has some new molds, they are not on the core elements of the project. The Space Troopers themselves. Those were very carefully crafted to use existing parts. The proposed Alien enemy uses new pieces, but they are essentially a generic foe. They may be modified or redesigned with little impact for the overall project. Further the parts requested are of a more generic or structural nature. So if TLG did decide to make the molds they could be used in a variety of ways.

With the Zelda project the big problem is Link. There is no current part option that I am aware of that would create an acceptable Link's hair and hat. And Link and Links distinctive appearence is the core of the set. Without a recognizable Link you do not have a Legend of Zelda set. Now if TLG was to seek a more widespread Zelda themed license and release a full wave of Zelda subjects via mass market retail, then the cost of doing a Link head would be fairly easy to do. But for a single 10 to 20k run of CuuSoo sets? (Yeah it might be more popular than that, but they certainly aren't going to gamble new tooling costs on that). They can get away with new head and hair tooling for CMF's and licensed or retail sets because the production runs are hundreds of thousands of units. At a production run of 200,000 the costs of a new mold may be $2 per set. At a CuuSoo run of 20k the cost is $20 per set.

I know all the Zelda fans want a set. But how much are you willing to pay for it? How much would you spend for a set with 3 figs and a bit of wall?

None of this is putting down the idea of a Zelda set. But at the end of the day Lego is a business. The core of what those 10k votes on CuuSoo get you is a "business case review". And the absolute root of such review is "can we viably bring this product to market at a cost that enough people would be willing to pay"? There is nothing hidden in any of this. Actually TLG has been remarkably upfront about many of the details of production over the years, if you know where to look. Many very good projects will fail this review for these sorts of reasons. And for all the gnashing of Internet teeth and wailing that will go on when this gets shot down again, you can't fault TLG. As a general rule they have a superb analysis group that rarely if ever sees a failure or loss on a product brought to market these days.

[Perijove]

We'll just make a third and fourth and fifth, etc until Lego gets the picture. ;p

Hear hear!

[Omicron]

With the Zelda project the big problem is Link. There is no current part option that I am aware of that would create an acceptable Link's hair and hat.

There is actually. This and this. Lego is no stranger to using solvent when bonding parts together, as they have done it before.

And this is the result.

-Omi

Edited February 9, 2013 by Omicron

[Faefrost]

Good point. Even if there isn't a perfect hat/hair combo for Link they could still make an acceptable likeness using any number of the green hats or blonde hair pieces already in production. There are plenty of themes right now that use pieces that while not accurate at least give you a good idea of who it's supposed to be (There's many figures in the superheroes and Star Wars theme using hair pieces that are nowhere close to how they looked in the source material, but they still manage to be identifiable). Ultimately most of the pieces needed for this set idea have a similar part already in production.

They can cheat it for some, but it gets problematic. Three of Links key recognition features trigger off of what would be the headpiece. The elf ears, the blonde slightly tussled hair and the green soft hat. These are the design elements that track across all of the versions of the character in all of the games. The Link minifig itself is the key recognition element of a Zelda set and those three things are the key recognition element of the fig. Now someone may be able to come up with something using existing elements, but I have yet to see it.

And yes Lego has each of the individual needed parts available. They have elf ear pieces. The have blonde tossed hair pieces. They have a good enough soft cap piece. But Due to design decisions made a long time ago they can't simply combine one from column A one from column B. Yes they are moving that way slowly with some Friends and City experimenting, but its nowhere near there yet. So anything they do requires new tooling.

[Omicron]

So anything they do requires new tooling.

It's just industrial strength solvent. Super glue really. :P

They have it in stock and use it plentiful, and not just with the headgear elements I showed. They use it on the magnet sets too. :P

-Omi

[Faefrost]

There is actually. This and this. Lego is no stranger to using solvent when bonding parts together, as they have done it before.

And this is the result.

-Omi

The result lacks the ears? As far as the pieces you mention, I can't speak to the Angelica one, but I have the Jack Sparrow one in front of me and it looks like a single cast piece. There are no detectable voids or gaps anywhere around what would be the joining seam. it seems a single piece of rubbery plastic. Are you sure they did not simply build a new master for the tricorn hat by building it on top of the bandana hair piece? So two molds exist, one with hat and one without? That's something that they can and do do. But it doesn't remove the tooling costs.

[Omicron]

The result lacks the ears?

That fig was based on the classic Link, who really didn't show the Hylian ears. But if you want the ears, there is the elf hair piece too.

There are no detectable voids or gaps anywhere around what would be the joining seam.

The bonding is seamless. You have to boil the part to release them.

But it doesn't remove the tooling costs.

True, but it does remove the new mold costs, which are more expensive. Even printing is pricey too but Lego didn't hold out on that for the Minecraft set and the Hayabusa set.

-Omi

[Faefrost]

Nah. The cost of printing drops drastically each year and with each technological evolution. The costs of tooling and molding not so much. Until the day of 3d production printing I don't think we will see any substantial change. Now when they do master that, then many more things become viable for CuuSoo.

[Omicron]

Nah. The cost of printing drops drastically each year and with each technological evolution. The costs of tooling and molding not so much. Until the day of 3d production printing I don't think we will see any substantial change. Now when they do master that, then many more things become viable for CuuSoo.

Well that's why they make their special molds and glued magnets in China and Mexico. Cuz it's wicked cheap.

Either way Lego isn't looking at their resources right, with exisiting parts and their international facilities.

-Omi

Edited February 9, 2013 by Omicron

[Faefrost]

Well that's why they make their special molds and glued magnets in China and Mexico. Cuz it's wicked cheap.

Either way Lego isn't looking at their resources right, with exisiting parts and their international facilities.

-Omi

It's "wicked cheap" assuming a certain volume. I'm simply telling you, due to the walled garden nature of CuuSoo, and the small niche production runs, they will not be making any new molds or any special production techniques for these sets that would be limited to just the CuuSoo set. Ever! It's all about the numbers. In this case the math most likely will not work, no matter how much we may wish it otherwise. Zelda has a greater chance of seeing actual production as a regular retail theme, akin to Spongebob, than it does as a niche CuuSoo project. Business can be weird that way.

And no they aren't going to go all in with all of their resources for a CuuSoo project. They are going to be asking "can it be made with what we have in the warehouse or maybe a day or twos run time for a new color, plus printing?" These are niche limited run products. They aren't going to break out the nice lady who sculpts the dwarf beards or a crack team of Chinese ladies with super glue for an anticipated initial run of 20,000 pieces.

Edited February 9, 2013 by Faefrost

[Omicron]

Who cares what Cuusoo people says or thinks. They aren't Lego. Final decision is made by Lego if it gets that far.

-Omi

[strangely]

So couldn't they justify a mold of a new hat by including it in either LOTR sets or the new castle sets. I mean we have two themes where Lego could use this style of hat too and it would fit well. It's not like Link's look is that unique, the hat and hair could be featured in any number of sets that are based on a medieval/fantasy setting. Heck to offset the cost they could even use it in one of the collectible minifig waves (Which includes new pieces all the time). There's a lot of ways they could afford to make this one piece so I'm still willing to believe that it's entirely possible that this set will be made.

[Faefrost]

So couldn't they justify a mold of a new hat by including it in either LOTR sets or the new castle sets. I mean we have two themes where Lego could use this style of hat too and it would fit well. It's not like Link's look is that unique, the hat and hair could be featured in any number of sets that are based on a medieval/fantasy setting. Heck to offset the cost they could even use it in one of the collectible minifig waves (Which includes new pieces all the time). There's a lot of ways they could afford to make this one piece so I'm still willing to believe that it's entirely possible that this set will be made.

Unlikely. the problem is it is for a distinct and unique element of a licensed character. They can often re use more generic hair pieces, but the character defining stuff is often tied closely to the license and the character. This is why there are some Star Wars elements that will never be used outside of a Star Wars set. (The obvious ones being Darth Vader or Stormtrooper helmets or unique character molds such as Yoda). It can get very subtle sometimes. Princess Leia is a good case to look at. Her classic double buns look is very much a unique character defining one, and that hair piece has only and will only be used in SW sets. Her later long braided hair is a more generic hairstyle and has seen re use. A good test is can a non Lego nerd look at a hair or head piece and know immediately who the character being portrayed is? If yes, then it is probably one that is limited under the license. If no, it may see some recycling.

This may also be part of the reason that we seem less prone to see as many female licensed minifigs (aside from the simple fact that the target play audience of 6-16 yo males tends to not prefer them). Many of the main licensed female characters are much more prone to be at least partially defined by visual elements of their hairstyle. And they tend to be harder to cut corners with. (Note how awful Black Widows hair piece looks)

[strangely]

Link's look isn't that unique, in fact his entire appearance is based on Disney's Peter Pan... He even has a fairy companion.

And that hat isn't even distinct. It was a style of hat that has existed for a long time before TLOZ even existed. I find it unlikely that Nintendo is going to be so uncooperative as to tell Lego that a hat of that type can't be used anywhere else. Even the green goblin wears that same type of hat with the same pointy ears. That type of hat is not unique to Link.

Plus what about Lego re-using the Dagger of Time in the LOTR sets?

[Aanchir]

What really bothers me is that Lego doesn't consider what they have first to use and instead just see "oh this needs new pieces". They don't think outside the box and realize they have a lot of the new molds made already. Plus they don't have to make the set exactly what the project entails. The Minecraft set looks nothing at all like the project that was uploaded.

-Omi

With a lot of proposals, you're right. But with licensed proposals they have to get the approval of the rightsholder for the license, which often means they have to be very faithful to how that company wants the character portrayed. A lot of TV shows, when they're produced, have to have complete style guides produced to show exactly how the characters should be portrayed in toys and merchandise, because if a character looks off-model the product can end up looking sleazy and reflecting badly on the company.

There is actually. This and this. Lego is no stranger to using solvent when bonding parts together, as they have done it before.

And this is the result.

-Omi

First of all, the Jack Sparrow and Angelica hat/hair pieces are single-mold painted parts, like the heads of the skeleton generals Nuckal and Kruncha in LEGO Ninjago. Second, gluing a bunch of pieces together like this so they fit perfectly isn't something TLG has either machines or labor to support for a set like this, would drive up costs to an absurd degree, and would make quality control a nightmare. How perfectly do the parts have to be aligned to meet TLG's standard of quality? Even the pre-assembled parts TLG already puts in several sets (like horses, minifigure torsos, and "Ultrabuild" head pieces) are expensive to produce compared to the average piece that can be just popped out of a mold, and those are parts designed to fit together securely and seamlessly. Making a new mold, as costly as it is, would at least be a reliable method of producing standardized pieces in the necessary volume. This, on the other hand, would be a tremendously risky endeavor.

Overall, LEGO Cuusoo is already designed to handle projects that might be risky to take on, but expecting TLG to go to come up with completely new production structures like this for a single Cuusoo project with a small planned production run is outrageous. It baffles me how some people think fan demand is enough to make a company make unprecedented sacrifices when there are better, more reliable ways they can keep the fans happy. If LEGO Cuusoo does in fact fail to satisfy the public, it's not because TLG isn't trying hard enough to make it work, but rather because some fans' expectations of the sacrifices TLG should make for the platform are excessive and downright irrational.

[strangely]

It baffles me how some people think fan demand is enough to make a company make unprecedented sacrifices when there are better, more reliable ways they can keep the fans happy. If LEGO Cuusoo does in fact fail to satisfy the public, it's not because TLG isn't trying hard enough to make it work, but rather because some fans' expectations of the sacrifices TLG should make for the platform are excessive and downright irrational.

That's fair to say, anyone who's a fan of something often expects more. On the flip side CUUSOO doesn't exactly dissuade wild fan dreams. The thing is that when 10,000 people get to together and say "We want this" it's sort of easy to get swept away in that and expect the best.

The other thing is that it's hard to judge what they'll realistically do and make because we've only gotten a few sets so far. I think after more sets are released we'll gain a much more realistic expectations of what to expect for these sets and people will have much more realistic proposals. I think the Time Machine's release will greatly help us understand what we can expect from licensed properties.

[Faefrost]

Link's look isn't that unique, in fact his entire appearance is based on Disney's Peter Pan... He even has a fairy companion.

And that hat isn't even distinct. It was a style of hat that has existed for a long time before TLOZ even existed. I find it unlikely that Nintendo is going to be so uncooperative as to tell Lego that a hat of that type can't be used anywhere else. Even the green goblin wears that same type of hat with the same pointy ears. That type of hat is not unique to Link.

Plus what about Lego re-using the Dagger of Time in the LOTR sets?

The dagger mold probably falls into that strange grey area of derivatives of a license. (See some of the discussions regarding Chima vs Thundercats to see what I am talking about.) it's a lego'ized interpretation of the licensed prop. But the tooling and its use probably reverted to Lego once the PoP license ended. Or at the very least its something so minor that it is not worth Disneys time or effort to make a fuss over. it's a Persian style dagger. it doesn't become or represent anything else until it is in the more unique characters hands. The same will probably happen with similar non character items from Star Wars, such as the guns, once that license eventually ends. Or the LotR Sting sword. The things that the license holders seem most finicky about are typically the character related things. Head/hat/hair, face printing and chest printing, and specific printed or stickered graphics are the big ones. These define the characters and make them recognize able as unique.

It gets even weirder or harder for general lay people to follow. There are things that are key licensed elements of the license. The things that clearly define the specific licensed characters. And there are things that are derivative of the license. More generic parts created to make the character possible in Lego. Once again Star Wars shows some great examples. Look at the standard Battle Droids. The defining licensed piece of them is the Head. It's what tells you this is a Lusafilm's TPM type BattleDroid. That piece can only be used with Lucas's approval. But the Torso and Arms are more generic structural elements. Even though they were initially created to hold up the head, they are simply derivative items, with nothing unique or distinguishing about them that points back to the Lucas property. As a result Lego owns those parts and may use them as they wish.

In this case I still strongly suspect that the choke point will be Link and specifically Links head. As Anachir points out, they have to match Nintedo's design guides for the character. I would love to be proven wrong, but I just don't think they will hit that without a new mold, and they won't make such a mold for a single CuuSoo project. Don't forget they made sketch models for Mingles proposal, and would have tried everything they could to get the set into the designated budget. It failed the business case because they could not do so. The key failure points then remain the same as now.

[BrickG]

I can't think of anyone else Link's hat could be used for besides Peter Pan (who Link was obviously inspired by). The look wouldn't fit LotRs, Peter Pan isn't going to go to Lego and I can't really think of another use for it besides some generic Christmas Elf which is already covered by a mold.

Really, if they made a hat/hair/ears mold for Link that's basically all they could use it for. Anything else is a stretch or they already have something that does it.

I really really want a Zelda set. I'd buy two of 'em! And I think they'd sell very well. I'm pretty sure the Minecraft set has sold way beyond the other Cuusoo projects and is basically not limited at this point and I think Zelda could pull that off too. But as they've said, they're unwilling currently to buy a new mold, and they'd potentially need SEVERAL... it's just not happening. I might be wrong but I highly doubt it and hope I am.

Edited February 9, 2013 by BrickG

[Faefrost]

I can't think of anyone else Link's hat could be used for besides Peter Pan (who Link was obviously inspired by). The look wouldn't fit LotRs, Peter Pan isn't going to go to Lego and I can't really think of another use for it besides some generic Christmas Elf which is already covered by a mold.

Really, if they made a hat/hair/ears mold for Link that's basically all they could use it for. Anything else is a stretch or they already have something that does it.

Actually Strangely is right that the piece could possibly be shared with a classic comic book style Green Goblin, from Spider-Man depending on how they did the face, and assuming they printed Links hair. The radical color shift alone might be enough to differentiate them.

BUT!!!

It only becomes a viable option if they had already made such a set and part, for a GG set, and were simply converting that (assuming that the radical recolor would be enough to satisfy both license holders.) they are not going to seek to amortize the initial cost of a new part through a CuuSoo set. They would be insane to attempt to do so. Once again making such a part for a Spider-Man set adds $2-3 to the set price. Making it for a CuuSoo set adds $20.

This of course assumes that there remains any such similarity between the shape of Links head in the Nintendo design guidelines, and that of the current Marvel design guidelines for the Green Goblin.

[BrickG]

I'd be a bit disappointed if Link's hair was only printed. His hair classically sticks out quite a lot as his hat rests more towards the backish of his head leaving the bangs flowing up and out.

EDIT: Gosh darn it... this picture is making me desperate for Zelda Lego sets...

I feel like I'm in a Golden Age honestly. I've gotten more Super Heroes characters than ever, even TMNT sets! Back to the Future... yeees... Zelda... would make everything perfect.

Too many unique molds!

Edited February 9, 2013 by BrickG

[strangely]

The dagger mold probably falls into that strange grey area of derivatives of a license. (See some of the discussions regarding Chima vs Thundercats to see what I am talking about.) it's a lego'ized interpretation of the licensed prop. But the tooling and its use probably reverted to Lego once the PoP license ended. Or at the very least its something so minor that it is not worth Disneys time or effort to make a fuss over. it's a Persian style dagger. it doesn't become or represent anything else until it is in the more unique characters hands. The same will probably happen with similar non character items from Star Wars, such as the guns, once that license eventually ends. Or the LotR Sting sword. The things that the license holders seem most finicky about are typically the character related things. Head/hat/hair, face printing and chest printing, and specific printed or stickered graphics are the big ones. These define the characters and make them recognize able as unique.

That's sort of a double standard isn't it? When the dagger of time isn't in Dastan's hand it's not the dagger of time, so by that logic Link's hat isn't his hat unless he's wearing it. If indeed the dagger can be used because of something contractual that's fine, I can accept that.

But I think the argument can be made that the dagger of time sets itself apart from other Persian daggers more than Link's hat sets itself apart from other hats of that style. The dagger of time has the specific unique markings and a unique shape. Link's hat on the other hand is a long green hat. It has no distinguishing marks and it's shape is slightly different in each game appearing at different lengths and sizes (And in one installment it wasn't a hat at all but a beaked entity that never shuts up). Arguably Link's hat by itself though has nothing special that sets it apart from the hundreds you'd find at a Renaissance festival. Add in pointy ears and blond hair and it's a different situation, but by itself it has nothing to distinguish it's Link exclusive.

In this case I still strongly suspect that the choke point will be Link and specifically Links head. As Anachir points out, they have to match Nintedo's design guides for the character. I would love to be proven wrong, but I just don't think they will hit that without a new mold, and they won't make such a mold for a single CuuSoo project. Don't forget they made sketch models for Mingles proposal, and would have tried everything they could to get the set into the designated budget. It failed the business case because they could not do so. The key failure points then remain the same as now.

But these two projects aren't the same, sure they both focus on Zelda but what they propose in set designs are very different. The fact is that they told us that just because that project didn't pass didn't mean another similar project wouldn't. So until Lego gives us a direct pronouncement that they will make no new molds I will let myself believe that there is a possibility that they might make one and that this set may pass the review.

I can't think of anyone else Link's hat could be used for besides Peter Pan (who Link was obviously inspired by). The look wouldn't fit LotRs, Peter Pan isn't going to go to Lego and I can't really think of another use for it besides some generic Christmas Elf which is already covered by a mold.

It was actually confirmed in an interview recently that Link was directly inspired by Disney's version of Peter Pan.

And a hat in that style could work for a castle theme too, even with ears and hair it could still fit (After all how many fantasy based sets have we had that's involved fantasy creatures). And plus you never know what type of fantasy characters will crop up in the collectible Minifigs line (We had a plethora of fantasy type figs featured there already).

Such a use for this mold would depend on what Nintendo says, but again I don't see them being overly strict about a hat. And in the case that they don't care if it's used than there's other places it can fit.

[Omicron]

First of all, the Jack Sparrow and Angelica hat/hair pieces are single-mold painted parts,

I've seen them pulled apart. With Lego, everything can be detached one way or another. Even the hats on Woody, Jessie, and Pete can come off.

Second, gluing a bunch of pieces together like this so they fit perfectly isn't something TLG has either machines or labor to support for a set like this,

Don't start with that, you know they do. Need I remind you of the Infected Haus that were painted individually by hand? :P

To say they don't have the technology in this day in age is insulting to the company itself.

-Omi

[strangely]

EDIT: Gosh darn it... this picture is making me desperate for Zelda Lego sets...

I feel like I'm in a Golden Age honestly. I've gotten more Super Heroes characters than ever, even TMNT sets! Back to the Future... yeees... Zelda... would make everything perfect.

Too many unique molds!

I share the feeling. Maybe if enough Zelda projects hit the 10K mark Lego will finally get the hint to make a theme. Who know's, perhaps Nintendo will want to branch out it's merchandising at some point in the future (Which currently really sucks).