MOC: Track, Ramp and Shelf Maintenance Train - extended version

[alainneke]

I will visit Normandy and Bretagne by car within short and pass through Belgium. Why not step by at your place?

Sure, it would be nice to meet a fellow Eurobricks member in real life :) I'm sure we have some interesting thoughts and ideas to share!

[Haddock51]

The fundamental challenge in this case - the way I see it - is to meet the multiple needs of propulsion, i.e. "raw" power (to pull heavy trains up the inclinations) and high speed once the trains have reached the high speed track. For me, high speed still has top priority (except the Track, Ramp and Shelf Maintenance Train).

Having studied the technical specifications of the Lego motors available, it seems to me that I have to make a choice either/or alt. to select a solution that is somewhere in between, with all the trade-offs that this would imply. Question: which solution would be most optimal to meet both the power and the speed requirements - 9V or PF XL, or something else?

Of course it would be fantastic to have an engine with several gears (i.e. multiple torques) - like on a bicycle - but this seems to be still part of futuristic dreams. Or has anyone tried to develop such an engine feasable for Lego trains?

One thought that came to my mind is to equip a train - for example the extended Horizon Express - with both a PF XL (picking up power from the 9V rail) and a couple of 9V engines. Maybe there is a technical solution to switch from PF XL to 9V engines and vice versa (even though both are using the same power source), i.e. using the PF XL to pull the train up the inclinations and then switch to 9V engines in order to maximize speed? Maybe there is a way to turn the PF XL on/off by using a relay which is operated through a wireless device, some kind of remote control unit? Or maybe PF XL and 9V engines should be operated simultaneously - thereby avoiding potential braking impact by the turned-off engine(s) - where you could divert/share power to one/both of them, like a 4 wheel drive? Has anyone tested this kind of "combi-approach"?

Edited April 12, 2013 by Haddock51

[Spitfire2865]

I wouldnt mix different kinds of motors in the same train. All Lego motors have different speeds and torques and it really would end up probably damaging one of the motors.

[Haddock51]

I wouldnt mix different kinds of motors in the same train. All Lego motors have different speeds and torques and it really would end up probably damaging one of the motors.

So if you had to chose - to get some kind of "optimal" compromise between speed and torque - what would be your choice in this case?

Edited April 12, 2013 by Haddock51

[Spitfire2865]

Well, what kind of train are you trying to run exactly?

For great torque, XL motor definately.

For speed, the PF motor bogie, which doesnt have great low speed operation.

Personally, I prefer using the motor bogies just because gear mechs are annoying while building steam locos. I usually find bugs with my designs half way through.

But if youre good with Technic you should be fine with PF motors.

Unless you want to do a PF XL motor bogie design. Those are relatively easy to make but a bit hard to incorporate later on in a build. So for that path, you should build around the motors rather than trying to fit it in later.

Hope this helps. I realize its a bit complicated.

[Haddock51]

Well, what kind of train are you trying to run exactly?For great torque, XL motor definately.For speed, the PF motor bogie, which doesnt have great low speed operation.Personally, I prefer using the motor bogies just because gear mechs are annoying while building steam locos. I usually find bugs with my designs half way through.But if youre good with Technic you should be fine with PF motors.Unless you want to do a PF XL motor bogie design. Those are relatively easy to make but a bit hard to incorporate later on in a build. So for that path, you should build around the motors rather than trying to fit it in later.Hope this helps. I realize its a bit complicated.

Thank you spitfire2865.

I have basically most trains since the 9V system was launched in the 90ies. That also includes most of the RC and PF trains - several of them extended (which all are adjusted to 9V). In addition, a couple of MOC and MOD trains - all in all some 20 - 25 trains. So far I have only used 9V engines. Most of the trains are equipped with double 9V engines, the Santa FE, the extended Horizon Express and the Track, Ramp and Shelf Maintenance Train with 4 9V engines.

As I said, speed has always been a high priority. Therefore, 9V has been the natural choice for me. I wasn´t impressed at all by RC - and then I took a time-out for almost 5 years, missing the entire PF introduction.

So at this stage, I am basically thinking of engines to be mounted on standard trains/locomotives. However, I am also planning a new "era" with MOC trains/locomotives which could open up for gear mechs.

You didn´t mention 9V at all. Why?

Within soon, I will meet with alainneke in Belgium and hopefully get a lot of ideas and inspiration, not the least w.r.t. the various themes related to PF. Seeing is believing ....

I guess, at the end of the day it´s all about getting out the best from both worlds.

Edited April 14, 2013 by Haddock51

[zephyr1934]

My plans are to start building the new 9V Extreme layout in my new hobbyroom at the end of the summer/early fall.

Ah, if it is in your house and the PF battery dies, it is just a hassle- it is not that it is on display 1 hr away from you and in a public space.

Given the fact that you are wandering into uncharted territory, it is hard to say what will work best in the long run. If you are most familiar with 9v and you have a lot of parts, then that is as good as anything to start with. However, you may find that the grades put extra stress on the 9v motors or ???

The biggest advantage of PF is that it is still made. So if you do burn out a motor, it is $5-$15. But you have to invest in and build around all of the PF components, you run the risk of a battery dying at the top of the display (unless you are doing a 9v powered modification), etc..

I'd say don't change any of your existing trains over to PF until you have a feel for PF and only then if you find PF is better for your needs.

However, something like the Horizon Express would be a great, "let's see what PF can do for me" train. Maybe buy a battery or battery box, an IR receiver, 1-2 train motors, the IR train controller, 1-2 XL motors and play with them to see if you can build something to your liking.

Most of my trains are 9v, but at least half of the trains I've built in the past few years are PF. I still prefer track power, but PF does have some nice features that make it worth my time to play with.

[Haddock51]

Ah, if it is in your house and the PF battery dies, it is just a hassle- it is not that it is on display 1 hr away from you and in a public space.

Given the fact that you are wandering into uncharted territory, it is hard to say what will work best in the long run. If you are most familiar with 9v and you have a lot of parts, then that is as good as anything to start with. However, you may find that the grades put extra stress on the 9v motors or ???

The biggest advantage of PF is that it is still made. So if you do burn out a motor, it is $5-$15. But you have to invest in and build around all of the PF components, you run the risk of a battery dying at the top of the display (unless you are doing a 9v powered modification), etc..

I'd say don't change any of your existing trains over to PF until you have a feel for PF and only then if you find PF is better for your needs.

However, something like the Horizon Express would be a great, "let's see what PF can do for me" train. Maybe buy a battery or battery box, an IR receiver, 1-2 train motors, the IR train controller, 1-2 XL motors and play with them to see if you can build something to your liking.

Most of my trains are 9v, but at least half of the trains I've built in the past few years are PF. I still prefer track power, but PF does have some nice features that make it worth my time to play with.

In my previous display (see Brickshelf, member DaRePo) - which also will be part of my future Legoland (but more legofied) - I had similar inclinations, but shorter (approx 2.5 meters). It was back in 2008 when I had the latest opportunities to run trains on that display. I used to push/pull the four 9V engine equipped Santa Fe Train all the way up to the top, without any problems - and no overheating. The main challenge - and risk! - was downhill driving since heavy trains keep accelerating. These experiences will result in significant safety and security measures and installations in the new display, in particular around the curves, e.g. plexiglas frames. All 180 degree curves will be on plane levels. I will also replace all old train buffers and switch to train buffers with sealed magnets and double 1x2 flat tiles to avoid decoupling of waggons by accident, particularly when climbing up inclinations. (To run trains with push and pull engines will certainly be an advantage and a significant safety factor).

The Santa Fe train has about the same weight like the Horizon Express, so I am quite confident it will work with four 9V engines. I will set up a test display within short with similar inclinations to get more experience and information, not the least w.r.t. power supply. (The future display will have approx. 160 soldered power connection points with a total cabel length of some 500 - 600 meters...).

I am stll eager to run the HE at high speed, so I am not sure to convert that train to PF to start with. In a couple of weeks, I will also watch and participate in extensive tests with PF and PF XL engines on this test display and it will of course be very interesting to compare torque and speed.

The Track, Ramp and Shelf Maintenance Train however could be an interesting test train for PF and PF XL since high speed is not relevant in this case. It would be very interesting to see how one or two XL motor(s) would manage to push/pull a total train weight of approx. 1.7 kg - and cope with the braking/friction effect of the railclean waggon and the 8 percent inclinations.

If I were to use PF in the future, I would go for track power, i.e. all PF engines would be 9V modified.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Haddock51

[Haddock51]

Unless you want to do a PF XL motor bogie design. Those are relatively easy to make but a bit hard to incorporate later on in a build. So for that path, you should build around the motors rather than trying to fit it in later.

That´s an interesting comment! Around what size do you normally build your PF MOCs - 6 or 8 studs?

Edited April 16, 2013 by Haddock51

[Spitfire2865]

That´s an interesting comment! Around what size do you normally build your PF MOCs - 6 or 8 studs?

My rolling stock is all 8 wide and my steamers max out at 10 wide on the pistons and driving rods. Though they are built to 8 wide. An XL motor can easily fit in a tender if it is 8 wide. for 6 wide you may have to use some snot techniques or panel elements. And I didnt mention anything on 9V because I never really used it. I wasnt into Legp trains much in the 9V era. Mostly because I was a kid and couldnt buy it on my own. But I did have the Santa Fe loco and an oval of 9V track. Although I had a motor, I never had the 9V transformer. Parents never understand toys like kids do.

So I have no experience with 9V. That id why I didnt mention it. My knowledge mostly lies in PF.

Sorry for the typos. Im on my phone and cant catch the mistakes like I would on a computer.

[Alasdair Ryan]

Aw man I love the Vac train.

Two quick questions:

Do the blue brushes rotate when the train is moving?

Does the vacuum suck up any dust or crumbs on the actual metal part of the track?

[Haddock51]

Do the blue brushes rotate when the train is moving?

Yes they do rotate because of friction and heavy load. I also use some sewing-machine oil to lubricate the brush axel.

Does the vacuum suck up any dust or crumbs on the actual metal part of the track?

So far I have successfully tested the vacuum cleaner with cotton pads (because they are very similar to dust and easier to video) - and it sucked up everything between the rails. Crumbs might be too heavy but I don´t expect to vac crumbs on my future high speed track which will be 2.2 m above floor level.

Watch the test video I posted on April 6 in this topic - and enjoy the vacuum cleaner doing the job!

Edited April 17, 2013 by Haddock51

[Haddock51]

Although I had a motor, I never had the 9V transformer. Parents never understand toys like kids do.

So I have no experience with 9V.

It´s never too late to start and try it ..... You can get a used 9V transformer on Brickshelf for 16 USD.

Well Spitfire2865, let me challenge your statement about parents and toys ...

I started with Lego 9V when my doughters were 8 and 10 years old. One of my ambitions as a parent was not just to understand toys but, even more important, to introduce them to the wonderful world of Lego and Lego Trains 9V, and share the joy, excitement and creativity (and realize some of the dreams I had when I was a kid myself...). Looking back, I think I was quite successful - with both - even though it costed me half a fortune ...

The daughters are now grown up ladies - but certainly still show interest in Lego, and certainly interest in my future 9V Extreme display!

So I guess there are parents - and parents. Ultimately it´s up to yourself to decide and act - and I believe it can be done even without spending half a fortune ...

Edited April 16, 2013 by Haddock51

[Spitfire2865]

It´s never too late to start and try it ..... You can get a used 9V transformer on Brickshelf for 16 USD.

Well Spitfire2865, let me challenge your statement about parents and toys ...

I started with Lego 9V when my doughters were 8 and 10 years old. One of my ambitions as a parent was not just to understand toys but, even more important, to introduce them to the wonderful world of Lego and Lego Trains 9V, and share the joy, excitement and creativity (and realize some of the dreams I had when I was a kid myself...). Looking back, I think I was quite successful - with both - even though it costed me half a fortune ...

The daughters are now grown up ladies - but certainly still show interest in Lego, and certainly interest in my future 9V Extreme display!

So I guess there are parents - and parents. Ultimately it´s up to yourself to decide and act - and I believe it can be done even without spending half a fortune ...

Nicely said. Still, I dont think Im going to invest in 9V equipment. Track seems to be a fortune. Though I always had my eye on the Santa Fe.

But with the parent thing, I dont mean in EVERY situation, but many definitely.

But yes, Try PF. It is a good experience even if you dont use it again.

[Haddock51]

But yes, Try PF. It is a good experience even if you dont use it again.

Thank you Spitfire2865 for all the advice and experience you are sharing with me. Within soon I will hopefully know much more about PF and its applications, so we`ll see...