maiq the liar Posted June 9, 2007 Posted June 9, 2007 BL7 SPOILERSMaxilos=Makuta's new body. Shakar HEY, SNAPE KILLS DUMBLEDORE! Sorry, just had to... But anyway, i agree with the templar re-hiring, because i downloaded MNOLG a while ago, and i enjoyed it.
Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn Posted June 9, 2007 Posted June 9, 2007 *shrug* It is my FIRM opinion that Bionicle could be just as successful - if not more so - as it is now were it run by Jinzo and I :P
JINZONINGEN73 Posted June 9, 2007 Author Posted June 9, 2007 (edited) Yah, anyone who says "we're doing good ENOUGH" needs to be landed outside their place of work, straight on their butt. I'd have gotten into Bionicle anyway, what with the fact the newer parts allowed one to make their own action figures, bringing Lego out of their bricky mecha dark ages... but the non-toy content of the MNOLG was quite awesome, though the budget was less and the art not as polished as newer incarnations. It was when Lego started REALLY spending money on the non-toy content that things started to get boring for this 27-33 year old. I'll take a short black and white manga from Japan written and created by one artist over a 900 page, full color, American superhero graphic novel resulting from a giant creative team and months of planning any day. Same with a simplistic yet well done online flash movie, as opposed to a big-budget pile of CGI poo movie with annoying characters and voices. Quality =/= spending loads of money and time. It comes down to talent. Edited June 9, 2007 by JINZONINGEN 73
vahkimetru Posted June 9, 2007 Posted June 9, 2007 Hey all, I'm not really loving the storyline, or the sets this year. There are some parts I like, and some I don't, but remember this Lord Admiral, much as your ideas may be appealing to an older, teenage/adult audience, kids today wouldn't find it so fun. In addition, as muchas Jinzos MOCs are also great, and a pleasure to look at, how do you geta 7 year old to build this, let alone purchase it as a kit: Keep in mind, Bionicle serves as the lifeline for Lego. It's their most succesful line, one of their longest running ones, so they need to feed the growing audience of 7 year olds who want an easy to build action figure-if they even want to have to build it. I find it intresting that among the shelves upon shelves of Spiderman action figures Ninja Turtles, and what have you, Bionicle survives. And we get some stuff that can be looked at as at least decent by an adult fan. Take Nocturn for example. He's not THE most complex set, but compare him to some of the other spring 2007 sets, and then remember, silly rabbit, Bionicle is for (7 year old kids!
hewkii9 Posted June 9, 2007 Posted June 9, 2007 Visorak-kal, my kindred spirit! I agree with all you just said. I read on BZP that they did a test for comics, and their focus groups liked the comics, especially the fighting. The comics are nothing special to me, and to you all they stink (okay, maybe MORE than stink), but we aren't enough of the profit to count for much. We have louder voices, but we don't have louder pockets. Yet, sadly, Sayger demonstrates once a year that he can draw well [balta in Ignition #1, there was a good image of Dekar last issue]. Add original story to the comics [don't just rephrase BL#6], and draw more consistently. And in July, the longer comics return. In the book, Jaller asks Kongu the question we've all been wondering; why and how did he become the funny-boy when he wasn't in the past? (Perhaps Greg is watching us...) Reasoning being that Toa Lewa taught him that in tight situations, comedy can be helpful, and saving the universe is a tough situation. I must really applaud the way Greg manages to make the 21+ characters actually important to the story; none of them are really superfluous in any way, and they all connect to the main plot, within 122 pages. None of the characters did nothing, so to speak. Another person who is seeing some hope for the future of the story. And developing character???? Surely not!! This gladdens me, let's just hope Hewkii develops. [He has around 7 lines in all the Ignition comics, a couple of them being Argh! and probably an Eungh!!!]. If you've seen Greg's Story News Update on BZP, I like that. We get the type of random bitbits we want, learn new stuff [the Kraahkan's been recovered, and Nuva on Odina], and the pulp's been cut.
Zaktan of the Shadows Posted June 9, 2007 Posted June 9, 2007 Hey! Sayger does a great job drawing for the Ignition comics! But they should be longer. It used to be 16-20 pgs and now its only 12. -ZotS
Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn Posted June 9, 2007 Posted June 9, 2007 While Sayger IS a very talented artist, I personally preffered the style (and story, because there was some) of those 3 2001 comics. Just personal preference, though. As for what Jinzo said about the manga, I agree with you completely.
Visorak-kal Posted June 10, 2007 Posted June 10, 2007 Thank you, Hewkii9! Lord Admiral, I too liked the style of the 01 comics, but although each comic held more story, the story year for 01 was basically untold through anything other than MNOLG. Those without internet at that time, such as myself, were lost until Comic 4 in 2002. So, it wasn't necessarily the best decision for LEGO, as some of the story was lost through the comic outlets. While the comics in their own are not as good as 01, at least in 2006 and 2007 they end up telling you the end of the story. (Which 2003-2005 SORELY lacked.) Hewkii9, I think the comics are re-hashes of Legends 6 because they receive more widespread reading than the books and must tell the story in the whole year. I may sound naive, but I like looking at the pictures, lol. :) And you noticed those trivia tidbits, too? I really liked those, and I'm glad that Greg will be doing more of them in the future. They remind of 2001, in which the story was not solely focused on the Toa. That was missing a lot in 2004-2005, and started to pick up again in 2006 since it focused on Matoran heroes in the first half of the year. I am noticing a lot more character developement in 2006 and 2007 than in 2004-2005, because since that was the past, we could predict how the Toa Metru would change in character because we knew them as Turaga. It's sad that Hewkii gets little characterization in the comic, because in the books he is an interesting character, VERY reminiscent of his matoran self. I'm glad that Greg commented that he liked Matoro best since his character grows the most, which shows he puts an emphasis on characterization. It just can't be done in 12-page comics where fighting is needed to please the target audience. Zaktan of the Shadows, the comics are shorter for the first half of the year because budget money was taken to make that movie that appeared on Bionicle.com. I believe that Mask of Life that appeared was Lord Admiral's favorite part of 2007. :) I thought it was a neat style as well, too bad it won't be made into plastic this year. I also like Sayger's style, though I think sometimes he makes the character's too thin and spiny. His full-page pictures are the greatest. I still think Toby Dutkiewitz is the best artist BIONICLE has had. (He drew 2001 and those special BrickMaster editions in 2005.) VK
Ikki o' Moopyville Posted June 10, 2007 Posted June 10, 2007 Carlos D'anda was the artist of '01-'02, just so ya know. :-P Miss that style... Anyone seen some of the great art in the Bionicle World book, BTW? They could really use that for comics! Plain wonderful -Ikk
Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn Posted June 11, 2007 Posted June 11, 2007 Another point I would like to bring up, and would like to cross-reference it with the anime and manga series Bleach (Whos basic story style is VERY similar to that of BIONICLE) is that we no-longer fear teh villians strength. Basically, when it was the Rahi, you were afraid by the sheer brawn of those Rahi beasts that on their own could damn near kill a Toa and were practically unstoppable when they teamed up. In 2002, the Bohrok were so strong that, in one of the books, just two Nuvok could overwhelm Onua. In 2003, first the Bohrok Kal deprived them of their power, and then the Rahkshi proved unstoppable. Those were enemies you could fear. The flash vids on Bionicle.com gave the Vahki a very inhuman and distinct feel, which I still like. The dark hunters could have been better portrayed, but ah well. The Visorak were kind of a Bohrok repeat, but meh. They were still interesting. And their leadership - Roodaka in particular - was EXCELLENT. Then we get to the Piraka. No real character other then the stereotypical "Im evil! Grr!". A *TON* of powers that usually got easily defeated/bypassed (Laser eyes? Come on...). They defeated the Toa Nuva in an un-spectacular battle, and then got beat in every battle against the untried Toa Inika. Now the Barraki are out, but with fewer powers then the Piraka yet still lacking in the fear-factor. You know that once Kongu comes in with both guns blasting, they'll all die and that'll be the end of it. You already KNOW the good guys are going to kick Evil's megablocks; theres nothing to make you wonder "How are the heroes going to get out of this one?". Now, in the Hollow arc of the Bleach storyline, the average evil-spirit Hollows were enough to provide the main character, substitute Death God Kurosaki Ichigo, very difficult battles. When a Captain and Vice-Captain Death Gods appeared, they damn near killed Ichigo. Through the Soul Society arc, Ichigo trained up and eventually acheived Bankai, the ultimate form of mastery of their Soul Slayer swords. He went on to defeat Kuchiki Byakuya - the Captain that initially nearly killed him - with his Bankai. Then, when the Arrancar - Hollows that have attained Death God powers - attack in the following story arc, Ichigo faces the 6th most powerful Arrancar, Grimmjow Jaggerjack. Arrancar, like Death Gods, can release their swords to become far more powerful, and the 10 Espada (of which Grimmjow is the 6th most powerful) are far more powerful then the rest. So, the first time Ichigo takes a swing at Grimmjow, Grimmjow blocks the sword blade with... his pinkie. And for the rest of the battle, proceeds to take on Bankai Ichigo bare-handed - And he's the 6th most powerful Espada, and the 3 Traitor Captains above the Espada are far more powerful then *them*. THAT makes you think, "What the hell?! All these powerful characters we've been following for, like, two years are nothing compared to these guys! How can they win?!" If you've made it so people can actually care about the characters - which I dont really think Greg has - then this has some serious drama effect, and is why I have been following the current Bleach storyline religiously :)
Visorak-kal Posted June 11, 2007 Posted June 11, 2007 (edited) I felt the same way in 2006, Lord Admiral, but I'm wondering if it is because of this: Look, in 2001-2005, we faced swarm villains, and the story followed the heroes as the protagonists. In 2006, the first book focused on the Piraka, as if they were the protagonists. In 2007, the first book focused on the Barraki, as if they were the protagonists. Granted, those books had Matoran as protagonists, but the fact that the Barraki and Piraka took up the meat of the book may have lessened their mystery, and thus the fear we would have had for them? What do you think? With regard to the Inika winning battles: Actually, the Toa Inika won their first battle because it was six-against-one, and they lost their second battle to Hakann and Thok. They won the third by defeating Hakann and Thok, but not before getting knocked out and letting the Piraka get a headstart. After that, you can't count any of the battles of Inika-versus-Piraka, because other factors played in, such as the giant bridge. (The Inika lost that battle.) The Inika got the mask because they figured out how to defeat Vezon and Fenrakk, while the Piraka lost to him because Vezok was to eager to kill Vezon and knocked out one of their number. I think the Piraka lost a bit of their "fear factor" because of the fact that we could almost count on them betraying each other, if you get my gist. The Toa Inika might have been defeated had Hakann and Thok not betrayed the other Piraka. There were so many betrayals and expected betrayals that the Piraka seemed to defeat their own purpose. It's a new kind of story, just as life-threatening to the heroes, but it just doesn't seem that way to the reader. (I thought Thok and Zaktan had the best characters of those Piraka, because the other four were very similar. Thok had a more silent betrayin nature, and Zaktan didn't really betray anyone.) I also think the Piraka were not as fearful because, although they one the first battle against the Toa Nuva, they didn't even DEFEAT the Toa Nuva. They didn't beat the Nuva; Brutaka did. The Nuva would have been able to eliminate Zaktan, (since the others were betraying him) and then would probably have eliminated all the others. Which only furthered Brutaka as a powerful villain and the Piraka as being his little servants. Now, with the Barraki this year, I've got a different feel. They seem less likely to betray each other, and more creepy and dark, more villanous. The Barraki more ruled by emotion such as Pridak and Ehlek do not seem as creepy as the cold ones such as Kalmah and Takadox. If you read Bionicle Legends 7, in which the Toa Inika first face the Barraki, I think you'll agree that they are better villains that the Piraka. They have a coldness about them. (Ex: When Kalmah says, "Feed my little ones..." to his devouring squid.) The PIraka lacked this coldness, they were more hot-heated. I'm liking the Barraki, but they fall short to Makuta. VK Edited June 11, 2007 by Visorak-kal
Darkness Falls Posted June 19, 2007 Posted June 19, 2007 I felt the same way in 2006, Lord Admiral, but I'm wondering if it is because of this:Look, in 2001-2005, we faced swarm villains, and the story followed the heroes as the protagonists. In 2006, the first book focused on the Piraka, as if they were the protagonists. In 2007, the first book focused on the Barraki, as if they were the protagonists. Granted, those books had Matoran as protagonists, but the fact that the Barraki and Piraka took up the meat of the book may have lessened their mystery, and thus the fear we would have had for them? What do you think? With regard to the Inika winning battles: Actually, the Toa Inika won their first battle because it was six-against-one, and they lost their second battle to Hakann and Thok. They won the third by defeating Hakann and Thok, but not before getting knocked out and letting the Piraka get a headstart. After that, you can't count any of the battles of Inika-versus-Piraka, because other factors played in, such as the giant bridge. (The Inika lost that battle.) The Inika got the mask because they figured out how to defeat Vezon and Fenrakk, while the Piraka lost to him because Vezok was to eager to kill Vezon and knocked out one of their number. I think the Piraka lost a bit of their "fear factor" because of the fact that we could almost count on them betraying each other, if you get my gist. The Toa Inika might have been defeated had Hakann and Thok not betrayed the other Piraka. There were so many betrayals and expected betrayals that the Piraka seemed to defeat their own purpose. It's a new kind of story, just as life-threatening to the heroes, but it just doesn't seem that way to the reader. (I thought Thok and Zaktan had the best characters of those Piraka, because the other four were very similar. Thok had a more silent betrayin nature, and Zaktan didn't really betray anyone.) I also think the Piraka were not as fearful because, although they one the first battle against the Toa Nuva, they didn't even DEFEAT the Toa Nuva. They didn't beat the Nuva; Brutaka did. The Nuva would have been able to eliminate Zaktan, (since the others were betraying him) and then would probably have eliminated all the others. Which only furthered Brutaka as a powerful villain and the Piraka as being his little servants. Now, with the Barraki this year, I've got a different feel. They seem less likely to betray each other, and more creepy and dark, more villanous. The Barraki more ruled by emotion such as Pridak and Ehlek do not seem as creepy as the cold ones such as Kalmah and Takadox. If you read Bionicle Legends 7, in which the Toa Inika first face the Barraki, I think you'll agree that they are better villains that the Piraka. They have a coldness about them. (Ex: When Kalmah says, "Feed my little ones..." to his devouring squid.) The PIraka lacked this coldness, they were more hot-heated. I'm liking the Barraki, but they fall short to Makuta. VK I believe that the Piraka were played off more as heroes in 2006 than the Inika. They were unique characters with uncharismatic ideals... and they seemed to be focused upon much more than the Inika. The Barraki, however, have a sense of mystery to them... like what they've been doing since the Great Cataclysm, and why they just so happen to always be around, ready to pull a Matoran into the depths. Good stuff.
JINZONINGEN73 Posted June 20, 2007 Author Posted June 20, 2007 (edited) Ugh. No offense, but I need to return to a simpler, much more cooler time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPhJmt3qI2M&NR=1 Edited June 20, 2007 by JINZONINGEN 73
Darkness Falls Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 ...Wow. I watched that... and now I realize why I've lost interest in Bionicle. Those animations had such visual beauty... and that's one of the reasons I loved it so much.
Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 All hail TEMPLAR; May they forever outshine Greg.
Shine Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 (edited) All hail TEMPLAR; May they forever outshine Greg. ... ... Greg wrote the script for those. Edited June 20, 2007 by Shine
Starwars4J Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 Now, in the Hollow arc of the Bleach storyline, the average evil-spirit Hollows were enough to provide the main character, substitute Death God Kurosaki Ichigo, very difficult battles. When a Captain and Vice-Captain Death Gods appeared, they damn near killed Ichigo. Through the Soul Society arc, Ichigo trained up and eventually acheived Bankai, the ultimate form of mastery of their Soul Slayer swords. He went on to defeat Kuchiki Byakuya - the Captain that initially nearly killed him - with his Bankai.Then, when the Arrancar - Hollows that have attained Death God powers - attack in the following story arc, Ichigo faces the 6th most powerful Arrancar, Grimmjow Jaggerjack. Arrancar, like Death Gods, can release their swords to become far more powerful, and the 10 Espada (of which Grimmjow is the 6th most powerful) are far more powerful then the rest. So, the first time Ichigo takes a swing at Grimmjow, Grimmjow blocks the sword blade with... his pinkie. And for the rest of the battle, proceeds to take on Bankai Ichigo bare-handed - And he's the 6th most powerful Espada, and the 3 Traitor Captains above the Espada are far more powerful then *them*. THAT makes you think, "What the hell?! All these powerful characters we've been following for, like, two years are nothing compared to these guys! How can they win?!" If you've made it so people can actually care about the characters - which I dont really think Greg has - then this has some serious drama effect, and is why I have been following the current Bleach storyline religiously :) Now I like Bleach as much as the next guy, but it sure isn't for that reason. The thing I hate about bleach, and even what you're talking about how they should treat Bionicle, is that it's just a giant DBZ fest. You're 10x more powerful than I was in the last episode?! Well then I'll just have to power up/transform/use a new secret technique/fuse! Bwahaha, now I'm 10x more powerful than you! ...oh now, you have a FOURTH transformation?! It's just sad, there's very little style in it. Hell, when Ichigo attacked Renji for the second time, he was using a special technique on how to counter a more powerful opponent, and what happened? Renji basically said "I'm stronger, so you can't do anything to me" How boring. It's bad when an anime focuses on pure power over style, because that just isn't realistic. Bleach is just one of the "big three" in the US right now, and somehow it's still going on Japan. I have to admit, the fight with Grimjaw was fairly awesome, but it just...it was a giant beatdown. No special techniques. No new abilities (except Grim can somehow fly now, why hello there DBZ). And don't get me wrong, I loved DBZ as a child, and it still holds a place in my heart, and I still find it entertaining, but nothing in it will really have me on the edge of my seat. Why is that? "Oh no...Goku will never wi-oh, he went Ssj3..." It's just boring and predictable. He doesn't use a special style, in fact in DB it was stated that his stance was so poor that he left himself open on all sides. C'mon people, we need more than senseless face-bashing. We need some finesse. And if that's the direction Bionicle is taking (I can't say for sure, I don't really follow it), then good
Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn Posted June 21, 2007 Posted June 21, 2007 (edited) ... ... Greg wrote the script for those. Theres a single flaw with your logic. No he didnt. @Starwars4J: I see where your coming from, but you're still missing the point. The powers are well thought out, do not incorporate lasers, and the villians ARENT more powerful because the writer simply says "they're more powerful". They actually have thought put into their powers. Furthermore, Greg believes that the only way to develope characters is to have them sit around and talk. Bleach proves this is completely wrong. As Ichigo advanced through different fights in the Soul Society arc, his character developed. Basically, if finesse is what you want, it certainly aint the direction Bionicle is going in - It's goin' in preciesly the OPPOSITE direction. Edited June 21, 2007 by Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn
Starwars4J Posted June 21, 2007 Posted June 21, 2007 Theres a single flaw with your logic.No he didnt. @Starwars4J: I see where your coming from, but you're still missing the point. The powers are well thought out, do not incorporate lasers, and the villians ARENT more powerful because the writer simply says "they're more powerful". They actually have thought put into their powers. Furthermore, Greg believes that the only way to develope characters is to have them sit around and talk. Bleach proves this is completely wrong. As Ichigo advanced through different fights in the Soul Society arc, his character developed. Basically, if finesse is what you want, it certainly aint the direction Bionicle is going in - It's goin' in preciesly the OPPOSITE direction. Wait, wait. Since when does Ichigo develop as a character? He basically mopes around about what a failure he is and never really comes into his own, always too afraid about releasing his hollow side. There tends to be no rhyme or reason for power increases either, and talking? More than half of the Bleach fights are talking, it's like they need to take breaks or something :-| When is Rukia actually going to do something again? I mean it doesn't even make sense...she was a respected death god and yet at the start couldn't even defeat a weak nothing hollow, but ichigo could? And then there's Orihime and Chad getting super powerful from nowhere, except Orihime actually uses it and Chad jobs to everyone he fights |-/ I love the series, don't get me wrong. It's a nice way to sit back and relax, but if I want something serious, I'm more likely to watch something like Hellsing. Bleach is about on par with Naruto, unfortunately, in terms of thought, although Naruto actually puts more thought into style... But if Bionicle is more like Bleach (a shonen), then I'll agree that the direction it's taking is wrong.
Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn Posted June 21, 2007 Posted June 21, 2007 *sigh* Fine. The story certainly isnt going in the direction of Bleach. The characters are bland, the powers... lame (Who thought of a stone-lightning mix?!) and the villians... meh. As I said, you just arent afraid of them. And stuff like the two plot device Zamor's really nails it :P
PSPguy Posted June 21, 2007 Posted June 21, 2007 how do you geta 7 year old to build this, let alone purchase it as a kit: Easily. You tell the kid that its a Transformer that is mutated, call it Meggatron, and sell it as a titan. The other titan can be Optimass Prrime. :-D
Zarkan Posted June 21, 2007 Posted June 21, 2007 Theres a single flaw with your logic.No he didnt. Even if he didn't write the script for the animations, he DID write the script for the original comics. If you don't believe me, I can just take a screen capture of the 2001 comics that are on my computer and show you. Greg has been with Bionicle ever since 2001, and even wrote Bionicle Chronicles 4. It may be hard to believe, but I'm with Jinzo on this one: TLC is the cause for the change of writing style in the comics and books. Greg has to do what they want if they want it. He didn't want Vakama to become a traitor, but they made him it anyway. They call the shots, and Greg can only add stuff to the storyline if they allow him. I know, sad for many (although not for me), but if you want to blame somebody for Bionicle's change of style, I'd go with TLC, not Greg. ;-)
JINZONINGEN73 Posted June 21, 2007 Author Posted June 21, 2007 Even if he didn't write the script for the animations, he DID write the script for the original comics. If you don't believe me, I can just take a screen capture of the 2001 comics that are on my computer and show you. I know. It was when Templar's fine, emotional work vanished and was replaced by comics that I lost interest. They call the shots, and Greg can only add stuff to the storyline if they allow him. I know, sad for many (although not for me), but if you want to blame somebody for Bionicle's change of style, I'd go with TLC, not Greg. Agreed. Though, I do remember him saying at some point that he had an amazing amount of room to "create". Then again, that was a good few years ago. :-|
Darkness Falls Posted June 21, 2007 Posted June 21, 2007 Easily. You tell the kid that its a Transformer that is mutated, call it Meggatron, and sell it as a titan. The other titan can be Optimass Prrime. :-D Yeah, that could totally work! Except, you know... licensing difficulties, etc. Oh, and... that idea sucks.
Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn Posted June 21, 2007 Posted June 21, 2007 I know he wrote the 2001 comics. Im good with that. They were fine, and had the highest level of art we've seen. However, MNOLG I was NOT written by Greg. As he told me himself via PM, he had nothing to do with the web content what-so-ever back then.
Recommended Posts