Toyfair 2007 Bionicle Set Images

[Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn]

Because new parts nowadays are intended for one reason only! Notice how, in Titan sets, you have an extremely similar structured body. Gadunka uses two Piraka torsos for arms and legs... let's see you use a Piraka torso for, let's say, a forearm. A foot?

Parts back in '01-'04 had such imagination to them. Now, the possibilities for a part are slimmed down so much.

Indeed you did :)

[Zaktan of the Shadows]

...

you guys win this time... but I don't get how 01-04 had more imaginative peices. They are basically the same.

-ZotS

[Clonie]

I can admit that you guys are right... but the thing is, you're right about things I don't give a crap about; MOC-ability and absolute perfect proportions (I mean it's not like they're humans!). I just want sets that I like and I have fun with.

And I have to say this: Rahkshi parts suck. What's so imaginative about them? How many ways can you use that Kraata tray, or the spines, or the thigh parts? Even the Bohrok had the Krana tray and head shield. If anything, the new parts are more useful than the aforementioned parts, plus a handfull of other parts from that era.

But anyway, I don't have any problems with previous years' sets, I'm just telling you what's wrong with them MOCing-wise, because that's what makes a set good... *cough*

Luckily I still enjoy them since I don't MOC.

Edited July 1, 2007 by Clonie

[xbloodyfangs]

Not sure if this was posted before... 8-|

The new 2007 catalog with the new bionicle sets!

http://shop.lego.com/ByCatalog/OnlineCat.aspx?c=24

Toa Mahri on! *y*

[Zarkan]

And I have to say this: Rahkshi parts suck

Most of them, yes, but the Rahkshi head, feet and legs are pretty darn useful. I've used them before well. ;-)

Neck. Horse Body. Arms. Arms.

Etc.

I've been proven wrong by you, Darth Vader. My apologies. I guess it's just that I have exactly one toa mata torso, and you usually need at least 2 in the same color to do something. ;-)

[Clonie]

Most of them, yes, but the Rahkshi head, feet and legs are pretty darn useful. I've used them before well. ;-)

Yes, that's what I meant, I forgot to add that. :-)

I've been proven wrong by you, Darth Vader.

Have you? I can't see any MOCs, I only see huge piles of crap.

[JINZONINGEN73]

Have you? I can't see any MOCs, I only see huge piles of crap.

I have to agree somewhat, even where the Toa Mata torsos were used in my own mocs.

http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=402510

Wow, a little trouble "hiding" the torso there? Yeccch.

A few tweaks on the configuration, and the part could've been sweet.

At the same time, I REALLY hate all these newer torsos. Because they're so wide, nearly every moc I look at on BZPower's Bionicle Based Creations section is SUPER-CRAP.

But it's not the torsos that are exclusively the problem.

It's wide-assed feet with toes jutting out really far, ending in no connection points.

It's ridiculously useless play action parts, such as spinners, rubber slugs and other junk.

It's over-sized silver weaponry, with not nearly enough colors of those same parts available in Lego sets for a kid to even START making a moc that's color-coordinated.

It's the sets having like, NO classic Technic parts aside from axles and pegs.

It's the sets having not enough normal System parts, to at least let people SEE first-hand that System + Technic = freaking awesome robot mocs. (Talk about a missed opportunity for cross-marketing! Sorry, those System playsets are NOT enough to get the point across, no thanks to their disgustingly minimalistic design / production budget).

So, the problem goes way past torsos. It's that there's not enough "small" parts for figures to actually be "constructed". They all might as well be... well, what they are... just figures with pop-off limbs.

Anyway, here's what I always wanted...

--Mata torsos made up of at least 4 parts, not one.

--Swiveling waist.

--Not 1-piece arms and legs, but at least 3, (knee, lower leg, upper leg).

--Parts available in MANY colors, not 1 or 3.

--Hands. Some real freaking hands. Though the Bionicle minifig / Exo-Force arms now do the trick.

There is only ONE reason that the Toa Mata couldn't work in a modern Bionicle line.

...The "Master Designer" dudes at Lego SUCK BADLY, as do the executives who keep them on a shoestring budget.

Bionicle sets and parts are god damn LAZY in design.

The way to buffer this is to buy System sets and alter those wretchedly inferior parts into something useful.

Now, for the positive aspect of Bionicle sets. "Hey. Ball joints".

Edited June 30, 2007 by JINZONINGEN 73

[Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn]

Well said, Jinzo.

[Darkness Falls]

Agreed. A combination of the two is the right way to create something awesome. Alone, they are either too lanky, or too blocky.

[Clonie]

At the same time, I REALLY hate all these newer torsos. Because they're so wide, nearly every moc I look at on BZPower's Bionicle Based Creations section is SUPER-CRAP.

It's not Lego's fault if you can't find a way to use a piece. Maybe these 'harder to use parts' are forcing you to find creative ways to use them, instead of just slapping them on and calling them useless?

It's wide-assed feet with toes jutting out really far, ending in no connection points.

There's only one part like that: The two-toed Piraka feet. I don't see why this is more useful than, say, a Toa Mata sword arm, or a Bohrok leg, but that's just me.

And... why do you want toes with connection points?

It's ridiculously useless play action parts, such as spinners, rubber slugs and other junk.

Why are they more useless than other parts? They're not intended for MOCs, they're fun. Why does everything have to be about MOCing? Nobody told you to use every God Damn piece Lego puts out, especially when they're not intended for MOCing.

It's over-sized silver weaponry, with not nearly enough colors of those same parts available in Lego sets for a kid to even START making a moc that's color-coordinated.

Is silver not a good colour?

It's the sets having like, NO classic Technic parts aside from axles and pegs.

If you're refering to cansiter sets, then I don't see how, say, the Metru, have much more technic parts than the Barraki. Maybe a few gears, but it's not really that drastic IMO.

It's the sets having not enough normal System parts, to at least let people SEE first-hand that System + Technic = freaking awesome robot mocs.

Mahri have more system parts than any other canister sets, but apparently they're not good enough.

--Mata torsos made up of at least 4 parts, not one.

--Swiveling waist.

--Not 1-piece arms and legs, but at least 3, (knee, lower leg, upper leg).

--Parts available in MANY colors, not 1 or 3.

--Hands. Some real freaking hands. Though the Bionicle minifig / Exo-Force arms now do the trick.

Pretty much all of those have been answered with the new sets, except the swiveling waist, and the Mata torsos, because they don't remake old sets. We may see them with the new Nuva however...

Hydraxon has some badass hands.

[Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn]

The way I see it, the Mata had one bulky, useless part that, while useless in MoCing, made the Mata a very nice set and really tied it together.

Now, take Carapar. Carapar has no less then FIVE bulky useless parts: Head, big torso plate, Inika back mounting thingy, and both peices of thigh armor. And thats just Carapar!

[dviddy]

Is silver not a good colour?

Hell no. Especially not the way it's used by TLG and the lame "I want to build the same toa TLG made!" idiot MOCers.

It's not Lego's fault if you can't find a way to use a piece

HAHA. Coming from the guy who said Mata torso were useless!

Have you? I can't see any MOCs, I only see huge piles of crap.

Fortunately, as I have yet to see something you've built, I can ignore your wonderful expert opinion. :D

<<DV>>

[Starwars4J]

It's not Lego's fault if you can't find a way to use a piece. Maybe these 'harder to use parts' are forcing you to find creative ways to use them, instead of just slapping them on and calling them useless?

Except that's the main problem people have with these large specific parts: they're limited to very few uses.

Why are they more useless than other parts? They're not intended for MOCs, they're fun. Why does everything have to be about MOCing? Nobody told you to use every God Damn piece Lego puts out, especially when they're not intended for MOCing.

Didn't you just say that the larger parts aren't harder to use, that it's just his fault for not knowing how to MOC with them? And then you try to say that some parts just aren't useful for MOCing and why should they be?

Hm, maybe because the WHOLE POINT of lego is to MOC and do things yourself with your imagination rather than relying on an instruction book? I swear, these younger kids need to be told how to do everything, now people are asking why you need to MOC? Almost all lego pieces were designed with proportions to be made to fit in some (or multiple) alternate way(s) to MOC with. Hell, that's the whole point to it! Finding these connections and new uses.

Pretty much all of those have been answered with the new sets

I guess that means the points made earlier about useless one-use parts and crappy construction have even struck a cord with the designers then...

[Clonie]

Didn't you just say that the larger parts aren't harder to use, that it's just his fault for not knowing how to MOC with them? And then you try to say that some parts just aren't useful for MOCing and why should they be?

Well, the parts he mentioned are specifically designed to be fun... the larger parts, I don't see what's fun about them, so they must have some other use.

Hell, that's the whole point to it! Finding these connections and new uses.

Basically what I said.

Fortunately, as I have yet to see something you've built, I can ignore your wonderful expert opinion. :D

I don't have to build to see that a MOC is crap, do I?

HAHA. Coming from the guy who said Mata torso were useless!

Please link me to the post in which I stated that. Edited July 1, 2007 by Clonie

[Starwars4J]

Well, the parts he mentioned are specifically designed to be fun... the larger parts, I don't see what's fun about them, so they must have some other use.

Or maybe since you apparently aren't a fan of MOCing (which is all about finding use in a useless piece) you don't see that MOCing itself IS fun. If you consider those "shooting missiles" and squids fun...well, that's an entirely different form of fun than actually building, which is what it was originally made for. Some pieces which are just so horribly designed that they can only be used for the original purpose are usually dumped eventually, or used in themes that don't require a lot of building.

[Clonie]

Or maybe since you apparently aren't a fan of MOCing (which is all about finding use in a useless piece) you don't see that MOCing itself IS fun. If you consider those "shooting missiles" and squids fun...well, that's an entirely different form of fun than actually building, which is what it was originally made for. Some pieces which are just so horribly designed that they can only be used for the original purpose are usually dumped eventually, or used in themes that don't require a lot of building.

Maybe I'd rather not pick flaws in everything Lego does and just play with the sets that they give me?

[Starwars4J]

Maybe I'd rather not pick flaws in everything Lego does and just play with the sets that they give me?

I think it's far from picking flaws in everything they do, but rather pointing out the flaws that exist. If we don't, and we just happily play with what they give us, they'll give us crap. If we don't show dissatisfaction we'll get basically Megabloks, which you can play with, but with which you can create nothing.

Edited July 1, 2007 by Starwars4J

[Clonie]

I think it's far from picking flaws in everything they do, but rather pointing out the flaws that exist.

What's the difference?

If we don't, and we just happily play with what they give us, they'll give us crap. If we don't show dissatisfaction we'll get basically Megabloks, which you can play with, but with which you can create nothing.

I doubt anyone from Lego is going to read any of this forum.

[Starwars4J]

What's the difference?

The first is being overly negative where you wouldn't like something no matter what they did. The second is trying to get rid of the flaws so that they don't give you an inferior product because it has a larger profit margin.

I doubt anyone from Lego is going to read any of this forum.

I guess you're not aware of the Ambassadors then? Yes, they're well aware what goes on in the AFOL community, and in fact it has HEAVILY influenced their products over the past few years. The chess sets? The SW battle packs? The cafe corner/market street? The Millenium falcon UCS? The new castle line which returned to their roots?

All from AFOL complaining about what Lego wasn't doing right, and what they should be doing. What they wanted.

[Clonie]

The first is being overly negative where you wouldn't like something no matter what they did. The second is trying to get rid of the flaws so that they don't give you an inferior product because it has a larger profit margin.

Now I didn't say you wouldn't like anything no matter what they did.

I guess you're not aware of the Ambassadors then? Yes, they're well aware what goes on in the AFOL community, and in fact it has HEAVILY influenced their products over the past few years. The chess sets? The SW battle packs? The cafe corner/market street? The Millenium falcon UCS? The new castle line which returned to their roots?

All from AFOL complaining about what Lego wasn't doing right, and what they should be doing. What they wanted.

No, I actually didn't since I just joined. :-/ But that's cool... In which case my complaint would be... um... Mahri rock!

[Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn]

Actually, they're worse then the Inika - from both a MoCer and set-players (me) point of view ;) And, that aint much of a complaint.

[Zarkan]

If we don't show dissatisfaction we'll get basically Megabloks, which you can play with, but with which you can create nothing.

Well, since I happen to have some experience with Megabloks, I wholeheartedly disagree. True, some of the parts in Megabloks are totally useless, but many of the kits, particulary POTC, Spiderman 3, and Dragons, have many useful pieces. I even owned several Dragons kits some time ago, and I made some neat fusion MOC's with both Lego and Megabloks. True, their versiality is limited compared to Lego, but saying that you can create nothing is an overstatement, IMO. ;-)

Oh, and then there's my yet to be uploaded Exo-force MOC using tons of purple Megabloks parts, that happens to be one of my favorite creations EVER. Hm, maybe I should get to work on uploading it... *sweet*

And, on the other issue, Jinzo, I understand where you're coming from completely, but you may be missing a bit of info. I hear it from GregF that TLC's outlook on Bionicle is NOT to make a construction toy, but to just make a play toy (and BTW, he doesn't seem any happier with that outlook than you are!). So, considering that, we are getting a pretty good deal, IMO. We may not be getting the best of sets, but we ARE getting a wealth of good parts.

Okay, I admit it: I LOVE silver weapons, and like the two colored Inika parts, but seriously, I don't see why they are so terrible. I've seen tons of MOC's that take use of those parts to the full extent (well, at least the silver weapons), and they look great. I also don't think that colored weapons are any better. They are as good, just not any better.

Just my thoughts. ;-)

[Starwars4J]

Well, since I happen to have some experience with Megabloks, I wholeheartedly disagree. True, some of the parts in Megabloks are totally useless, but many of the kits, particulary POTC, Spiderman 3, and Dragons, have many useful pieces. I even owned several Dragons kits some time ago, and I made some neat fusion MOC's with both Lego and Megabloks. True, their versiality is limited compared to Lego, but saying that you can create nothing is an overstatement, IMO. ;-)

Ah, but what have you, or can you create just with Megabloks? I've seen a few that might use a piece here or there (mainly accessories though), but rarely anything made entirely out of them! Not to mention the quality, which has also been decreasing in Lego lately (which is why need to make sure it stays at least at the level it is at now).

Pretty much the only time I've seen MB used were for an odd-colored cockpit, or a different connection (double-sided plate), more to accentuate the Lego than to make something in its own right ;-) I'd love to see what you're cooking up though!

[Darkness Falls]

Hell no. Especially not the way it's used by TLG and the lame "I want to build the same toa TLG made!" idiot MOCers.

Fortunately, as I have yet to see something you've built, I can ignore your wonderful expert opinion. :D

<<DV>>

Man, DV, right now you are in possession of the high ground. All of your arguments are logical... unlike...

I don't have to build to see that a MOC is crap, do I?

Actually... knowledge of design structure, fusion, and firsthand experience definitely change your opinion on a MoC. I know they did for me. You start looking at MoCs like this and judging it by how you used a horrible color scheme, and how some parts are structurally unstable and others are solid. All of the MoCs that were shown seemed unique in design, and I studied them carefully... That's how you improve as well, realizing that some pieces cause more stable torsos, etc. and you begin to build stuff like this. By the way, do you know that the torso of that MoC contains 24 pieces, all not intended for a torso? Whereas the new torso pieces are intended to make... a torso.

I guess that was all pretty pointless. What I'm trying to say is that yes, buidling a MoC will change your view on things.

[JINZONINGEN73]

It's not Lego's fault if you can't find a way to use a piece. Maybe these 'harder to use parts' are forcing you to find creative ways to use them, instead of just slapping them on and calling them useless?

Well, yes and no. You're right that it's a beautiful (and educational) thing when someone is clever and manages to turn a more or less annoying part into something cool.

But the problem is there's too many of these parts in any one set.

It's like... hmm... it's like, okay, say you have a soldier. There's tons of tiny, powerful weapons you can equip him with, and they all interlock for efficient (and cool looking) configurations.

OR, you have a soldier with a big freaking cannon, and nothing more.

The soldier with the cannon is going to only have one use pretty much, whereas the soldier with a ton of weapons is more all-purpose, probably even able to reconfigure the smaller weapons into a cannon as well.

(Ok, that was a bit abstract, hope it was relevant lol).

And... why do you want toes with connection points?

Well, if the foot is a giant foot with no connection points... then it's just a giant foot with no connection points.

Yes, a Piraka foot does occasionally get moced interestingly, but with some more connection points it's be awesome.

And I'm suprised Lego doesn't go there, y'know? If you see more possibilities for a part (connection points), wouldn't that mean one would buy more sets to fill up those connection points? That was definitely the case for me, but lately, the inspiration hasn't been there. The new sets are just...well, look at the BBC on BZ. That's what these new sets are.

Why are they more useless than other parts? They're not intended for MOCs, they're fun. Why does everything have to be about MOCing? Nobody told you to use every God Damn piece Lego puts out, especially when they're not intended for MOCing.

Granted, but often those non-mocable gimmick parts bleed over onto the usefulness of decent mocing parts.

Take the Visorak spiders... they had one giant front carapace... but looking at it head-on, Lego made the part NON-SYMMETRICAL (ugh) to accomodate the zipper thing to make the spinner go.

The other thing that bugs me is... they look bad. Often. Over time, if a kid's buying sets and looks over to see a big pile of useless junk, I imagine that would leave them wondering why they'd want to buy more sets. So more junk can mess up their current parts piles?

The nice thing about 2001 was the "gimmick" parts (the masks) were ALSO most useful in mocing, not just sitting in a pile.

Is silver not a good colour?

It's fine. But not in this volume. It's great if your favorite color's silver. :-|

Mahri have more system parts than any other canister sets, but apparently they're not good enough.

It's a step in the right direction, for sure. Still not quite a decent amount to flesh out mocs so that one kid's doesn't look like the next kid's moc, but a positive step.

I don't have to build to see that a MOC is crap, do I?

It helps. But you're right to a point. Even though being a builder yourself means you understand the cleverness and complexity in a configuration, it's still going to be crap if it doesn't ALSO appeal aesthetically to people like you who don't moc.

Maybe I'd rather not pick flaws in everything Lego does and just play with the sets that they give me?

More power to ya'. Lego's done marketing research, and it shows that their age groups just wanna' play with whatever they're tossed.

That's okay.

But only for awhile. These new sets aren't conducive to creating the want to build mocs.

Like it or not, the adult mocing community has been an important force in keeping Lego alive.

If they keep pandering just to kids, giving them not much more of a creative drive than any other action figure sitting on toy shelves, it's going to hurt them down the road.

True, it's easy to toss a few gimmicks and large parts in to get the fast buck, but that only works temporarily.

Hopefully, they've got the brains to know when to shift gears back to Bionicle (or whatever new incarnation takes it's place) that one can actually build unique things with.