Toyfair 2007 Bionicle Set Images

[Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn]

The biggest thing I see in their current marketing spree to 6-year-olds who just want to trash their toys around is this: They are not cultivating a dedicated buyer group. Even now, 7 years later, I'm STILL buying the occasional set and am STILL a fan of BIONICLE - And I was involved in it since the VERY FIRST COMIC.

Go see if anyone who got in to Bionicle in 2006 is still around in 7 years.

[Visorak-kal]

To enter into the discussion here:

Bionicle sets and parts are god damn LAZY in design.

I recall reading in either a BrickJournal magazine or an interview that a LEGO fan who helped design either Cafe Corner or Market Street (I believe the latter) was shocked and surprised at the limited number of pieces that LEGO Designers are allowed to use in order for LEGO to actually make money and not just die out. In fact, he commented that MOCers have more pieces available to them. So, just as Clonie should probably know something about MOC to comment on MOC quality and design, I think it would probably be fair to assume that you should wait until you know everything about the restrictions on LEGO/BIONICLE designers before you accuse their parts of being lazy. Lazy is when work is not put into something; you are assuming that because these pieces do not suit your taste that no work was put into them. That's simply not true.

The new sets are just...well, look at the BBC on BZ. That's what these new sets are.

There are over 30,000 members on BZP, and not all of them are experienced MOCers. I, for one, am not. You really can't judge the pieces by the creations made with them. If you are an experienced MOC and have trouble with them, that I can understand.

But, guys, I think we are getting a little mixed up here with quality and taste. I don't like Lesovikk's new speeder bike, whereas I have liked 99% of BIONICLE sets up to this point. Does that mean that Lesovikk's new speeder bike is low quality or lazy in design, or does it mean I want something different?

I see it as two sides here: those that like the new, simpler design and more one-way pieces beginning in 2006, and those that don't. There's no "quality" involved here. It has not escaped me that 2006 began a less advanced build trend, (I like more advanced), but hey, it brought BIONICLE back to Number 2 in LEGO, and it allows for the survival of more complicated TItan sets.

From a MOC standpoint, you guys complain (for lack of a better term; you're not really "complainers") about the lack of ways in which new pieces can be used. But if I recall, it was realized in 2001 that BIONICLE was not going well with the majority of the Technic fanbase. 2006 showed a major increase in sales from previous years. What LEGO has realized is that its target audience (not us, my friends, that 7-16 on the labels is LEGO's nod to us, they don't make that much off of us builders) does not want what we want; and in order to survive, who must they please?

But to add to your current discussion, I find the 2007 piece far more equipped for more usage than the 2006 ones. Notice that the Inika, Piraka, and Metru leg armor allowed for only one way to connect. The three new Barraki leg/arm armors allow for two ways, either by axle or peg. The Carapar armor has been used in multiple ways; take a look at Mantax, Carapar, and Karzahni. Again, though, this comes from my purely looking at the pieces and not from any long experience with MOCing of any sort.

I am very glad that the Mahri show the return of Toa Metru faces, which allow for their masks to be used in more ways, and I like that the transparent mask piece is separate! The Mahri and Barraki this year, to me, show the beginning of a BIONICLE future that combines the best of 2006 and its predecessors, in which build was more prominent. Plus, I like the design of the Mahri and Barraki, for the most part. I find nothing about them "lazy", with no offense to yourself or yourselves.

The biggest thing I see in their current marketing spree to 6-year-olds who just want to trash their toys around is this: They are not cultivating a dedicated buyer group. Even now, 7 years later, I'm STILL buying the occasional set and am STILL a fan of BIONICLE - And I was involved in it since the VERY FIRST COMIC.

Go see if anyone who got in to Bionicle in 2006 is still around in 7 years.

Perhaps, perhaps not, Lord Admiral, but in 7 years there may be plenty more BIONICLE fans that will more than make up for those lost. It is a changing world. In fact, BIONICLE's current age group may have changed, and they may have to adapt to that. It's life. But what matters to BIONICLE is not 7 years from now, but what is the foreseeable future. Why target an age group that is not making money for you now? You won't be here seven years into the future. And their age group is not six-year-olds, however much you or I may dislike their tastes. Those views from the Barraki ad early this year were from European kids (where the target group is younger than the U.S.) and they were not the focus groups or the actual age groups that LEGO is specifically targeting. They were selected children.

But hearken! I bring what may hopefully be good news for you all! On his blog today, GregF announced that 2008 should see the return of more advanced and complex builds. Let us hope that this will see a future that you all will approve of.

Good evening, all. :-)

VK

[Starwars4J]

I recall reading in either a BrickJournal magazine or an interview that a LEGO fan who helped design either Cafe Corner or Market Street (I believe the latter) was shocked and surprised at the limited number of pieces that LEGO Designers are allowed to use in order for LEGO to actually make money and not just die out.

Actually they're the same guy, and yeah, designers have a very limited repertoire that they can work with, so why Lego feels the need to make huge new expensive molds when you can just build things out of what you have is completely beyond me

But, guys, I think we are getting a little mixed up here with quality and taste. I don't like Lesovikk's new speeder bike, whereas I have liked 99% of BIONICLE sets up to this point. Does that mean that Lesovikk's new speeder bike is low quality or lazy in design, or does it mean I want something different?

Well no, that's personal preference about design. But tell me something, if that bike was a one-piece mold with no moving parts and completely useless in terms of MOCing, would that be merely a matter of "taste", or would that be Lego taking the cheap way out? They're cutting down on the number of pieces, making these huge molds that have fewer uses...I mean do you know what the foundation of Lego was? A BUILDING toy. IT was meant to be something you sat down and experimented with! The models weren't even the toy, they were more suggestions, you built what you wanted, you built what inspired you! You didn't need a comic holding your hand and telling you what to imagine, you used your own head! And now they're moving away from even the construction element! Or rather, they were...as you mentioned:

2006 showed a major increase in sales from previous years. What LEGO has realized is that its target audience (not us, my friends, that 7-16 on the labels is LEGO's nod to us, they don't make that much off of us builders) does not want what we want; and in order to survive, who must they please?

So 2006 sold more? Hey, didn't it also have fewer huge molds than previous years? Weren't the build slightly more complex than the 2005?

But to add to your current discussion, I find the 2007 piece far more equipped for more usage than the 2006 ones. Notice that the Inika, Piraka, and Metru leg armor allowed for only one way to connect. The three new Barraki leg/arm armors allow for two ways, either by axle or peg. The Carapar armor has been used in multiple ways; take a look at Mantax, Carapar, and Karzahni. Again, though, this comes from my purely looking at the pieces and not from any long experience with MOCing of any sort.

Ah, so maybe if they're going back to a more complex build, and if they're using more diverse parts, the whole deal with less complexity wasn't going so well afterall? Maybe they realized they were wrong. They seem to be ret-coning everything they've done in the last 7 years, and trying to go back to their original roots.

but in 7 years there may be plenty more BIONICLE fans that will more than make up for those lost. It is a changing world. In fact, BIONICLE's current age group may have changed, and they may have to adapt to that. It's life. But what matters to BIONICLE is not 7 years from now, but what is the foreseeable future.

And there very likely may be no bionicle in 7 years. Hell, even if they do continue this route of positive change it may end up dead. However the WORST thing a company can do is focus on the now, and the almost. You need to have your nose in the future otherwise you get blindsided by all these things you would not have been otherwise.

And their age group is not six-year-olds, however much you or I may dislike their tastes. Those views from the Barraki ad early this year were from European kids (where the target group is younger than the U.S.) and they were not the focus groups or the actual age groups that LEGO is specifically targeting. They were selected children.

Mind if I ask where you get your information on their target age group?

But hearken! I bring what may hopefully be good news for you all! On his blog today, GregF announced that 2008 should see the return of more advanced and complex builds. Let us hope that this will see a future that you all will approve of.

Ah! So basically the community has spoken out against their ways of limited use parts, simple builds, and won over TLG, who has used Greg as their spokesman! Thank god! Now let's hope they can do the same with the storyline ;-)

[Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn]

Basically, it is my firm opinion that BIONICLE has/had the potential to please just about everyone - However, TLC and Greg Farshtey have pretty well killed that potential, but say its all swell because they're making profit anyway.

[xbloodyfangs]

From what I've read so far in this thread, it sounds like not many people like the new Mahri... *sad*

I personally love 'em! In fact, I'm going to get the whole collection! I haven't bought a Bionicle set since 2003, and back then they sucked... big time. But everything about these new Mahri is incredible! Those awesome Cordak blasters *wub* , the new masks, the design, just about everything is perfect in my opinion. I can even see many great pieces that are very easily reusable, so I don't get what everybody's complaining about. Maybe everybody is angry that the Mahri are so awesome... ;-)

[Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn]

I will be buying Jaller Mahri for use as a Fell Seeker. I may get one or two of the others for parts purposes in enhancing other sets, and some of the new masks are pretty good. But as far as the "awesome" cordak blasters, they're about as useless as the Squids and even less true to the nature of the Bionicle universe. if you pay shipping, I'll send you mine for free - because otherwise, they're goin' out the window.

[Starwars4J]

I'm with you LAH. I'll be buying the red one because I have a red bionicle-laden project I'm doing :-P That's about it.

[JINZONINGEN73]

Bionicle sets and parts are god damn LAZY in design.

I recall reading in either a BrickJournal magazine or an interview that a LEGO fan who helped design either Cafe Corner or Market Street (I believe the latter) was shocked and surprised at the limited number of pieces that LEGO Designers are allowed to use in order for LEGO to actually make money and not just die out. In fact, he commented that MOCers have more pieces available to them. So, just as Clonie should probably know something about MOC to comment on MOC quality and design, I think it would probably be fair to assume that you should wait until you know everything about the restrictions on LEGO/BIONICLE designers before you accuse their parts of being lazy. Lazy is when work is not put into something; you are assuming that because these pieces do not suit your taste that no work was put into them. That's simply not true.

Here's what I actually said:

There is only ONE reason that the Toa Mata couldn't work in a modern Bionicle line.

...The "Master Designer" dudes at Lego SUCK BADLY, as do the executives who keep them on a shoestring budget.

Bionicle sets and parts are god damn LAZY in design.

Still, occasionally their initial, before-budget cut designs show up online, and they're anything but pretty.

There are over 30,000 members on BZP, and not all of them are experienced MOCers. I, for one, am not. You really can't judge the pieces by the creations made with them. If you are an experienced MOC and have trouble with them, that I can understand.

No, no, it's both. The majority of the mocs, by nature of the current pieces for sale in sets, blow megablocks quite badly. The BBC used to have alot of interesting System hybrids, and the available Bionicle parts by THEIR nature let those parts be MANY different things. It's not like that anymore. Also, experienced mocers stumble over them as well. It's the parts. Those giant, giant parts. And the multitude of silver ones.

X /

Ok, ok, we get it. Kopaka was liked by everyone because he had a sword instead of a tool, ok.

We can stop with all the silver sword type junk now, Lego. Geez.

[Clonie]

Actually... knowledge of design structure, fusion, and firsthand experience definitely change your opinion on a MoC. I know they did for me. You start looking at MoCs like this and judging it by how you used a horrible color scheme, and how some parts are structurally unstable and others are solid. All of the MoCs that were shown seemed unique in design, and I studied them carefully... That's how you improve as well, realizing that some pieces cause more stable torsos, etc. and you begin to build stuff like this. By the way, do you know that the torso of that MoC contains 24 pieces, all not intended for a torso? Whereas the new torso pieces are intended to make... a torso.

I guess that was all pretty pointless. What I'm trying to say is that yes, buidling a MoC will change your view on things.

I build Bionicle sets. This is including 01 sets, which were, apparently, more 'complex.' I have enough knowledge of Bionicle parts to know how a MOC is built, thank you.

And about that second MOC... what are those things sticking out of its thighs?

That's good news about '08. Maybe then there will be no more topics like this...

[Darkness Falls]

I build Bionicle sets. This is including 01 sets, which were, apparently, more 'complex.' I have enough knowledge of Bionicle parts to know how a MOC is built, thank you.

And about that second MOC... what are those things sticking out of its thighs?

That's good news about '08. Maybe then there will be no more topics like this...

Yeah, but Bionicle sets aren't as complex as MoCs. A MoC is more original in design. Now, if you're talking Titans and Boxed Sets... then yes, you do know a bit of complexity. Those pieces by the way, are catches that stop him from falling over.

**

So guys... now you see that people like xbloodyfangs are the reason they made the Mahri.

[Visorak-kal]

StarWars4j:

You thought 2006 was an increase in build structure? It seemed to me that LEGO was moving away from complex builds in 2006, because Axonn and Brutaka were nowhere near as built as the 2005 Titans in the previous year.

Also, perhaps newer molds are more easily achieved that re-using old pieces? I too find it odd, but the designers themselves are not to blame for laziness.

Well no, that's personal preference about design. But tell me something, if that bike was a one-piece mold with no moving parts and completely useless in terms of MOCing, would that be merely a matter of "taste", or would that be Lego taking the cheap way out? They're cutting down on the number of pieces, making these huge molds that have fewer uses...I mean do you know what the foundation of Lego was? A BUILDING toy. IT was meant to be something you sat down and experimented with! The models weren't even the toy, they were more suggestions, you built what you wanted, you built what inspired you! You didn't need a comic holding your hand and telling you what to imagine, you used your own head! And now they're moving away from even the construction element! Or rather, they were...as you mentioned:

That's taking it to the extreme; I was referring to now. As far as I'm concerned, BIONICLE sets are still built, and the canister sets don't seem any less built than 2001 canister sets. There doesn't appear to be a change in quality to most people from what I see, and I too am not extremely pleased with less build. So I believe this is a taste issue. The trend in less construction I am noticing is happening with the Titans; compare Axonn to Sidorak and you'll see what I mean. A lot less build. 2005 TItans had over 200 pieces; 2006 and 2007 Titans have considerably less.

Ah, so maybe if they're going back to a more complex build, and if they're using more diverse parts, the whole deal with less complexity wasn't going so well afterall? Maybe they realized they were wrong. They seem to be ret-coning everything they've done in the last 7 years, and trying to go back to their original roots.

That's what I'm hoping. But from 2006 set sales, it doesn't appear that lego necessarily NEEDS to have more complex builds.

And there very likely may be no bionicle in 7 years. Hell, even if they do continue this route of positive change it may end up dead. However the WORST thing a company can do is focus on the now, and the almost. You need to have your nose in the future otherwise you get blindsided by all these things you would not have been otherwise.

Notice I said "foreseeable future". Seven years is a long time, and as you said BIONICLE may not still be around. So far, the 2005/2006 approach is working. Hopefully they can incorporate that success with more complexity, as shown so far in 2007.

Jinzoningen:

Here's what I actually said:

I was referring to the part of your post where you said Bionicle parts and sets were lazy in design. There's no proof of that. And it may not be the executive's fault for that; LEGO is finding it harder and harder to compete in a modern world with electronics and stuff. Sad, but I'd prefer LEGO releases some lines I may not like, so long as they make the money to produce lines I do like.

And I don't think there are any before budget-cut designs. They are limited as to pieces they can use. This may be why they must create new pieces. All I know is that their pieces and designs are limited. So laziness probably has nothing to do with it.

I'm hoping for more build and complexity; that's what 2007 shows is heading our way.

As for my buys this year, I will stick with my red/white tradition and get Matoro and Jaller, along with the three Titans and Karzahni. I think I'll skip Lesovikk, as the Ussanui is cooler than his bike.

VK

[Ikki o' Moopyville]

To get on-topic ( X-O ), did anyone notice the Mahri & Titans are available in both Europe and the US on S@H?!

*sweet*

-Ikk

[hewkii9]

And Canada!

Hydraxon looks nice.

[Clonie]

Yeah, but Bionicle sets aren't as complex as MoCs. A MoC is more original in design. Now, if you're talking Titans and Boxed Sets... then yes, you do know a bit of complexity.

Well yes, I have the 01 Rahi.

[JINZONINGEN73]

I was referring to the part of your post where you said Bionicle parts and sets were lazy in design. There's no proof of that.

Well, we do occasionally see the before-budget designs. They're usually not that good.

And it may not be the executive's fault for that; LEGO is finding it harder and harder to compete in a modern world with electronics and stuff.

I kind of see what you're saying, but no. There's some builders on Brickshelf (usually Japanese lol) who do astounding things using even less parts than in official sets.

If a set looks good enough, you can get away with it not being electronic, not using a giant volume of plastic to make things the mammoth size of recent canister guys, and not need to redesign the packaging every darn year.

From the execs to the (alleged) "Master Builders" ...bleccchhh. They need to look for sculpting / design talent and business practices from the land of the rising sun.

And I don't think there are any before budget-cut designs. They are limited as to pieces they can use. This may be why they must create new pieces. All I know is that their pieces and designs are limited. So laziness probably has nothing to do with it.

No, there are. I've seen (some) prototype sets that were most kickass, turned to a puddle of applesauce by the time it went into production.

[Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn]

Aye, like that pre-production Kikanalo that looked just beu~ti~ful! It looked *EXACTLY* like the movie version, and we all know what we got in the end...

[Shakar]

To get on-topic ( X-O ), did anyone notice the Mahri & Titans are available in both Europe and the US on S@H?!

*sweet*

-Ikk

13 Euro for the Mahri! *sweet* :-) :-/ >:-( :'-( *sing* *sad*

Gadunka and Hydraxon cost 20 Euro, instead of the usual 25. The 10 Euro you save are added to Maxilos & Spinax, making the set price going up 40 to Euro.....

Shakar

Edited July 3, 2007 by Shakar

[dviddy]

I build Bionicle sets. This is including 01 sets, which were, apparently, more 'complex.' I have enough knowledge of Bionicle parts to know how a MOC is built, thank you.

I'm sorry, but building any LEGO set does not give one the technical aptitude to understand the arrangement and engineering behind an advanced and complex MOC. Especially in the Bionicle realm. You may have built the 2001 Rahi, but that in no way means you understand the engineering, structure, or part usage in a MOC say, Jinzo, Cajun, THRAXISjr, etc and so forth built.

I'll give you that MOCs need to be aesthetically pleasing for the masses. I'm one of the biggest proponents of said idea. I don't care if a MOC is full of new and exciting ideas never before seen. If it looks bad, it looks bad. But that in no way means that the average layman can understand the aptitude and skill needed to build those MOCs.

Speaking of which...

I kind of see what you're saying, but no. There's some builders on Brickshelf (usually Japanese lol) who do astounding things using even less parts than in official sets.

These are an example of MOCs I think look awful, but others like.

<<DV>>

[Darkness Falls]

I'm sorry, but building any LEGO set does not give one the technical aptitude to understand the arrangement and engineering behind an advanced and complex MOC. Especially in the Bionicle realm. You may have built the 2001 Rahi, but that in no way means you understand the engineering, structure, or part usage in a MOC say, Jinzo, Cajun, THRAXISjr, etc and so forth built.

I'll give you that MOCs need to be aesthetically pleasing for the masses. I'm one of the biggest proponents of said idea. I don't care if a MOC is full of new and exciting ideas never before seen. If it looks bad, it looks bad. But that in no way means that the average layman can understand the aptitude and skill needed to build those MOCs.

Speaking of which...

These are an example of MOCs I think look awful, but others like.

<<DV>>

Its because they use pieces in an even MORE unorthodox way, that sometimes comes off looking a bit strange.

[Clonie]

I'm sorry, but building any LEGO set does not give one the technical aptitude to understand the arrangement and engineering behind an advanced and complex MOC. Especially in the Bionicle realm. You may have built the 2001 Rahi, but that in no way means you understand the engineering, structure, or part usage in a MOC say, Jinzo, Cajun, THRAXISjr, etc and so forth built.

<<DV>>

Well, could you show me an advanced and complex MOC then?

I can see how a part can be used by looking at it, just 'cause I don't use the parts much doesn't mean I can't figure out how they could be used.

Not to mention the construction of a MOC is mostly visible when you look at it, so I could see how a fair amount of it's built from pictures.

But of course, in the end I'm just a stupid idiot because I can't make OMG ultra-complex OMG advanced OMG ultra OMFG MOCs and I don't agree with you 100%. Do I care? Meh. I don't even know what I'm doing here, but I'm just a stupid kid.

[Lord Admiral Helden Ravensdorn]

Careful, Clonie.

You're starting to sound like me.

An' that jus' wont do.

[Clonie]

Careful, Clonie.

You're starting to sound like me.

An' that jus' wont do.

Except I'm not against Bionicle. :-P

[dviddy]

Well, could you show me an advanced and complex MOC then?

I can see how a part can be used by looking at it, just 'cause I don't use the parts much doesn't mean I can't figure out how they could be used.

Not to mention the construction of a MOC is mostly visible when you look at it, so I could see how a fair amount of it's built from pictures.

But of course, in the end I'm just a stupid idiot because I can't make OMG ultra-complex OMG advanced OMG ultra OMFG MOCs and I don't agree with you 100%. Do I care? Meh. I don't even know what I'm doing here, but I'm just a stupid kid.

You've clearly not been apart of the on-line fandom long enough. Otherwise you wouldn't scoff at the works of Cajun, THRAXISjr, etc by saying you've never seen a complex and advanced MOC. What an insult to the MOCing community you are.

No, you can't see how a piece can be used by just looking at it. You think you can? Go look at Cajun's Rack and then build it, since you can see how a MOC is built just by looking at it. Go look at any MOC with more than one layer and tell me how it's built.

Go ahead and tell me how this is built. Do it. Since the construction is so very visible when you look at it, tell me how it's built. Step-by-step. I really want to see how you'd build the torsos in the humanoid MOCs.

No, in the end you're not a stupid idiot because you insist on knowing things you have no real knowledge of. Not because you can't make OMFG MOCs, not because you insist that you don't need to build a MOC at all to see the infinite number of ways pieces can be put together, sometimes not even using the connection parts TLG has deigned to give us. Because you don't see the ways the thin tubing can be used to weave pieces together. How rods and pins can fit into holes or gaps where a piece cannot connect, but can be held by friction.

Because these are things that with no firsthand experience with, you could never truly understand or appreciate.

As a non-MOCing person, the only thing you can truly appreciate is aesthetics. And from what I've seen there are far better and sensible critics to be found than you.

<<DV>>

Edited July 4, 2007 by Darth Vader

[Starwars4J]

If one more person makes any sort of personal attack and/or insult I will close this topic. This is a place to have friendly discussion, and the occasional less-friendly debate. That does not give ANY right to start flinging mud and insults like a pair of children.

If I see any post with "idiot", "stupid" (referring to a person), or over exaggeration with 1337-speak, I'll have no choice but to remove posting abilities pending admin review. That is NOT acceptable, no matter how passionate you are about your point.

[dviddy]

If one more person makes any sort of personal attack and/or insult I will close this topic. This is a place to have friendly discussion, and the occasional less-friendly debate. That does not give ANY right to start flinging mud and insults like a pair of children.

If I see any post with "idiot", "stupid" (referring to a person), or over exaggeration with 1337-speak, I'll have no choice but to remove posting abilities pending admin review. That is NOT acceptable, no matter how passionate you are about your point.

Sorry, I left out a crucial 'not' in there on accident. Mind moving faster than the fingers and all that jazz.

<<DV>>