Rick Posted April 15, 2013 Posted April 15, 2013 Congratulations town, especially the head masons, Pandora and Nightshroud, and Pie who played a pivotal role in bringing us down. Night 4 was where you won it. We took the gamble that Hinck would not be tracked and blocked Walter again instead. You were unlucky so many town roles were known to us early in the game already. I couldn't believe so many people claimed to each other. It's one thing to "trust" someone so early, but if you factor in the risk of conversions... But town really compensated for losing their vig and protector early on by hiding their head masons well. We, on the other hand, were really unlucky that we killed scum on night 1 and that TBW never managed to recruit anyone. One more scum in the middle of the game could have easily tipped the balance completely. Thanks for hosting def. I had the feeling the balance was much better from the start this time. I never should have suggested the masons to you though. I still think balance is very delicate in this game setup and we basically lost the game when we lost Hinck. There was no real way to counter the mason recruitment. And another no, Rick surviving the night kill despite being mayor is not the sole reason why we lynched him, heck it's not even a big part of his lynch. I understand things added up against me at that point, but I think Walter's defence was the most important reason for lynching me. It doesn't really make sense to me to elect someone you suspect of being scum mayor on a day it was realistic it was 5-5 and then use it against them if they survive and the scum go for someone in the masons instead who they also know was the town tracker. So, well done Walter. I was surprised they didn't try to recruit you again, but I guess there was more value to confirming townies and preventing conversions (not knowing there was no converter left anymore).
Pandora Posted April 15, 2013 Posted April 15, 2013 It doesn't really make sense to me to elect someone you suspect of being scum mayor on a day it was realistic it was 5-5 and then use it against them if they survive and the scum go for someone in the masons instead who they also know was the town tracker. I agree that Walter should be praised for his defense, and it was the PMs I received from him after we failed to convert him that quelled some of the suspicion (but by no means all). The reason you were voted mayor? Dave decided to vote for you, again without discussing it with the rest of the Masons first, and people knew he was a Mason and so followed suit. The rest of the Masons wanted Dave to be mayor and already did find you scummy, but he felt it put him at greater risk as he was also the tracker and chose you, and acted accordingly, because he thought you were town. Sorry to snitch on you Dave, but I think this is an issue that needs to be cleared up.
Hinckley Posted April 15, 2013 Posted April 15, 2013 CallMePie, I am so very glad we chose to convert you on night one. You turned out to be the excellent choice we anticipated, and you hit the ground running in the Masons with information, opinion and theories. You worked so well with both me and Shroudy, and your selfless act of stepping forward, knowing there would be a massive target on your head, helped secure the victory for the town by starting a continuous link of confirmed townies. I think you played a great town game, and it was your townieness that led Dave to claim Tracker to to you, and thus his conversion into the Masons (prior to that revelation we had planned to convert Zepher). Additionally, you said the most sage comment when you joined the Masons and saw my paranoia laid bare in the conversation: "You're a Mason, you're supposed to be paranoid!" I hope I was clear about that as well. Pie, you continue to improve all the time and I enjoy it when you're part of a game. You played really well here. I subscribe to your paranoia and confirmation theory, of course, that's why it was so hard to keep up appearances with Dave. If I told him what I would as a Townie, he started suspecting me. But if I just went along with him and encouraged him to tell me everything he thought I was Town. The problem was I assumed he was posting all of our PMs to you and Pandora and that the two of you would see right through it. I wanted to be talking to all three of you and I was starting to realize there was a huge difference of opinion amongst the Masons so I started appealing directly to you and Pandora. I think my mistake was not posting all of our PMs for you (which I did for Pandora) to explain the madness I was going through with Dave. For example, I tried to talk him down from vig-killing Chromeknight (not that I had that control) and told him to think about what he was seeing and if Chromeknight would've acted like Scum in order to infiltrate. He was so mad at me for "doubting him." Side note: Dave actually quoted Darth Vader to me at one point. Dave, you should take away from this that you don't handle positions of power very well...or at least didn't. Dave said "I find your lack of faith in me...disturbing." Anyway, I really thought he would post all of my PMs and you two would see how I was pleading with him to be cautious and I tried to appeal to both of your sense of (supposed) aggravation with him. If I had been Town, I would've had a very very different conversation with Dave. It would've been the internet posting equivalent to a punch in the balls. No offense, Dave. Glad you're taking this as a learning experience. My point is: Pie, you played fantastically. Congratulations. Nice work. I agree that Walter should be praised for his defense, and it was the PMs I received from him after we failed to convert him that quelled some of the suspicion (but by no means all). The reason you were voted mayor? Dave decided to vote for you, again without discussing it with the rest of the Masons first, and people knew he was a Mason and so followed suit. The rest of the Masons wanted Dave to be mayor and already did find you scummy, but he felt it put him at greater risk as he was also the tracker and chose you, and acted accordingly, because he thought you were town. Sorry to snitch on you Dave, but I think this is an issue that needs to be cleared up. We were going to kill Dave if he was Mayor or not. Tracker was way too dangerous to keep around, even if he was buying all of our megablocks. And Dave, I don't mean to pick on you. Read Bloodbrick I where I was Jesus. I really gave the Scum the game on that one.
CMP Posted April 15, 2013 Posted April 15, 2013 And this is a great example of why a townie has to never give up when they're backed up against a wall. If Walter had been lynched instead of Rick, who knows what would have happened. Might not have made a huge difference but one more night phase and day for a good player like Rick to work with could have been significant. It's probably for the best I got killed when I did, then, because Walt was next up on my list... I felt so bad when I tracked Hinck and it turned out he had targetted Pandora; you all have to understand that I gave EVERYTHING I had (as a masson) to Hinck even though my head mason Pandora advised me against it several times. I was convinced (up to day 4) that Hinck was town anf had a PR hence his laying low and as such I felt confident I could trust him ... such a mistake! I'm still really glad you tracked me and got converted, despite trusting Hinck too much. You pretty much were half the reason behind TBW's and Hinck's lynches. I'm glad you've learned something, that's a lot of mafia is - improving as a player. I must admit, I wasn't really proud of how I started this game, and midway amidst the consecutive lynches of townies I really felt frustrated and even didn't want to participate at all (hence, the inactivity). It's only when CMP made that crucial revelation on Hinck that gave me a glimmer of hope for this game. As far as my scum-reading skills are concerned, I was rather all-over the place. Thinking Hinck and Rick were town and Pandy was scum? Leading the lynch on Scouty? The only read I was quite proud of was I was fairly certain that Chromeknight was town, and I even made a late case to save him (but nothing can really stop a bandwagon). My initial hunch on Redblade on Day 1, though weakly unsubstantiated, seemed to have been correct in the end, but it was mostly due to his scummy behavior in the last two days. You ended on a pretty good note, though. You really planned for almost anything after Redblade's lynch once you got inducted into the Masons, despite the fact you were probably only going to survive for another day. Panda and Nightshroud were both really awesome this game. The choice of conversion targets was awesome throughout the entire game, with only two failed recruitments, one due to a block. I'm super glad I got converted early, I don't think I've ever played a bigger part as a townie in a mafia game, especially as a vanilla, and I hardly would've gotten the chance if I hadn't ended up in the masons. Pandora was pretty much the mason leader up until she got killed, always keeping a level (if paranoid, of anyone that wasn't a mason ) head and constantly putting things together through Dave's PM chain and posts in the day threads. I thought for sure we were all screwed when you got killed. Shroud played a fantastic game. I'll echo everyone else and say that although he was always on someone's radar, he never seemed to do much in the day thread. For a head mason, there's hardly a better game to be playing in public. You weren't interfered with once the entire game while recruiting mason after mason, which shows how well you played it. I'm particularly glad of what you said on Day Five in the PM, that you were voting Hinck regardless of what me and Dave thought. That one post is what slapped the sense into me that there was no way we could let Hinck live through another day. :thumbup: The scum did great, too. Panda thought Rick was the vig up until the conversion on him failed. I'm amazed at how well you and Hinck covered your tracks with the phony PMs, and both of you had, what, three PRs nailed down by Day Three?? Another day and you probably would've had it. You fractured the town early on by getting rid of the protector and vig. You guys played an awesome game.
Piratedave84 Posted April 15, 2013 Posted April 15, 2013 SNIP Endgame, Kiel and, latterly, Zepher. Thank you for continuing the fight to the end; I could still see all your discussions, and your voting plan in case Redblade wasn't the last scum was sound and strategical. It was very clear how your decisions came about through discussion and bouncing ideas off each other (and with Shroudy), and it was this activity that signalled the beginning of the end. SNIP Oh yes, I meant to reference that in my post! This is what i also talked about in the writeboard, Kiel's strategy to confirm Peanuts and Walter was brilliant! I agree that Walter should be praised for his defense, and it was the PMs I received from him after we failed to convert him that quelled some of the suspicion (but by no means all). The reason you were voted mayor? Dave decided to vote for you, again without discussing it with the rest of the Masons first, and people knew he was a Mason and so followed suit. The rest of the Masons wanted Dave to be mayor and already did find you scummy, but he felt it put him at greater risk as he was also the tracker and chose you, and acted accordingly, because he thought you were town. Sorry to snitch on you Dave, but I think this is an issue that needs to be cleared up. It is true that you were already under scrutiny by the others; this was very selfish on my part, I did not want to be mayor! I hope I was clear about that as well. Pie, you continue to improve all the time and I enjoy it when you're part of a game. You played really well here. I subscribe to your paranoia and confirmation theory, of course, that's why it was so hard to keep up appearances with Dave. If I told him what I would as a Townie, he started suspecting me. But if I just went along with him and encouraged him to tell me everything he thought I was Town. The problem was I assumed he was posting all of our PMs to you and Pandora and that the two of you would see right through it. I wanted to be talking to all three of you and I was starting to realize there was a huge difference of opinion amongst the Masons so I started appealing directly to you and Pandora. I think my mistake was not posting all of our PMs for you (which I did for Pandora) to explain the madness I was going through with Dave. For example, I tried to talk him down from vig-killing Chromeknight (not that I had that control) and told him to think about what he was seeing and if Chromeknight would've acted like Scum in order to infiltrate. He was so mad at me for "doubting him." Side note: Dave actually quoted Darth Vader to me at one point. Dave, you should take away from this that you don't handle positions of power very well...or at least didn't. Dave said "I find your lack of faith in me...disturbing." Anyway, I really thought he would post all of my PMs and you two would see how I was pleading with him to be cautious and I tried to appeal to both of your sense of (supposed) aggravation with him. If I had been Town, I would've had a very very different conversation with Dave. It would've been the internet posting equivalent to a punch in the balls. No offense, Dave. Glad you're taking this as a learning experience. My point is: Pie, you played fantastically. Congratulations. Nice work. We were going to kill Dave if he was Mayor or not. Tracker was way too dangerous to keep around, even if he was buying all of our megablocks. And Dave, I don't mean to pick on you. Read Bloodbrick I where I was Jesus. I really gave the Scum the game on that one. Yeah I was really bad; Hinck told me to tone it down like 5 times before I listened and dropped out of the Walt/Hinck/Dave PM ... and even then it was for the wrong reasons, I thought Walt was scum ... and Hinck was town ... with a PR ... I said it in the writeboard already; I know I am not good with power and I was a bit irritated when I was thrust in the spotlight after Pie cam out as a mason. Then I flailed uncontrolably until I died ... Pandora .... I'm still waiting for my new title!!!!
Pandora Posted April 15, 2013 Posted April 15, 2013 Pandora .... I'm still waiting for my new title!!!! I already administered it, so check again. I think it sums you up.
TrumpetKing Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 This game was honestly probably my favorite game that I've played so far, even if I was the first one lynched. TBW, I think you should have tried a little harder to claim scum to me, because "Give up the names of your teammates" won't cut it. I'm sorry, but I think you are worthy of an Antoine Dodson concert. PirateDave, I'm sorry to say it, but I think you are worthy too, even if you tried to help. Blabbing to Hinck and then flailing was a really, really dumb way to play the game. I really hope you've learned a lesson. Heck, I'll give myself one too. I played pretty awfully and stupidly, too. And I just like doing this. U r so dummm, cuz u r rilly dumm, fo' rill I hope you two aren't offended, I'm just picking fun at you. In fact, it can be seen as a good thing, because it helps people with their games. But seriously, no harm intended. At all. I promise.
XimenaPaulina Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 @Dave: If it makes you feel better, I think every new mafia player goes through this "easily trusts Hinck/Shadows/Draggy/any wily cunning vet only to get duped in the end" phase (I had that moment of weakness in Bloodbrick II when I trusted Shadows easily) . This will be indeed a learning experience, and after this game you'll never see Hinck the same way again in these games. But I must say I was thoroughly impressed with your energy and excitement in this game (it shows both in the game thread and behind-the-scenes ), and that's a good thing. (you just have to control it). One thing I realized in this game is I could never ever do what the likes of Hinck and Rick does in terms of MMPMI (Massive Multi-PM Interactions ), I think that's what one signficant attribute that really makes them great mafia players.
TrumpetKing Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 @Dave: If it makes you feel better, I think every new mafia player goes through this "easily trusts Hinck/Shadows/Draggy/any wily cunning vet only to get duped in the end" phase Ooooh! Ooh! Pick me! Pick me! I did! I did!
def Posted April 16, 2013 Author Posted April 16, 2013 I think every new mafia player goes through this "easily trusts Hinck/Shadows/Draggy/any wily cunning vet only to get duped in the end" phase Hopefully that fetish will eventually die out, since it's bad for games. There's some truth to the notion that if a solid veteran is alive day five, and they have no connection to the town block, there's a solid chance they are scum. But on day one, they shouldn't be obvious targets. Even for scum. They can use that argument to lynch a living veteran later in the game! I still think meta-gaming is something you have to do. If not, it's like throwing part of your arsenal in the garbage before the game starts.
Dannylonglegs Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 (edited) I'll give you a hard time about the day one role PM thing for a long long time, but overall, you did good. I think you deserve the win. You could have been recruited, and a day one vanilla clear meant little in this game. That'll do pig, that'll do. The host has so many things to say! I insinuate a little in the morning vignettes, but I really can't say it all. Having an omnipotent eye over things gives me an unfair advantage in critiquing things, but it should be considered as feedback, for better or worse. Whether players know or not, all hosts keep an eye on who pays attention to things after they die, even in games they aren't hosting. Players who wipe their signature of their mafia identity the moment they die are less beloved. When you sign up, you sign up to the end. The deadboard is meant to support that. Speaking of which, Danny, where the hell are you? There was a Deadboard? Whoops, I must have forgotten about that after looking at it. I was having a busy week and it slipped my mind, and no one had posted much in it. I feel I did rather poorly this game, although, I thought I was killed by the Townies. I was very busy for the entirety of the game, and I almost asked to be removed, but I saw that someone had already done so, so I decided to grin and bear it. I had fun, that first day, but I didn't expect to last very long, particularly considering my experience in the game before. I was fortunately in the position of being expected to act somewhat scummy by the game mechanics, so I was sort of relieved in that respect, but I still feel like I didn't have enough time to devote to the Game. I was really worried that I'd let my teammate down, and I was worried about that from the start. I hope you're not annoyed with me BoyWonder for dying so quickly. I think that I'm going to be taking a brief break from Mafia (probably jut one or two games) due to my busy schedule and finals coming up. I'm thinking of doing the same for Heroica, only playing one game, and not QMing for a while. I'm interested to know why I was targeted by Hink. Was I being too Towny, or was I just one of those "not important outlier" types. ~Insectoid Aristocrat Edited April 16, 2013 by Dannylonglegs
Fugazi Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 Thank you for an entertaining game def! From a player perspective I found that being a vanilla was especially difficult in this context, but from an outsider perspective the game had a good pace and every day had good moments. I deliberately avoided the dead board -- having been killed so early I decided that I would just follow the game and keep guessing. Congrats to all the players, both scum and town did very well! I can't say the same for myself, crossing the fine line between suspicious and scummy. I gambled that the vig wouldn't kill me over those tells, and lost. Not my best moment for sure!
Hinckley Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 I'm interested to know why I was targeted by Hink. Was I being too Towny, or was I just one of those "not important outlier" types. We could tell you were disengaged and thought that was a Town tell. We knew we had to pay so much attention to what was going on, a recruiter wasn't likely to be so absent. And at the same time, your inactivity and vote from Walter made you a reasonable vig target. We thought I was likely to be tracked and wanted to be able to say that I was the vig and see how long we could get away with it. We assumed I would be metagamed out by Night Actions long before Day Four, so I was being pretty bold by killing anyway. It really was unfortunate for us that we killed you on Night One. That's a huge reason we lost. We lost a mason block (well should have, Boy Wonder, ) and Boy Wonder was never able to convert, choosing a Scum and a Mason as targets. What made you choose me for Night One conversion? So unfortunate that the two Scum teams targeted each other on Night One.
TheBoyWonder Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 Hinckley and Rick, we felt were good choices based on meta gaming reasons. KDM, having played with him in Gotham, I knew he was a good player, and CMP proved our downfall. Good game all!
Endgame Posted April 17, 2013 Posted April 17, 2013 I apologize for not being very active in the beginning, but after Palathadric died I picked up the pace - especially when I got inducted into the Masons. Thanks for hosting such a great game, Def.
Scouty Posted April 17, 2013 Posted April 17, 2013 Li'l Scouty - You got shafted. There was little you could do. Yeah, no other way to put it really. Just those annoying early game jitters. Would have loved to play longer, but I started andgot booted out on the wrong foot. Being lynched, I'm not sure how well my scum reads were, but by the end I did figure TBW, Rick, and Danny (day one assumption) to be most likely scum (though I did have some town pegged as that, too...). I would have probably pursued TBW and Rick more had I lived since I didn't find their game suspect (Rick since he only analyzed and spot out errors in people, but didn't pursue it beyond that, so that raised a red flag in my view; TBW, said so before, but obvious scum perspective.) how much of that enlightenment was from being lynched, I don't know, probably wouldn't have suspected as much if I was let off the hook. Oh well, wish I could have played more, maybe next game then
CorneliusMurdock Posted April 17, 2013 Posted April 17, 2013 Oh well, wish I could have played more, maybe next game then That's what I keep telling myself , too.
Cecilie Posted April 17, 2013 Posted April 17, 2013 Thank you for an entertaining game def! From a player perspective I found that being a vanilla was especially difficult in this context, but from an outsider perspective the game had a good pace and every day had good moments. I deliberately avoided the dead board -- having been killed so early I decided that I would just follow the game and keep guessing. Congrats to all the players, both scum and town did very well! I can't say the same for myself, crossing the fine line between suspicious and scummy. I gambled that the vig wouldn't kill me over those tells, and lost. Not my best moment for sure! Sorry . I was going back and forth about you for a long time before deciding. I was saying to myself "why would Foog be so obviously scummy? Isn't he too smart for that? But maybe that's his plan? Maybe he's trying to signal the other scum team?" And in the end I decided you were the best option, likely not being a power role with that kind of attitude, so worst case I'd be killing a vanilla...
Rick Posted April 17, 2013 Posted April 17, 2013 Li'l Rick - You did a good job maintaining your normal attitude in thread. If someone compared your scum game to your town game, it would be hard to see a difference. With that in mind, I totally agreed with the questioning about why you were alive on day five. It's meta, but it's true. And also, you and Hinck always work so closely, so I thought the distance you were keeping looked scummy. But that was me knowing what was true. Thanks def. Being alive so late in the game was a significant part of the case against me and one that was hard to argue against. I was not recruitable into the masons and decided to not claim a PR to the town block, because they had an overview of the town PRs and anything I'd claim would be unbelievable. So, not knowing who the head mason was, we decided it was best to block and then kill the one role, the tracker, that could figure out I did have a NA. Rick since he only analyzed and spot out errors in people, but didn't pursue it beyond that, so that raised a red flag in my view I tend to always do that, whether I play town or scum, but I think it was important in this kind of game for scum and town alike (town was a lot like scum in this setup): poke a bit and see how people respond.
Piratedave84 Posted April 17, 2013 Posted April 17, 2013 Li'l Pirate Dave - Yeah, you know what you did. It's one thing to blab your own secrets, but blabbing others is the worst! You kind of do wreck people's game. I was pissed for Hinck doing it to me in the Pearl. It really is a case by case thing, and sometimes it's good to blab, but in this game, all information should have been filtering into the Masons, and nothing going the other direction. Your name will become a verb for shafting other players by blabbing, so that should teach you. "Don't Dave me, man! You'll wreck my game!" I know ; it was bad!And now I've been 'verbed' ... this one will follow me for a while ... Thanks for hosting, this was definitely an excellent setup and a great game! Li'l Cecilie - You got Dave'd out of the game. One thing I can say, you didn't do the TrumpetKing thing and kill every night. If you had, town would have lost. So being prudent with your night action helped keep town alive. Your role in the wrong hands may have doomed town. I don't think I had nothing to do with Cece's death ... Hinck was aware of her role through Walter, not me.
Cecilie Posted April 17, 2013 Posted April 17, 2013 I don't think I had nothing to do with Cece's death ... Hinck was aware of her role through Walter, not me. Walter Dave'd me
Hinckley Posted April 17, 2013 Posted April 17, 2013 I don't think I had nothing to do with Cece's death ... Hinck was aware of her role through Walter, not me. Double negatives are hilarious. Truth be told, Cecilie Dave'd herself. Her posts in thread may as well have said "I am the vigilante! Scum should kill me! " Sorry, it's true. We kind of knew from those posts and if anything Cornelius confirmed it by asking Rick how to get in touch with the Masons because he knew someone important he wanted inducted into the Masonic Temple. So, we knew he was talking to Cecilie and we knew he wanted to get someone important into the Masons and we had Cecilie's posts. Walter actually did me a disservice by connecting me to the knowledge directly. He "slipped up" during that weird day when I was yelling at Dave and Walter who had two very conflicting stories about what they'd said to each other and what their Night Action targets and results had been.
Cecilie Posted April 17, 2013 Posted April 17, 2013 Double negatives are hilarious. Truth be told, Cecilie Dave'd herself. Her posts in thread may as well have said "I am the vigilante! Scum should kill me! " I know . I totally messed up... I was kicking myself for not being more careful long before I got killed... It's hard to conceal that you know something!! I need more practice with that...
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