One thing I liked about the classic sets for themes such as Town, Castle and Pirates was the simple construction they used. They didn't have all those fancey pieces, just simple ones that made the sets much nicer to have on display and more detailed. The newer ones today seem so bulky and lack detail. The castles are probally the worst. In the 90s they looked like castles. Today most of the castles look like a single wall with giant curvey pieces stuck on the sides. Plus instead of having swords and motorbikes that are to scale, we have these giant cartoonish looking things.

Also the minifigures. Back in the 90s, you would have the smiley face. What made the smiley face so good was that there were so many variations. One would have eyebrows printed on. Another would have a moustache. Another would have a stubble. Another would replace the smiley mouth with female lips. They were basic, but it allowed for much more flexability for mixing and matching. They could be used for almost anything and just the different colour of a beard was enough to make 2 figures seem like two completely different people. Now most themes have these cartoonish looking faces with big cheesy grins and anime eyes that is impossible to use for much else.

While the newer pieces being made by Lego are making liscened themes like Batman, Star Wars and Harry Potter even more better, they are really making the generic standard themes worse. Does anyone else feel the simple, basic construction for the non-liscenced sets in the 90s was much better than the current trend of simple, one wall <insert that tiresome argument> sets with all the fancy new pieces?

I agree, but not to everything you said.

As I also wrote yesterday in my introduction for new members, I miss the more detailed sets, but theses had their best times even back in the 80s, not the 90s. I also miss the variety that for example city-sets had back then. On the other hand I think that LEGO got better again during the last couple of years. You can see a trend going back to more simple themes again, my only complaint about them is being to "technically". Look at the Viking-series: It's like a mixture of Sci-Fi and Vikings, if you know what I mean. I also miss civilian sets outside the City-series, it's all about fighting nowadays. Why don't they produce nice shops and similar sets for the Castle-theme, for example?

I do not completely agree to your statement about the minifigs. Do you remember that the first variations of their faces (although they still all had the smiley-look) came with the new Pirates-Theme? That was a revolution back then, I even felt that when I was a kid - and I loved it. Before that all minifigs had the very same face (perhaps with the eception of female minifigs, I'm not sure when they first got other lips and eyes). Perhaps a few more still smiling minifig-faces today would be nice, but in general I still consider the different expressions a enrichment.

But the way LEGO changed over the centuries is a very interesting and complex story, anyway. As I'm relatively new to this community I'd too love to hear what you other membrs think about this.

oh we've discussed "juniorisation" several times before (just as the disappaerance of old grey, but, let's not get into that again, since we do have some highly sensitive members on our boards :-P ;-) .

Evidently, the opinions are mixed about this matter.

For me, it's not so much "juniorisation" that's changed. Lego has always been designed for young people and many sets of the past were most definetely not detailed; Take the "galaxy explorer": the thing has a huge building on top of its grey wing, but what's really inside? Not even a seat! Only two computers and a steering wheel, I believe... Compare that with the yellow sub of the AR theme. The current city sets, like the cement mixer or the big yellow dump truck, the fire truck,... they're all nicely detailed... I agree with your remarks on the castle theme, but then we come to what has really changed compared to the old days:

Playability has become far more important than building sets. Sets are now part of pre-fabricated stories, stories that put everything, including minifigs, in a specific context. Shooting mechanisms are now even part of the sw sets. the same goes for the castle theme: the idea behind "castle" is no longer a classic King Arthur story or a knight's tournement, castle these days, is far more focused on conflict and on army building. Mind you, that is exactlty what many castle fans have been asking for... In a broader economic context, i'd say that the consumer has become very lazy and wants some direct output from whatever product he buys. He doesn't want to spend hours of figuring out what goes where, he buys it, plays with it and throws it away... he doesn't want to have to put too much effort in it... Same with Lego: the company not only provides the product as simple as possible, but also creates everything around it, so the poor customer doesn't really have to do much extra, then basically to put it out of the box and to play with it... That's different compared to the early 80's when Lego was still perceived as a construction toy, even though many sets didn't have more bricks than today's sets... Sure, many sets today are very very very large. I think that's part of our modern world too. Sets have to be noticed, they have to impress potential customers. However, it does not mean these sets are <insert that tiresome argument>. I wouldn't say that Lego's airplane is only for very young kids, too simple for older ones, like us... ;-)

I also don't like the manga styled minifig heads, still, that's part of exo force, as long as they're limited to that theme, i'll live with it...

I think the whole issue with

All in all, I think its simple nostalgia that

I definitely agree that the older sets were far superior to just about any of the newer sets outside of a few really amazing sets that been made for older/more serious collectors. But, it seems the sets we've seen coming out this year are taking a big step in the right direction, the new town sets are the best I've seen since the juniorization started in '97 or so. Hopefully Lego is going back to it's roots a bit.

I will say, since juniorization, Lego has produced some of the finest, most detailed sets they ever have. Sets like the Santa Fe train engine, the UCS Star Wars sets and several others are more detailed than anything they had ever designed before mid 90's and juniorization. Hopefully they continue producing some of these amazingly detailed sets, along with the better and more basic sets for town, castle etc. I think from the looks of sets like the new Designer House this year, they may be doing that.

you know, i have never discussed this topic in full... so i'll give my two cents...

let me start at the beginning... i think it is impossible for a set (or single piece) pre-2001 to be considered "<insert that tiresome argument>".

juniorization is a term coined when building styles or elements from the younger 4+ Juniors line entered the more advanced 5+ SYSTEM line. that said, juniorization has nothing to do with the perspective of the AFOL. it is that the SYSTEM line's complexity became downgraded when techniques were applied from the 4+ Juniors line...

thus the term "junior"-ization of the SYSTEM line.

however, i think the only theme that suffers from juniorization is KK2. castle fans have the right to be upset by that line. i mean, other than the SYSTEM scale minifigs, KK2 uses elements and a building style more similar to 4+ Juniors than SYSTEM. thus, it is seen as <insert that tiresome argument>.

that said, i don't think any other theme can appropriately be described as <insert that tiresome argument>.

and just for the record, the AquaRaiders (2007) line is one of the most detailed lines yet... it is far from junior-ish ;-)

i think with KK2 out of the way, we are coming out of the age of "juniorization". and until we see another SYSTEM theme like KK2, the word junioriation should be left out of the SYSTEM builders vocabulary. because, as it has been said before, large pieces have been apart of LEGO lines since the 90's, so that definition alone cannot classify a set (or single piece) as <insert that tiresome argument>.

- BrickMiner

i think with KK2 out of the way, we are coming out of the age of "juniorization". and until we see another SYSTEM theme like KK2, the word junioriation should be left out of the SYSTEM builders vocabulary. because, as it has been said before, large pieces have been apart of LEGO lines since the 90's, so that definition alone cannot classify a set (or single piece) as <insert that tiresome argument>.

- BrickMiner

the first set that comes to mind is the new airplane...

that in my book is a lot more <insert that tiresome argument> that any other lego airplane..

the word "<insert that tiresome argument>" for me also means a set with a lot of "special" big pieces that cant be used for anything else but for the reason they are made for..

like the new duplo pitares..the whole boat is only made with a very few pieces and almost all of them are designed only for that reason..

and no i am not saying that a lego horse or a lego system boat is <insert that tiresome argument> but the cockpit of the new airplane is..

I also don't like the manga styled minifig heads, still, that's part of exo force, as long as they're limited to that theme, i'll live with it...

Useless, non-reusable character-specific faces, more clones to toss with each new set...

actually, incompatibility with other minifigs wouldn't bug me so much if they werent so UGLY!

It's like TLC decided to use DragonBallZ as their reference material for 'manga', ugh, they don't look anything remotely close to a typical manga...at least not a good one

Ironically, the Avator head looks pretty good in comparison, even though Avatar is an american cartoon! (still not worth buying though, that huge grin hes got is just scary :-D )

you know, i have never discussed this topic in full... so i'll give my two cents...

let me start at the beginning... i think it is impossible for a set (or single piece) pre-2001 to be considered "<insert that tiresome argument>".

juniorization is a term coined when building styles or elements from the younger 4+ Juniors line entered the more advanced 5+ SYSTEM line. that said, juniorization has nothing to do with the perspective of the AFOL. it is that the SYSTEM line's complexity became downgraded when techniques were applied from the 4+ Juniors line...

thus the term "junior"-ization of the SYSTEM line.

however, i think the only theme that suffers from juniorization is KK2. castle fans have the right to be upset by that line. i mean, other than the SYSTEM scale minifigs, KK2 uses elements and a building style more similar to 4+ Juniors than SYSTEM. thus, it is seen as <insert that tiresome argument>.

that said, i don't think any other theme can appropriately be described as <insert that tiresome argument>.

and just for the record, the AquaRaiders (2007) line is one of the most detailed lines yet... it is far from junior-ish ;-)

i think with KK2 out of the way, we are coming out of the age of "juniorization". and until we see another SYSTEM theme like KK2, the word junioriation should be left out of the SYSTEM builders vocabulary. because, as it has been said before, large pieces have been apart of LEGO lines since the 90's, so that definition alone cannot classify a set (or single piece) as <insert that tiresome argument>.

- BrickMiner

I agree with most of what you said, but, sets like this in '97 is when juniorization started IMO. They started painting the car lights onto bricks instead of using clear stud pieces, no doors on the cars, building made of only a few pieces and lacking detail etc.

Town is definitely getting much better now, but it's still not quite where it was IMO. There are some really cool things they're doing with town that are more advanced than what they did in the 80's and 90's, but there's still a little something missing that I can't quite put a finger on.

Well, yeah i agree with what our saying for exo-force, but seriously, we are not in the '80's and '90's anymore, everything changes, and it appears lego has, so i'd just grin and bare it.

you know, i have never discussed this topic in full... so i'll give my two cents...

let me start at the beginning... i think it is impossible for a set (or single piece) pre-2001 to be considered "<insert that tiresome argument>".

juniorization is a term coined when building styles or elements from the younger 4+ Juniors line entered the more advanced 5+ SYSTEM line. that said, juniorization has nothing to do with the perspective of the AFOL. it is that the SYSTEM line's complexity became downgraded when techniques were applied from the 4+ Juniors line...

thus the term "junior"-ization of the SYSTEM line.

- BrickMiner

I don't think that's what the community means with this term. I think most people refer to "<insert that tiresome argument> themes" as themes/sets that are too simple to fit the standards of the system line all together, because of simplistic designs, very large pieces,... I think the late 90s city sets come pretty close... I don't think there's a direct reference to the Junior line as such. That kinda reopens the discussion, doesn't it? X-D

Well, yeah i agree with what our saying for exo-force, but seriously, we are not in the '80's and '90's anymore, everything changes, and it appears lego has, so i'd just grin and bare it.

I agree... everything changes

you know, i have never discussed this topic in full... so i'll give my two cents...

let me start at the beginning... i think it is impossible for a set (or single piece) pre-2001 to be considered "<insert that tiresome argument>".

juniorization is a term coined when building styles or elements from the younger 4+ Juniors line entered the more advanced 5+ SYSTEM line. that said, juniorization has nothing to do with the perspective of the AFOL. it is that the SYSTEM line's complexity became downgraded when techniques were applied from the 4+ Juniors line...

thus the term "junior"-ization of the SYSTEM line.

- BrickMiner

Untrue.

Juiorization has been a term used by AFOLs since the late 90s. If you do a search on Lugnet, you will find that the term begins appearing as early as 1998. It has absolutely nothing to do with LEGO's 4+ line, as its use predates that line by several years.

Juniorization has EVERYTHING to do with the perspective of the AFOL. The term was created by AFOLs who were concerned with the dumbing down of the LEGO product line in the mid to late 1990s. During that time, sets became incredibly simple, allowing for easy play, but limited building. A noticeable trend in themes like Adventures was the introduction of colour-coded building. That is to say, bricks that were similar, but not the same were coloured differently to simplify building (for a great example, look at the orginal Millennium Falcon). A 1x3 brick might be blue, whereas a 1x4 brick would be red. This meant that young kids wouldn't mix up the instructions, inserting the wrong brick in the wrong place. Another more obvious trend was the move towards specialized elements in the place of basic bricks. It was the reaction to these and other trends that resulted in the AFOL term "<insert that tiresome argument>".

Now, most fans use the word to describe a set or line that has a disproportionate number of specialized single-use bricks. These sets simply lack a decent ratio of special-to-basic bricks. Anything MOCed out of these sets has an aesthetic that is largely determined by the limited nature and over abundance of specialized single-purpose elements. Needless to say, these l"<insert that tiresome argument>" sets have proven to be somewhat less popular among adult collectors who are looking for greater building challenges and better materials for MOCing.

Juiorization has been a term used by AFOLs since the late 90s. If you do a search on Lugnet, you will find that the term begins appearing as early as 1998. It has absolutely nothing to do with LEGO's 4+ line, as its use predates that line by several years.

hmmm... so your saying that the AFOL community started using the derivate word "junior" before the LEGO company itself ???

that seems strange to me... however, it is possible that the LEGO hobby is one where the fans (in some cases) are further along in describing and interpreting the hobby than the company that produced the hobby itself.

i have always been under the impression that "junior" was a term LEGO started. it's very rare that a company would incorporate derogative terminology (such as the word "junior") started by the fan community. i guess in the case of the 4+ line it was only fitting :-D

- BrickMiner

hmmm... so your saying that the AFOL community started using the derivate word "junior" before the LEGO company itself ???

that seems strange to me... however, it is possible that the LEGO hobby is one where the fans (in some cases) are further along in describing and interpreting the hobby than the company that produced the hobby itself.

i have always been under the impression that "junior" was a term LEGO started. it's very rare that a company would incorporate derogative terminology (such as the word "junior") started by the fan community. i guess in the case of the 4+ line it was only fitting :-D

- BrickMiner

If I'm not mistaken, "Town Jr." is a term the Lego community made up. It started with the 1997 system town sets. You can look on Lugnet and those sets will be listed under "Town Jr.". Then the term juniorization came along to describe the town sets and the other product lines that started showing the same dumbing down as the town line did.

That's how I've heard it anyway.

If I'm not mistaken, "Town Jr." is a term the Lego community made up. It started with the 1997 system town sets.

i love how this thread has become a history of the word "<insert that tiresome argument>" ;-) maybe a topic not discussed as much as juniorization itself. gives this thread a unique spin on all the other juniorization EB threads from the past :-D

in any case, it's obvious i need to do some research on this Town Junior line.

thanks for pointing this out to me C22 !!!

- BM

Town is definitely getting much better now, but it's still not quite where it was IMO. There are some really cool things they're doing with town that are more advanced than what they did in the 80's and 90's, but there's still a little something missing that I can't quite put a finger on.

Easy: today it's a city the sets are revolving around, back in the 80s it was a town. The overall look and feel has changed...

yes and what exactly do you mean by "the newer themes"

i hope you dont mean things like exo-force. im not a great fan of that line but atleast their using LED s to light up their stuff!

and your saying that that nre ucs millenium falcon is junoirized are you?

If I'm not mistaken, "Town Jr." is a term the Lego community made up. It started with the 1997 system town sets. You can look on Lugnet and those sets will be listed under "Town Jr.". Then the term juniorization came along to describe the town sets and the other product lines that started showing the same dumbing down as the town line did.

That's how I've heard it anyway.

Nope, that is not true. in my 1997 catalog the line is divided up in two parts Town (from 5-12) and town junior (4-10). Later on regular town just kinda disappeared. Town jr is a term introduced by lego themselves not the community. In the catalog it even states how great it is that you have to built less now!! Typical features of town junior are cars with no roof.

Town jr is a term introduced by lego themselves not the community.

Yes, and <insert that tiresome argument> was derived from this line (or that's when I first noticed it cropping up on Lugnet...) to describe the awful tendency.

God Bless,

Nathan

Nope, that is not true. in my 1997 catalog the line is divided up in two parts Town (from 5-12) and town junior (4-10). Later on regular town just kinda disappeared. Town jr is a term introduced by lego themselves not the community. In the catalog it even states how great it is that you have to built less now!! Typical features of town junior are cars with no roof.

Exactly.

Its the term "juniorization" that was coined in the community to describe not only this line, but a generalized trend towards the oversimplification of sets. Allthough Town Jr. expressly targeted a younger audience, other lines were implicitly following this trend. Fortunately, LEGO seems to have done something of a 180 turn with some lines (noteably, Creator and Star Wars), producing some fairly challenging builds. Other lines like KKII and Exo-Force, catoring to a younger audience continue to be more <insert that tiresome argument>, however they don't really compare to the simple designs of the 90s.

yes and what exactly do you mean by "the newer themes"

i hope you dont mean things like exo-force. im not a great fan of that line but atleast their using LED s to light up their stuff!

and your saying that that nre ucs millenium falcon is junoirized are you?

Who are you talking to???

And who said the new falcon is <insert that tiresome argument>?

I agree... everything changes

I thankyou!

yes and what exactly do you mean by "the newer themes"

i hope you dont mean things like exo-force. im not a great fan of that line but atleast their using LED s to light up their stuff!

and your saying that that nre ucs millenium falcon is junoirized are you?

Well i'd say exo force, IMO it's not lego. Well.... i don't get it, i don't know any adults that like it, they prefer the classic stuff.

Sorry, did i miss something? When did he say that? :-/

Yes, and <insert that tiresome argument> was derived from this line (or that's when I first noticed it cropping up on Lugnet...) to describe the awful tendency.

ok, gottach guys... i stand corrected on my initial post in this thread :-$

now we have some kind of definition to "<insert that tiresome argument>" (a topic sometimes in question) by determining its origin... thanks for the enlightenment X-D

- BrickMiner