Zepher Posted May 13, 2013 Author Posted May 13, 2013 Time for some answers! I'm not adverse to changing the rules a little (in fact, I'm relatively sure I WILL change the rules before the game begins) but for now, I will just respond to some of the questions/critiques. 3. A bulletproof SK? This is one mechanic I am ABSOLUTELY keeping in. I included a lot of roles and powers to deter only night kills and waiting on investigations. I want this to be a lynch based game. The SK will HAVE to be lynched, which will give the town and scum an interesting incentive to work together on at least one day. Like a Dreaming God? If so, what kind of rules will they be able to alter? Whoa, that can cause a violent swing in balance. I used a motivator once and only allowed it to be used every other night. Will a killer be able to kill twice? The Town has a protector and there will always be a way for two more to get protection from beginning of the game to the end? That may make it hard for Scum or SK to kill. What happens if the person with the pill dies at night? Will the pill be removed from the game? Or will you just remove a placebo every time a player is lynched or killed? 4 ways to block. Hmmm... do you want to run a role madness game? That's what these modifiers are making it sound like. Too many ideas, maybe... Sorry to say. More ways to block and protect? Sheesh. Why have inventors when you have the pills? This is sounding like you will have very complicated nights... What the fuckling? What? He can pass along two Scum Actions how? This needs a little more definition. Pass along from a dead Scum? Bulletproof and ascetic? If he's "Inscrutable" how would a role cop get a result on him? Thank you for your feedback! It is extremely helpful. I will try to either address the issues, or fix them. It is almost exactly like the Dream God. The God Pills are the only thing about the game that will NOT be open before hand. They are also probably the only other thing I really don't plan to budge on. The motivator does indeed make things a little funky. However (and this answers one of your questions) with the exception of a GOD PILL, if the player who had the pill is lynched or killed during the night, the pill will be removed from the game. That makes it less likely that there will be a motivator often. There is also a good chance that a vanilla will get one of the pills early on. The town has a protector, yes, but he is ALSO the investigator. He must use one of the two, so I'd assume it would be a 50/50 split. Likewise, the Life Savers could possibly be used by the scum, so none of the pills really favor one side or the other. You are right. I have now cut the Pill Expert. The Pill Expert on both sides will be replaced with a Universal Back-Up. This allows me to cut the Ducklings (also to serve as a universal back-up) and the Inventor's ability to pass along abilities. I believe that addresses a number of issues, and cuts down on the roles a little. Tell me what you think of the changes! I will also be adding the provision that, as per most of your games, the scum may drop an action to save the action of a dead teammate. The Inventor and Inscrutable Roles will stay tied to each other. The SK can be found to be a Killer by the Role Cop because there are three killers, and it will certainly not out the SK, but will cast suspicion. I believe it is fair. Maybe I need a different word for it than Inscrutable. 1. I played in Eurodina. 3. I'm going to fall in with Hinck. Less is more. Right now, winning has less to do with strategy than it does with lottery. But, it's great that you're putting it upfront; there's nothing to complain about if you know that's what you're signing up for 1) You're in! 3) Tell me what you think of the changes! Actually, you can fix a lot by getting rid of the ducklings/inventors/JOATs. Inventors are sticking around. Ducklings are removed. JOATs will remain in. I hate people waiting for investigations. Knowing that the town has to choose between investigating and protecting means that the vanillas will really be forced to think. A NOTE ON MY LOVE FOR INVENTORS: They have the ability to give vanilla's the ability to DO something, even if only once. I like that. The Inventors will stay in.
LegoDad Posted May 13, 2013 Posted May 13, 2013 [ 1) How many Mafia games have you played here? 1 (my Aperture Schooling) Would love to play more. 2) What's your favorite emoticon to use during Mafia? After Brickington keeps editing posts 3) Is there anything you would change about this design? Does one side seem under powered? Why? Pretty new to Mafia, so I can roll with any rules available. I'm malleable like that.
def Posted May 13, 2013 Posted May 13, 2013 1) You're in! 3) Tell me what you think of the changes! 1) Yay! 3) I honestly don't understand what has changed. I like inventor roles, especially if they are done better than I did in BB II. But a lot of the mechanics are sill over my head. I'm going to take a nap (wait, we're not in game, so I can go to bed, right?) and some time tomorrow I'll give feedback if I have any to give.
Hinckley Posted May 13, 2013 Posted May 13, 2013 I like that you're trimming the fat, so to speak. Thanks for taking my feedback into consideration. I think the more you simplify the better off you'll be and it looks like you're thinking along those lines. The most important thing you can do as a host is take your exciting and innovative concept and make sure there's a clear balance to it. Make sure that it works in the basic Mafia confines of players realistically finding an informed minority and that everyone has a clear win condition that a random modifier won't greatly interfere with. The motivator does indeed make things a little funky. However (and this answers one of your questions) with the exception of a GOD PILL, if the player who had the pill is lynched or killed during the night, the pill will be removed from the game. That makes it less likely that there will be a motivator often. There is also a good chance that a vanilla will get one of the pills early on. I'll invoke def again, "Balance not randomness!" I'm wary of mechanics that "have a good chance" or "are less likely". If there's a chance it can happen, it oftentimes does and you have to prepare your game as if it does. Imagine the motivator pill going to the SK on Night One, the Scum killer on Night Two and then on Night Three the vig and SK get one. It'll happen now that I've said it. Don't set something up in your game that can make the balance swing violently like that. Are the Actions required? Are both Actions required if the player gets the Motivator pill? Knowing that the town has to choose between investigating and protecting means that the vanillas will really be forced to think. How is that? I don't understand your train of though there.
Zepher Posted May 13, 2013 Author Posted May 13, 2013 The JOAT must pick either an investigation OR a protection. I find that often times Vanilla Townies sit around and say "hm, I wonder when investigations will come in". This way, they won't be waiting for that. The killers are UNLIKELY to get all of that, but even so, maybe a protector will get to work twice in one night. Likewise, the Life Savers will prevent that possibility. On top of that, there are 3 bulletproof players. So even in the event of 5 kills in one night, there will also be 5 players who can't be killed a night. It is, of course, equally likely that one of the killers will accidentally pick a downer pill. I understand your critiques. I'm still thinking about the motivation pills very seriously.
Peanuts Posted May 13, 2013 Posted May 13, 2013 Wow, what a nice complicated game...best of luck to everyone participating! Unfortunately I won't have the time to play, my university's exams will fall in the game's time frame, and I figure I will be too distracted to genuinely take part in the game. I'll do my best to follow it, though, I'm curious to see how it will turn out
Bob Posted May 13, 2013 Posted May 13, 2013 1) How many Mafia games have you played here? - Like, 20 I think. I don't know. 2) What's your favorite emoticon to use during Mafia? - Either or 3) Is there anything you would change about this design? Does one side seem under powered? Why? -Going to have to agree with trimming down the sides. I took what Hinckley said to heart after The Pearl when he stated that people really want "less" in their mafia games and just want to have a good old fashioned one.
fhomess Posted May 13, 2013 Posted May 13, 2013 1) How many Mafia games have you played here? 8 2) What's your favorite emoticon to use during Mafia? 3) Is there anything you would change about this design? Does one side seem under powered? Why? There's really two ways to go about dealing with the issue of vanilla's waiting for an investigation result. You can give out more roles, so that someone is bound to have some sort of night action result to go on. Or you can give out very few roles, so that there's very little to go off of and vote/post analysis is the primary scum hunting method. It's clear that this game intends to be more of the former. That said, I expect it to be a swingy game dependent on some key night action combinations that favor one side or the other. It's hard to say if one side is over or under powered in such a game, because it'll depend on player choices with their night actions.
Rufus Posted May 13, 2013 Posted May 13, 2013 It's been a little while, and it seems it's my turn to play. 1) How many Mafia games have you played here? Nine, and hosted one. 2) What's your favorite emoticon to use during Mafia? Unless I'm playing Cameron Crocodile: 3) Is there anything you would change about this design? Does one side seem under powered? Why? Scum seem a little over-powered to me. I'd ditch the inventors, and give Town separate investigator and protector roles. The scum inventor is way more powerful than the town one, just because the scum one knows who to give inventions to.
Kadabra Posted May 13, 2013 Posted May 13, 2013 1. 3, including school. 2. or , depending on my snarky levels for the day. 3. I like the inventors being able to pass actions on to vanillas or goons, but it seems like the scum has an advantage (there is no chance for them to pass an invention on to Town or SK, but town might pass on to Scum or SK). The pills seem very swingy, in my opinion, as if vanillas or goons get god, motivator, or lifesaver and are killed very early, then they will have no effect on the game (and with the lifesavers being able to disappear or get taken by scum, the town only having half of a protector suddenly seems underpowered). However, if Town PRs keep getting motivators or lifesavers, then the scum have little chance of winning, but if Scum PRs get motivators and can kill twice a night in addition to a SK on the loose the game will end very quickly, and not in Town's favor. Do you have a plan to eliminate the swing, or do you just hope for the pills to get spread evenly across the teams by chance? Anyway, I'm still very nooby, so I'll trust your judgement on this one. I will win, someday. I will. Trust me.
Hinckley Posted May 13, 2013 Posted May 13, 2013 Scum might try to pass inventions onto the Town to curry favor or start a fake Town block...
Kadabra Posted May 13, 2013 Posted May 13, 2013 Scum might try to pass inventions onto the Town to curry favor or start a fake Town block... And this is why you shouldn't listen to me. I hadn't thought of that, good point.
Adam Posted May 14, 2013 Posted May 14, 2013 1. No less than six, but no more than eleven. 2. I haven't used emoticons since the great fire, but if I had to choose one, it would be . 3. I trust you Zepher, so I wouldn't change a thing.
Clanure Posted May 14, 2013 Posted May 14, 2013 1. 2, so far. 2. Not a huge emoticon user, but I do think this one has a lot of uses. 3. Pretty new to the Mafia scene, but I'm having a blast and this looks like another great opportunity to hone my skills and learn a lot. I'll defer to those with a lot more experience on the mechanics of the game but I hope to learn from them.
Scouty Posted May 14, 2013 Posted May 14, 2013 Well, this looks interesting. I wont be able to play, but wish everybody the best, I'll be watching on the sidelines
Dannylonglegs Posted May 14, 2013 Posted May 14, 2013 I would love to play this, but I think I will skip one more game before playing again. ~Insectoid Aristicrat
jimmynick Posted May 14, 2013 Posted May 14, 2013 One. Looks interesting. I'll let you have your fun.
Waterbrick Down Posted May 14, 2013 Posted May 14, 2013 (edited) Alright, finally had an opportunity to go through everything and here's my thoughts: The current version is much better than the 1st one as there was just way much going on. My only concern is what happens in the extreme idealistic cases for both town or scum, even though they are not probable, you need to consider what would happen should the scum and SK both get motivators and the inventors created guns the night before and they all the kills townies, including the town's vig. That's 7 town kills in one night! Now of course this is all extremely highly unlikely due to the existence of so many blockers and protectors as well, but still the chance exists. It's all due to the number of variables that exist, the more you add the more easily a game can turn in a single night. Now not to say that this that type of game has a bad setup, I just do not prefer it myself. As far as fixes, I'd perhaps suggest losing the pill cart, it's an additional mechanic that makes the game more complex without really adding anything unique. As an open game, do we get to know the SK objective? Edited May 14, 2013 by Waterbrick Down
CorneliusMurdock Posted May 16, 2013 Posted May 16, 2013 Between an embarrassing illness that doesn't want to go away, moving in a week, preparing for Brickworld, and keeping an eye on the kids, I've got nothing left for mafia. I'd really love to play, Zepher, but I just can't. Sorry.
Zepher Posted May 16, 2013 Author Posted May 16, 2013 To all those who can't play - understandable!! It's just as good to be smart and say you can't play if you won't have the time. For those of you who still want to play but haven't signed up yet - sign ups will END ON THE 22ND! PMs should go out that same day, and the game should hopefully begin the following day! Scum seem a little over-powered to me. I'd ditch the inventors, and give Town separate investigator and protector roles. The scum inventor is way more powerful than the town one, just because the scum one knows who to give inventions to. TO BALANCE: The ability to invent a magnifying glass (investigation action) has been added to the inventor's skill set. As an open game, do we get to know the SK objective? Absolutely. He will be trying to survive until there is one town, one scum OR, alternatively, until all enemies are dead. ON THE SUBJECT OF PILLS: The pill numbers will remain as they are. I understand the concerns, but I think we will be alright. If you think it will be UNBALANCED, and do not wish to play with the current set up, you are free to withdraw your name! Not trying to be a sour puss, but warning you ahead of time that this set-up is BASICALLY locked, so if you genuinely believe you will not have fun in it, I don't want to force you to play! Now would be a good time to ask any and all questions.
Walter Kovacs Posted May 16, 2013 Posted May 16, 2013 Scum might try to pass inventions onto the Town to curry favor or start a fake Town block... So if Hinckley passes you an invention, he's clearly scum. He said so right here.
Hinckley Posted May 16, 2013 Posted May 16, 2013 So if Hinckley passes you an invention, he's clearly scum. He said so right here. Yes, clearly. Just lynch me now.
Zepher Posted May 19, 2013 Author Posted May 19, 2013 We're still short a few players, and have 3 days left in the sign-ups!
TrumpetKing Posted May 20, 2013 Posted May 20, 2013 Twatty can play if it comes to it! There won't be too many inflammatory diseases in this game, will there? I don't want poor Twatty getting overlysexuallyactiveitis....
LegoDad Posted May 20, 2013 Posted May 20, 2013 Twatty can play if it comes to it! There won't be too many inflammatory diseases in this game, will there? I don't want poor Twatty getting overlysexuallyactiveitis.... Yeah, that part of the game I found weird. Frisky Fabuland animals was freaking me out. I'm sure Hinckley was laughing his megablocks off though.
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