Star Wars Rebels

[Faefrost]

As brought up earlier in here, Rebels needs to show the Rebels having their butts handed to them by the Empire and Vader. It would be cool to see some episodes where the Rebels are racing with Vader to find Jedi that survived Order 66. Of course Vader will always get there before them and the Rebels will find dead Jedi. I want to see the Rebels have heavy losses.

One of the weird dichotomy s of The Clone Wars series is it always showed the heroic victories of the individual Jedi or main characters, but if you actually watch the show with an eye towards the broader war, it is apparent that the Republic was having their butts handed to them throughout. Heck in the opening of Episode III Dooku's Confederacy has launched an all out assault on the Republic Capital and has captured the Chancellor. Not typically the attack plan of the losing side. I kind of hope the new show does a better job at communicating just how bad things are for the heroes.

[The Legonater]

As brought up earlier in here, Rebels needs to show the Rebels having their butts handed to them by the Empire and Vader. It would be cool to see some episodes where the Rebels are racing with Vader to find Jedi that survived Order 66. Of course Vader will always get there before them and the Rebels will find dead Jedi. I want to see the Rebels have heavy losses.

I agree. The Battle of Yavin was the Rebel's first full-scale victory, the one that 'put-them-on the map' of threats to the Empire, and even then they received heavy losses. The series in general should gave less a focus on galactic battles and more on cloak-and-dagger kind of action.

As for TFU, it is a very recent addition, and a stronger piece of canon in the writer's minds - I think of anything TFU will be used somehow. Like Doc, I really hope that some of the early-Alliance members like Bel Iblis, especially as - unlike the Republic TCW - the Alliance was a pretty small organization, and thus should draw on the existing members.

[BrickG]

One thing Clone Wars sucked at was making the scale of the war apparent. We always saw tiny little battles, often with just singular teams of people. A whole planet could seemingly be conquered by taking over ONE city with a ragtag group of people. There was zero sense of scale. Planets were literally summed up by a single often village sized area that was in conflict. Whatever happened there happened everywhere. Even on planets that had huge cities and were obviously not just small colonies on a huge planet. :/

I mean these are PLANETS. You could theoretically have a TV show happen entirely on one of them but they're summed up in one 10 minute battle between fewer people than live on my street.

Edited May 28, 2013 by BrickG

[Fives]

While people complain about all of this 'scale of the war' stuff in the Clone Wars, we can't forget that Palpatine was orchestrating EVERYTHING from behind closed doors. He would have likely been privy to all the large scale things, and have the strongest influence on both sides. That's why the Battle of Coruscant happened. He let it happen.

With this new show, however, things are different. With Palpatine no longer in control of both sides, we could show how, even for the most powerful Sith Lord of his time, he is vulnerable. They need to show how the Rebels are able to sneak past Palpatine's traps and plans and almost succeed, but never actually win.

I also feel like during the Dark Times, the Rebels were not a big enough organization to be any sort of military threat to the Empire. So, this show will likely have less of a focus on any sort of war, and more of a focus on small attempts the Rebels make to gain a foothold in the galaxy, and slowly grow to a point where they could possibly challenge the Empire head on.

[Fives]

According to IMDB, Tim Curry is rumored to be the voice of Palpatine. That's interesting.

[jmagaletta]

I found this article. I agree with most of the list besides 10 and 11.http://www.geekexchange.com/11-hopes-for-star-wars-rebels-animated-series-62901.html

[BrickG]

I actually like 10. Giving Leia more back story, if done right, could potentially be awesome. She's realistically the only one that wouldn't have to be FORCED into the story (you could stick Han and Chewie somewhere if they didn't meet her I guess). If it's closer to A New Hope than Revenge of the Sith you could literally over the course of several seasons show her grow up and age and eventually even end the series right before the Tantive IV is taken. I think the potential for that is pretty awesome.

Now it would be hard to work that around other possibilities like Ashoka returning but not impossible. As someone who doesn't care if they ignore EU I wouldn't mind Leia meeting Ashoka even!

[Fives]

I think I've come up with something that could be a very interesting story in this new show, if Ahsoka is in it.

One of the problems with the CW show was that it didn't follow a chronological storyline, but rather was an anthology. I really hope this new show follows a continuous story, albeit jumping around the galaxy from one subplot to the other. That way, the show can have genuine cliff hangers and decent plot and character development that can be easily tracked from beginning to end.

If this were to be the case, I would love for Ahsoka to be reunited with both Yoda and Anakin. I would like if she never found out about Anakin becoming Vader, and discovering the truth from Yoda. She could somehow get stranded on Dagobah, and there could be a four episode arc. She could spend the first episode wandering the swamps, having visions of Vader committing atrocities towards the Jedi. The next episode she meets up with Yoda, and spends time reconnecting with him and learning of all the horrible things that took place in ROTS. While this happens, it can cut to scenes of Vader being sent out by Palpatine to hunt down Rebels. The third episode could then cover Ahsoka's 'trials', with her entering the cave and confronting her visions of Anakin/Vader. She leaves the cave having a feeling that Vader is Anakin, something Yoda confirms. The fourth and last episode (perhaps a season finale) has Ahsoka fixing her ship and leaving Dagobah to find Vader. While this happens, Vader is near the Dagobah system, sensing a strong Force precence on the planet. Before he reaches the world, he confronts Ahsoka's ship and locks it in the tractor beam of the Executor. Ahsoka, knowing she has been found by Vader, lets herself get captured. Vader has lost most of his memory of Ahsoka, and does not recognize her. The episode ends with Vader blasting off into hyperspace back towards Coruscant to give Palpatine his prize.

Another really cool thing the could do would be develop Leia's rise into politics, her relationship with Tarkin, and she could meet Ahsoka before Ahsoka meets Yoda.

[Brickdoctor]

Even if I weren't someone who doesn't really like CW/PT, I think I would still hope that Ahsoka would not return. I'm not a TCW fan and definitely not an Ahsoka fan, and I still think she got a well-done, emotional, dramatic ending that was the best of the concluding episodes to a TCW season. It was like Assaj Ventress' original ending: just disappears into who-knows-where. I know some people want to know what happens next, but sometimes you already have a good ending that works even if it leaves a question or two unanswered, and you've just got to leave it alone. Don't mess with the OT storyline too much, don't make things more complicated; you made a character specifically for the role of prominent apprentice in a CW-era show, she finished that role, you gave her a great last appearance - time to move on.

[Fives]

Even if I weren't someone who doesn't really like CW/PT, I think I would still hope that Ahsoka would not return. I'm not a TCW fan and definitely not an Ahsoka fan, and I still think she got a well-done, emotional, dramatic ending that was the best of the concluding episodes to a TCW season. It was like Assaj Ventress' original ending: just disappears into who-knows-where. I know some people want to know what happens next, but sometimes you already have a good ending that works even if it leaves a question or two unanswered, and you've just got to leave it alone. Don't mess with the OT storyline too much, don't make things more complicated; you made a character specifically for the role of prominent apprentice in a CW-era show, she finished that role, you gave her a great last appearance - time to move on.

As much as they did end her story decently, I feel like Ahsoka has a lot more to do before the Civil War starts, both with helping the Rebels in some way and in growing as a character. Ahsoka is by far my favourite female character in the Star Wars universe because of the fact that she not only noticeably grew as a person and Jedi across the CW seasons, but also became very close to Anakin. I think that they can't ignore someone who had such a profound influence on Anakin's life, and who Anakin also influenced a lot. I think it would be a great thing to see Ahsoka emerge from the shadows of wherever she has been during the Dark Times, only to learn that her former master has become the monster that brought everything to ruin. And also for her to try but fail to bring Anakin back from the dark side, and ultimately perish in her efforts.

As much as its kinda heavy, someone with such a strong connection to a younger Anakin must have a tragic end to their story.

[Brickdoctor]

She did have a tragic end. She decided to leave the Jedi order. And yes, that can be an end to a character. Like I said: just like Assaj Ventress decided to just disappear.

Besides, it's a major part of the story that the female characters close to Anakin died prior to his falling to the Dark Side and he couldn't save them. This ending made sense. Just as he couldn't prevent Shmi or Padme from dying, he couldn't convince Ahsoka not to leave the order. So she disappears, in an ending that satisfies both the OT fans who didn't want her to be retconned into later productions and the CW fans who didn't want her to be killed off.

[jmagaletta]

Do not get me wrong I am not an Ashoka fan. But I still would like to know what happened to her during Order 66, would she have been hunted or ignored?

[Fives]

Do not get me wrong I am not an Ashoka fan. But I still would like to know what happened to her during Order 66, would she have been hunted or ignored?

My theory is that because she left the order, Anakin may have decided to forget about her during Order 66. She (obviously) wasn't around, and wasn't any sort of threat. She wasn't even a knight for a while. There were plenty of other, more powerful Jedi Vader needed to go after. He probably just completely ignored that part of his life.

That's why I think it would be interesting to bring her back, now older and more experienced due to having to dodge and fight her way out of Imperial entanglements. She could start having these visions, melding Anakin and Vader together, perhaps even dreams where Vader slaughters Anakin, because she wouldn't know Vader is Anakin. Eventually she would learn the truth (as I said above, perhaps from Yoda after trials similar to Luke's), and then hunting down Vader in an attempt to remind him of who he was, and ultimately being killed by Vader.

And the whole Ventress thing is fine. She didn't have as big an impact on Anakin, and Anakin is the pivotal character of the Star Wars story, so characters who are extremely close to him should have more of a conclusive end.

[Brickdoctor]

Ventress had a huge impact on Anakin. She was the rival enemy, the character drawn from unused concept art and fleshed out to fill the exact same powerful apprentice role, just for the other side.

[Fives]

Ventress had a huge impact on Anakin. She was the rival enemy, the character drawn from unused concept art and fleshed out to fill the exact same powerful apprentice role, just for the other side.

I suppose so. But, like Anakin was for Obi-Wan, Ahsoka was close to Anakin on a more family-like level. And it seems that all of Anakin's family end up dead because of him or his actions. Shmi's death started Anakin's paranoia about losing family and those closest to him, and in the end his search for a way to stop it caused his life to end. After Padme died, he gave himself fully over the the Dark Side. He did kill Obi-Wan, who was a father to him in a way. Why could he not kill Ahsoka, who was like a daughter to him? I just don't like the idea of Ahsoka having gotten so close to Anakin and then just disappear. She has to come back into his life, shake his life up a bit, but then send him even further into the depths of the Dark Side.

This Ahsoka debate is kinda pointless. Sorry for getting so off topic. Lets get this discussion back on course (although, there currently isn't really anything to discuss).

Edited June 8, 2013 by Fives

[Brickdoctor]

It's not off-topic. We're discussing the appearance of a character in the Rebels series, and we're doing it in the thread about said Rebels series.

I'm not saying that it would be completely nonsensical for Ahsoka to come back. It would sort of parallel Padme, Obi-Wan, and Luke, as you say, in that Vader would try to convince them of something, fail, and then try to kill them. (Obviously not succeeding/changing his mind in Luke's case.) But I think that there's already a good progression in Vader's storyline, hating Padme, wanting to kill Padme, regretting killing Padme, hating Obi-Wan, wanting to kill Obi-Wan not regretting killing Obi-Wan, not wanting to kill Luke, regretting turning Luke over to the Emperor. Adding Ahsoka to that kind of messes up the "failure, anger, regret, resignation" progression. (Remember that that progression isn't altered by Vader's mission to kill all the other Jedi, because they weren't characters close to him.)

Additionally, my point is that that doesn't have to be the case with all the characters, and that there is already precedent for a character just disappearing the way Ahsoka has (for now). Ahsoka doesn't have to die for Anakin to be unable to save her - he's already failed to convince her of something and already failed to save her in his inability to persuade her to return to the Jedi order. This is the ending that best satisfies everyone, it doesn't make anyone mad by killing her off, and it doesn't make anyone mad by involving her in OT storylines.

My point is also that Ahsoka already has a great conclusion, and I don't want to see that changed by a later conclusion. This is already the best conclusion I can envision for the character that should satisfy the largest group of fans. Just as with Ventress, while there could be more to the story and while it might make some sense to bring her back, it doesn't need to be done. Perhaps this is more in the storytelling sense than the storyline sense*, but the story has already been told. It's done, it ended with a well-done episode, don't mess with it.

*And as vast as the EU is, Star Wars is still a work of fiction and any productions of it need to focus on the best way to tell the story of the Star Wars universe.

[Fives]

I suppose you're right. I would just love to see Ahsoka post-Order 66. She could be a very interesting character. Like, what have the Dark Times turned her into. Would she just be another Ventress? It would be really interesting to see.

Not only that, but other than movie characters, Ahsoka is the only link between the CW show and the Rebels show. I'd really love to see a continuity between Rebels and CW. It would be a shame if Rebels became just another Star Wars animated series, but rather have CW and Rebels feel like the same show, if only visually. That way it feels like we've got CW, then ROTS, then pick it up with Rebels. Two separate shows, one for PT era and one for OT era, linked by one major character who personally affected Anakin who isn't a film character. To me, it works.

I can't help my personal bias seeping into my side of this discussion. I originally didn't like Ahsoka, but as the CW progressed and she grew as a character, she became one of my favourite characters. So I would just love to see more of her, see her meet Vader, and see her have a sad ending.

Now, your point of how Vader has a pattern with his closest family members, and how Luke was the only one who made a real difference, I don't believe Ahsoka would change it, but just add to that trend. It would give a distinguishable event in Vader's life during the Dark Times. Padme tried to convince him to come back from the Sith, his hubris killed her. Obi-Wan tried to turn him/kill him, but his love for the Anakin he knew stopped him from killing him, which inevitably bit him in the butt. Luke was the only one who could get through to Anakin because he was A) directly his flesh and blood, and B) directly threatened by Sidious while Vader stood there. It was the Emperor who drove Vader to the point of seeing the error of his ways. He realized that Sidious was willing to give Vader up just to keep himself from being defeated. He saw how Luke was genuinely trying to make him see this, but it never got through to him until he realized how powerless he was in comparison to Sidious.

So, I believe that Ahsoka would try to get through to Anakin, but only meet a power hungry Vader, who maybe remembers her, but doesn't believe her in her attempts to get to him. She could then try to fight her way through to him, but be bested in the duel, and killed by Vader because he stills feels like the all powerful Chosen One.

This may have become a slight rant and lack some structure, but I've just got so many thoughts that I'm having a tough time keeping track of them.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Fives

[Brickdoctor]

I understand that people liked the TCW show and they want to see more of that in Rebels. But I don't think there needs to be a link as you describe it, uniting the two shows in their non-film-but-related-to-Vader-ness. They're still separate shows with (what I think should be) separate and different stories to tell, and they already have the big, overarching link in that they'll have Vader as what I assume will be a major character. (The two eras both being parts of Vader's story, after all.)

As for that pattern I mentioned, my point is that there's one character per major progression in Anakin/Vader's outlook. I suppose you could say that it doesn't have to be that way, that it doesn't have to be a smooth or predictable pattern, but it doesn't seem to benefit the story (which at this point is still primarily the story of Vader) that much to bring Ahsoka back, the major character that she's become, and then to have her just mirror something Vader did to someone else. Like I said before: she filled her role, she's already figured into Anakin's failures, she's already majorly affected Anakin, and she's already gotten a great conclusion - I think she went out in a great episode, and I think it's time to move on from her story. I'm not an Ahsoka fan, nevertheless I don't want to see any character in Star Wars get a bad conclusion or storyline, nor do I want them to mess up what has already been established in the storylines of other characters. I don't want to see Ahsoka's already excellent conclusion made less so by a continuing storyline, and most of all I don't want her future storyline to create anything even more messy or unnecessary in the storyline of other characters when her role doesn't need to be extended.

[BrickG]

I'm one of the people who are bothered by "excellent conclusions" that aren't really conclusions. I don't care how awesome it was. She's still alive. She's got more story. She probably wouldn't stay out of it when she finds out most of the Jedi were killed. Ending on a high note is one thing. Ending when there's so much more you can logically do is yet another. But I'm one of those people who hate movies that freakin' end out of nowhere (like many indie movies :P). Her ending was good but IMO it wasn't a real conclusion because she's still out there, the threats if anything get WORSE and the story continues without her. Logically I would think her character would get involved, jedi or not.

(and I must stress how much I hate non-ending endings :P)

[Brickdoctor]

the story continues without her.

Sorry, I just had to pick this out of your post. That's exactly the point: the story continues on without her, and it already makes sense.

Believe me, I understand the desire to know what happens later. I just think that this is a good place to end the story and leave the future of the character unknown, since there is already a future that doesn't involve the character.

[Fives]

I'm one of the people who are bothered by "excellent conclusions" that aren't really conclusions. I don't care how awesome it was. She's still alive. She's got more story. She probably wouldn't stay out of it when she finds out most of the Jedi were killed. Ending on a high note is one thing. Ending when there's so much more you can logically do is yet another. But I'm one of those people who hate movies that freakin' end out of nowhere (like many indie movies :P). Her ending was good but IMO it wasn't a real conclusion because she's still out there, the threats if anything get WORSE and the story continues without her. Logically I would think her character would get involved, jedi or not.

(and I must stress how much I hate non-ending endings :P)

I agree. Her conclusion was too open ended. And I also believe that when after Order 66 and the creation of the Empire, Ahsoka would start looking for her friends who possibly survived, such as Obi-Wan, Anakin and Padme.

I also think that if she gets any role in Rebels, it shouldn't be a main role. It would be interesting if she popped up here and there, bumping into Leia or Han and Chewie or whatever, and then at the end of the second last season, gets a major focus for a few episodes, expanding on her short cameos and what she has really been dealing with during this period of time. The season ends with her being captured by Vader, and the next season begins with her death, which could be a major instigator in what could be the last season leading up to the Rebels stealing the Death Star plans.

Also, she could logically get Yoda to appear in the show. It would be neat if they briefly explored Yoda's life on Dagobah before Luke got there.

She could act as this last remnant of the old ways of the Jedi, and her death could signify the absolute fact that the Emoire will not be stopped unless drastic measures are taken, thus leading to the Battle of Yavin.

[Brickdoctor]

I also think that if she gets any role in Rebels, it shouldn't be a main role. It would be interesting if she popped up here and there, bumping into Leia or Han and Chewie or whatever, and then at the end of the second last season, gets a major focus for a few episodes, expanding on her short cameos and what she has really been dealing with during this period of time. The season ends with her being captured by Vader, and the next season begins with her death, which could be a major instigator in what could be the last season leading up to the Rebels stealing the Death Star plans.

Also, she could logically get Yoda to appear in the show. It would be neat if they briefly explored Yoda's life on Dagobah before Luke got there.

She could act as this last remnant of the old ways of the Jedi, and her death could signify the absolute fact that the Emoire will not be stopped unless drastic measures are taken, thus leading to the Battle of Yavin.

But even if that wasn't a main role, it would still be a role that was already filled. The reason and the method by which the Rebels stole the Death Star plans? Explored. (And really, why does there need to be a reason? It's a planet-destroying superweapon that your enemy is building; you'd be a fool not to know that you needed to try to find a weakness before it was too late.) Getting Yoda to appear? He's in exile, knowing that his fighting days are over, waiting to pass on his knowledge to the next generation. He's not supposed to appear. Joining up with other Jedi? A major point of the Dark Times is that the resistance is scattered and what few Jedi are left are slowly picked off one by one. (And we don't need a character to get resistance together because we already have Mon Mothma and Starkiller and Garm Bel Iblis and Bail Organa for that.) Signifying how powerful the Empire is? The Rebels already know that. The Empire just wiped out the Jedi and the Rebels are lead by people who were already forming resistance before the Empire was created; they already know what they need to do and what they're up against. Last of the old Jedi? Already Obi-Wan and Yoda.

[BrickG]

nope nope nope she's just plain got so much more potential story. We're not going to agree on this so it's useless to debate it further :P.

(P.S. I'm rite ur rong!)

[Brickdoctor]

Very well. (But I would like to say that I do think she has potential for a future story - but that this is neither the right way nor the right medium in which to explore that storyline. A comic book, a short novel series, or even a short series of TV episodes, I think those could work, but only if they didn't affect the storylines of the main OT characters and if it isn't such a high-profile production as to make her seem like a main character again.)

[The_Chosen_1]

^ Agree with you, Brickdoctor. Particularly with that very last sentence.

It's a funny thing reading this and other Star Wars forums and hearing fans' reactions to how Ahsoka's arc was wrapped up in The Clone Wars. It strikes me that a lot of fans will never be satisfied with a character's story arc until they know exactly what happens to them up until the very moment the character dies. I'm of the opinion that we don't necessarily need that with Ahsoka. There's nothing wrong with using our imaginations to dream up what she does next...that element of the "unknown" is something that Star Wars has been missing lately, IMO.