Fixing a 9v Lego train motor with a PF lego motor

[Lazarus]

Hello All.

Been meaning to do this conversion for a while, so managed to get around to getting some PF motors off brick link and started converting. I was going to do it with pics bought i though i would give a videos ago, so check out my link to youtube and comment on what you think.

So far i have fixed 4 of my fault 9v motors this way and they are running well.

There will be a few videos i am going though and editing but they will be all linked to the below link

thanks

Matthew

Video 01

Video 02

Video 03

Video 04

Video 05

Edited June 18, 2013 by Lazarus

[Lazarus]

Video 06

Playlist

Edited June 18, 2013 by Lazarus

[kieran]

Nice set of videos, thanks for sharing. Have you performed any side by side tests of the finished unit against both and unmodified 9V and PF motor, just interested how the finished unit works.

[fred67]

Nicely done, Lazarus... I have a handful of 9v motors, luckily none have died on me. I intend to keep 9V alive - whether it's "hacks" like these, ME models or Big Ben tracks (or something else, like copper covering or modified O gauge), whatever it takes. Knowing I can keep these motors going is nice relief.

My only suggestion: get a tripod.

[Lazarus]

HAHA in saying that i have a tripod. I was out of it yesterday after converting 4 of these in a row so did not think.

Thanks for the comments.

As for the PF vs 9v.

First i think the PF internal motor will run better due to constant power. And from my small bit of testing i have done with load and with out, it really does look like it out does a 9v. I have one more PF motor on the way what i could test vs a converted one before i gut it. Also more pro this this the pf cable off this motor can join to that of a PF motor and power it with out batter packs.

This page it good it says the PF motor has the best performance over all motors so more pros to this you will get more pulling power.

http://www.philohome...s/motorcomp.htm

Edited June 18, 2013 by Lazarus

[zephyr1934]

Yeah, so you can bring a 9v motor back to life with one hand tied behind your back, let's see you do it blind folded. Seriously though, very impressive work and it is fantastic that you took the time to share all of the details. Thank you for taking the time to make these videos and for sharing them.

After watching the videos I have a few comments,

1) I suspect that it is likely that the pf cable exiting the shell would interfere with a 9v cable on the metal contacts (unless the 9v cable only connected to the outer two contacts, overhanging the end of the motor by one stud). If so, then it is likely that one would have to choose between 9v or PF power output from the top of the motor (i.e., include the PF as you did and don't use 9v, or don't include the PF output and use the 9v contacts).

2) if one does use the PF output to power a second, unmodified PF motor, directional LEDs or similar, then care should be taken to ensure the proper polarity on the output (or risk the need for using a PF pole reverser).

3) just a caution to those watching at home. At some future date Lego might change the subcomponents of the PF train motor, in which case, the viewer may need to modify your process accordingly.

[Lazarus]

1) I suspect that it is likely that the pf cable exiting the shell would interfere with a 9v cable on the metal contacts (unless the 9v cable only connected to the outer two contacts, overhanging the end of the motor by one stud). If so, then it is likely that one would have to choose between 9v or PF power output from the top of the motor (i.e., include the PF as you did and don't use 9v, or don't include the PF output and use the 9v contacts).

you could always cut down the 9v connector a little to give space to the brick on the 9v cable. I only us pf light due to them being brighter so this works best for my, also you dont need to do the cable mod.

2) if one does use the PF output to power a second, unmodified PF motor, directional LEDs or similar, then care should be taken to ensure the proper polarity on the output (or risk the need for using a PF pole reverser).

yes unless you run like the horizon and want to run two motors in the front. and some other locos that benefit from two motors in the same loco. but this way you can get a 2nd motor for $10 us instead of using more expensive and hard to find 9v motors.

3) just a caution to those watching at home. At some future date Lego might change the subcomponents of the PF train motor, in which case, the viewer may need to modify your process accordingly.

Agreed but these new motors where dated 2005 haha. But from the looks of 20 years of lego trains the motor internals have changed very little.

[hoeij]

This is great stuff! It means I can:

a) sell some of my spare MISB 9V motors

b) I don't have to worry that I'll ever run out of 9V motors, because, if one breaks, it can be repaired cheaply,

c) and best of all: the repaired one will be stronger than a brand new 9V motor!

PS. Check out my layout at our local train show:

[Lazarus]

Nice layout, if you check out my other play lists on youtube. Our club layout is on there also we just had our show and i ended up killing 4 motors hence the real need to try and fix something for cheap.

Ya the pf motor does perform better than the old 9v so i was thinking of doing this mod on all my 9v motor just to increase the power.

Also the motor in the video above i found another old good 9v gear that i replaced with the pf gear and it runs like a 9v again less noise. Some how i think the PF gear has a very very slight difference i can see by eye that makes them louder but still run fine.

[zephyr1934]

1) I suspect that it is likely that the pf cable exiting the shell would interfere with a 9v cable on the metal contacts (unless the 9v cable only connected to the outer two contacts, overhanging the end of the motor by one stud). If so, then it is likely that one would have to choose between 9v or PF power output from the top of the motor (i.e., include the PF as you did and don't use 9v, or don't include the PF output and use the 9v contacts).

you could always cut down the 9v connector a little to give space to the brick on the 9v cable. I only us pf light due to them being brighter so this works best for my, also you dont need to do the cable mod.

2) if one does use the PF output to power a second, unmodified PF motor, directional LEDs or similar, then care should be taken to ensure the proper polarity on the output (or risk the need for using a PF pole reverser).

yes unless you run like the horizon and want to run two motors in the front. and some other locos that benefit from two motors in the same loco. but this way you can get a 2nd motor for $10 us instead of using more expensive and hard to find 9v motors.

3) just a caution to those watching at home. At some future date Lego might change the subcomponents of the PF train motor, in which case, the viewer may need to modify your process accordingly.

Agreed but these new motors where dated 2005 haha. But from the looks of 20 years of lego trains the motor internals have changed very little.

Oh, apologies if these were taken the wrong way, none of my points were meant to be criticism. I thought your project was fantastic. Rather, after studying your videos these thoughts hit me and I thought they would be useful footnotes for someone who has not attempted such things before.

As for the third point, I think lego is doing more outsourcing these days. The RC/PF motor wheels have had at least three different bands on them. Even the old 9v wall warts have at least two different cords. So I could see lego switching vendors at some point and potentially reworking the PF motor internal design in the process. I have no knowledge of anything like that, but the pessimist in me naturally assumes that right after we find a solution lego will move the cheese.

[hoeij]

Nice layout, if you check out my other play lists on youtube. Our club layout is on there also we just had our show and i ended up killing 4 motors hence the real need to try and fix something for cheap.

Lazarus,

When you have trains with more than one 9V motor, you have to watch them carefully. If one motor is failing, then the other one has to do way more work. So if one motor fails, there is a big chance that the other one will break too. To avoid this, you have to watch the multi-motor trains carefully, if one of them starts to go slower, at the same speed setting, you may be damaging motors.

[UrbanErwin]

This might be is very useful. I will definitely use if a motor breaks.

[Lazarus]

I got more PF motors the other day and tested out the 1 9v + standard PF motor and it works ace. This is going to save me a lot of cash and i spread my 9vs across all my locos, i think with this new mod i just need to buy 2 more 9v to have all my locos powered and wont need to play swap a motor at shows.

Also found the performance is outstanding compared to two standard 9v, a loco with dual motors now can pull easier and at lower Volts on the controller what reduces stress on the motors.

One thing that was commented on above also. I did need to rewire the pf cable and switch the polarities around on the cable in the 9V motor so the normal PF motor would run in the same direction. No big deal took longer for my Iron to warm up than switch two wires around.

Will do a video 2moro been stuck at work all weekend.

[hoeij]

I got more PF motors the other day and tested out the 1 9v + standard PF motor and it works ace.

Having just 1 9V motor per train (assisted by additional PF motors) is a great idea.

It is risky to have multiple 9V-motors in one train, because if one motor fails, the load on the other one increases, and you're likely to break that one too (the first time I broke a 9V motor, I broke two motors because of this. Never again).

In your new setup, one 9V per train, your 9V motor should be much safer now (the PF motors are stronger, reducing the load on your 9V motor, so (check that to make sure) it should not get too warm anymore).

Making cuts to the wheel sets to reduce friction (see railbricks #2) is also a very good way to avoid breaking motors.

Note: At a lower speed setting, your motor is NOT safer than at a higher speed setting. Amps matter far more than Volts. Amps are directly proportional to the amount of force that is needed to move the train (which is proportional to its weight).

[Lazarus]

With the new conversion as above the (fixed/upgraded) 9v motor with PF internal motor has all the same pros and the PF so i see them lasting a very long time. Also having the Heat cut out still in both motors will help also.

In regards to the speed regulator needing lew volts/amps to move the train. I was meaning, when i run the same loco with the same load with two standard 9v motors i had to run more volts and amp though it to get the same performance as i do now with the new PF gear.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Lazarus

[hoeij]

In regards to the speed regulator needing lew volts/amps to move the train. I was meaning, when i run the same loco with the same load with two standard 9v motors i had to run more volts and amp though it to get the same performance as i do now with the new PF gear.

This means that:

(a) the PF motors are better than the 9V motors, and

(b) the load on your 9V motor is now lower than it was before; so it should last much longer.

I think that in this setup, your motors will last a very long time.

[legoman666]

My LUG has a different way to recycle failed 9v motors: pull the motor out of the 9v assembly and solder in the leads for the charger of the rechargeable PF battery pack. Use it on 9V tracks with the controller turned all the way up. This way, you can use cheap PF train motors that are pulling power from the rechargeable pack which is being constantly recharged by the 9V rails. It can even go over non powered track sections. It will run forever which makes it great for shows.

[Lazarus]

Apart from having to hide the battery pack in some locos. But good idea.