Heroica RPG Rules & FAQ

[Endgame]

We're assassins, we hit all enemies anyway.

[Scorpiox]

So, that's that. Glad I'm switching to Dragoon soon. *shrug*

Luckily at level 30, I can switch to Winged Warrior.

Why are you both acting as though all your classes are now useless? Rogues can still farm gold, and the classes still keep their individual bonuses that are unique to them.

Just realised how much of a prick I could be by only targeting enemies with gold on them.

Of course you can, but remember that this works both ways. To put it one way: if any rogue tried this in a party I were involved in, they could say goodbye to any hopes of being healed or receiving loot.

[Tachyon]

No worries, my inventory is pretty cookie cutter right now so loots not that important. The flow of the quest and some of my team-mates are more important then gold and loot.

[Scorpiox]

No worries, my inventory is pretty cookie cutter right now so loots not that important. The flow of the quest and some of my team-mates are more important then gold and loot.

I'm not entirely sure as to what you are referring...

[UsernameMDM]

Anyone else a teensy bit annoyed that high defense and counterstrikes gloves have allowed for avoiding the toughest enemies altogether and get automatic wins? I won't avoid saying that Hoke in the Fields of Glory has triggered this realization for me, but he's not the only one. And I certainly don't blame you, MDM, for using a strategy available to you, but doesn't it say something about balance? Just throwing this out there.

No, I love it.

What he said!

[UsernameMDM]

But take note: 5 SP of Hoke's is from a borrow piece of equipment. Hoke has 17 SP of his own items.

[swils]

Just realised how much of a prick I could be by only targeting enemies with gold on them.

It's hardly being a prick. Everyone else (sweeping generalization, sorry) saw to it that your income took a hit because you were making more gold than they were (another generalization). I'm sure that if a Mystic Knight faced an enemy that offered extra chances at Enchant, they'd act similarly. Or a character with any sort of boost from landing the killing blow that attempts to 'steal' the last hit on any given foe. As long as you're not sabotaging your party's successful completion of the battle (eg standing around when theres no goldbearing enemies left) , no one can find real fault with your actions. You're just making the best use of the tools available to you.

Why are you both acting as though all your classes are now useless? Rogues can still farm gold, and the classes still keep their individual bonuses that are unique to them.

Remind me where I said that rogues were now useless? I'm just glad to have a new path opened to me now that didn't just have a rather selfish change applied. That's what it was, really (in my opinion), a selfish change. The fact that a rogue brought it up has no bearing on my opinion, either. The community at large rallied behind the idea of a reduction in effectiveness, with reasoning as weak as "Rogues have been making more gold than the rest of us for a long time" News flash, it's been this way since Day One. It was obvious that rogues would be the class with the most gold. At lower levels, of course, no one seemed to notice because we were all fairly on par. Most people did similar damage and most people could eat a hit almost as well as a Knight. But now, as levels climb, the differences in classes and their strengths become much more evident. Knight-types can tank better than just about anyone because their class options have been accentuated. And now that QMs have to increase the levels of their baddies in order to pose a threat, Rogues' gold gaining has (had) reached staggering new levels (as a result of the previous nerf to their incomes). But rather than being happy for them, rather than asking if perhaps the rogue could split some excess off in order to help cover, even in some little part, everyone else's consumables costs, it was just much easier to call for another nerf.

I detest the sheer solo-ness of that. In the past, rogues have defended their earnings as their own, it's true, but folks just let it be, even though there was obviously some unspoken jealousy. Everyone has costs associated with bringing their best to a party, everyone. Rogues happen to have the unique opportunity to help their fellow Heroicans in that regard. If the knight has an extra SP, the mage an extra elixer, the barbarian/ranger an extra WP, etc.. Everyone in the party benefits. Even if it doesn't benefit you on this quest, it will benefit someone down the line. We all win. But most of the time (there are definitely plenty of exceptions to this), a rogue's gold was seen as theirs to spend and everyone just went along with it. We could have called for a community-wide change in attitude, where rogues are expected to share some gold just as much as a cleric is expected to heal an injured party member (*ahem*, see next quote), but no, it was easier to cry foul and take that away.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if rogues start hoarding their earnings even more than before.

Of course you can, but remember that this works both ways. To put it one way: if any rogue tried this in a party I were involved in, they could say goodbye to any hopes of being healed or receiving loot.

I really, really hope you're joking. I can't tell, but I really do.

Edited July 9, 2013 by swils

[Palathadric]

It's hardly being a prick. Everyone else (sweeping generalization, sorry) saw to it that your income took a hit because you were making more gold than they were (another generalization). I'm sure that if a Mystic Knight faced an enemy that offered extra chances at Enchant, they'd act similarly. Or a character with any sort of boost from landing the killing blow that attempts to 'steal' the last hit on any given foe. As long as you're not sabotaging your party's successful completion of the battle (eg standing around when theres no goldbearing enemies left) , no one can find real fault with your actions. You're just making the best use of the tools available to you.

Knight-types can tank better than just about anyone because their class options have been accentuated. And now that QMs have to increase the levels of their baddies in order to pose a threat, Rogues' gold gaining has (had) reached staggering new levels (as a result of the previous nerf to their incomes). But rather than being happy for them, rather than asking if perhaps the rogue could split some excess off in order to help cover, even in some little part, everyone else's consumables costs, it was just much easier to call for another nerf.

The problem is not whether or not rogues are sharing their gold, etc. It's that rogues are becoming too powerful. As Pandora said Battle Mage should be about the ultimate when it comes to damage dealing, but rogues can now do the same damage as Nyx. So what's the point in having barbarians if rogues are doing just as much if not more damage and reaping great benefits while at it? Knights are different. They have shields, but look at someone like Benji who can have quite a massive amount of SP while being an assassin. I think assassins were meant to be relatively weak fellows with the awesomeness of being able to assassinate enemies, with the amount of gold they have now, though, many assassins are devastatingly effective even when just rolling "aim." When it gets to that stage, I think it's pretty obvious that a nerf is needed.

I really, really hope you're joking. I can't tell, but I really do.

I believe Scorpiox meant that if the rogue were to act against the battle strategy and was harming the party through such an action. You have to remember that people have been very friendly to rogues many times. For example, it's not uncommon that people put rogues higher up in the battle order so that they could farm more gold from their hits.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if rogues start hoarding their earnings even more than before.

Perhaps it's better that way. If rogues keep getting the amount they're getting they could easily start purchasing consumables for the whole party taking over many roles. I don't think the ultimate goal is for every hero to be drugged out on consumables every battle.

[Waterbrick Down]

Remind me where I said that rogues were now useless? I'm just glad to have a new path opened to me now that didn't just have a rather selfish change applied. That's what it was, really (in my opinion), a selfish change. The fact that a rogue brought it up has no bearing on my opinion, either. The community at large rallied behind the idea of a reduction in effectiveness, with reasoning as weak as "Rogues have been making more gold than the rest of us for a long time" News flash, it's been this way since Day One. It was obvious that rogues would be the class with the most gold. At lower levels, of course, no one seemed to notice because we were all fairly on par. Most people did similar damage and most people could eat a hit almost as well as a Knight. But now, as levels climb, the differences in classes and their strengths become much more evident. Knight-types can tank better than just about anyone because their class options have been accentuated. And now that QMs have to increase the levels of their baddies in order to pose a threat, Rogues' gold gaining has (had) reached staggering new levels (as a result of the previous nerf to their incomes). But rather than being happy for them, rather than asking if perhaps the rogue could split some excess off in order to help cover, even in some little part, everyone else's consumables costs, it was just much easier to call for another nerf.

I detest the sheer solo-ness of that. In the past, rogues have defended their earnings as their own, it's true, but folks just let it be, even though there was obviously some unspoken jealousy. Everyone has costs associated with bringing their best to a party, everyone. Rogues happen to have the unique opportunity to help their fellow Heroicans in that regard. If the knight has an extra SP, the mage an extra elixer, the barbarian/ranger an extra WP, etc.. Everyone in the party benefits. Even if it doesn't benefit you on this quest, it will benefit someone down the line. We all win. But most of the time (there are definitely plenty of exceptions to this), a rogue's gold was seen as theirs to spend and everyone just went along with it. We could have called for a community-wide change in attitude, where rogues are expected to share some gold just as much as a cleric is expected to heal an injured party member (*ahem*, see next quote), but no, it was easier to cry foul and take that away.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if rogues start hoarding their earnings even more than before.

If the issue had been a behavioral problem then that would have been addressed, however a flaw in the balance of the game was perceived and that is what we were trying to address. I don't think there was any if at all unspoken jealousy concerning how much gold a rogue was taking in, that is after all their trait, however I'm sure there was plenty of well founded jealousy in rogues taking the place of certain classes. Sure a rogues extra consumables, SP, and WP benefit the party, but it's not their job. For example, I've chosen my class for high damage output. When a rogue comes along with 2x my WP imbued with tons of elements, it somewhat cheapens my enjoyment of being the Party's heavy hitter. Like wise, if someone is playing a cleric because that is what they enjoy and a rogue with tons of consumables joins the party and essentially takes the healer's place, then I can see the healer being rightfully upset. Again the point isn't rogue's behavior or anyone else's, it's game balance.

[CMP]

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if rogues start hoarding their earnings even more than before.

Probably. But their earnings won't be as nearly ridiculous as they were after the consumable strategy came up and before the nerf, which was the problem in the first place. Rogues have been making a hell of a lot more than they were before Mead/Nostrum/Smelling Salts came up. Extra spending money is okay. Enough spending money to make other classes obsolete isn't, no matter how much of it they share.

Edited July 9, 2013 by CallMePie

[Scorpiox]

-snip-

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if rogues start hoarding their earnings even more than before.

I really, really hope you're joking. I can't tell, but I really do.

No, rogues were properly broken. The fact that a hero was able to get a WP roughly twice of everyone else's and still have enough cash to buy artefacts and immunities. It sounds as though you're just bitter, to be honest. If you want to know why this nerf happened, go and re-read this topic from the beginning. Also, what world are you living in where rogues have been known to upgrade people's weapons for them? It has never, ever taken place.

Why would I be joking? My actions would be perfectly justified. If a rogue character is so downright selfish to only fight enemies that can be mugged, therefore putting their desires above those of the party, they do not deserve any loot in my view. The number one goal is and always has been finishing the battle as efficiently as possible. If you think that it's okay to ignore the wishes of the other heroes and simply do what benefits you the most, I doubt that many people will be happy having you in their party at all. There is a line between playing a self-centred game and acting like an idiot, don't cross it.

[Zepher]

EDIT: I'm removing my comment on the subject. It was rude.

I don't think the change is going anywhere. Perhaps we should look to discussing the future instead of the past.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Zepher

[Pyrovisionary]

*Snip*

Pyro's defensive argument of wonder and fantabulosity:

Selfish: Adjective: Concerned only in one's personal gain.

Right then. What are we evil Darth-nerfers gaining from this? Nothing! I guess you are acting offended because I would say your personal gain has been lessened.

Now I shall list the basic classes and their roles.

Knight: defend the party from damage by soaking up damage with Sp.

Barbarian: dealing large AOE physical damage to kill the enemies.

Mage: dealing large AOE magic damage to kill the enemies.

Cleric: healing the party.

Ranger: Dealing high damage whilst taking less from the back row.

Rogue: ???

It could be said that the rogues job is to earn gold for the party's direct benefit Rather than hording and spending the gold on themselves, which, in turn indirectly benefits the party.

/EndRant

Also, Obelix, I think you forgot to add that 350 gold Sarge gave him for the mythril to Thalion's gold count after quest 64.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Pyrovisionary

[swils]

It sounds as though you're just bitter, to be honest.

I've been planning to switch to Dragoon for quite a while now. The realization that I only needed 2 Shadeaux rep accelerated that goal. This change, for the most part, will affect my play only for the duration of this quest.

If you want to know why this nerf happened, go and re-read this topic from the beginning. Also, what world are you living in where rogues have been known to upgrade people's weapons for them? It has never, ever taken place.

I'm quite well aware of the reasons put forth as to why it happened. I'm not so ignorant as to post a mini-rant without reading the rest of the thread. Additionally, that is exactly the world I am living in and I recognize that. That is what I'm getting at. Rogues can generate gold from thin air. They have the potential to spread that gold across the party, advancing everyone's stats, but no one has ever really asked that of them (The very idea has been shot down handily in the past). Even in a team setting such as this, everyone just expects and allows rogues to be extremely self-serving. Everyone could be benefiting from their harvests, but that's not what people wanted. They just wanted to see less gold going to the rogues who they let keep all the gold anyway.

Why would I be joking? My actions would be perfectly justified. If a rogue character is so downright selfish to only fight enemies that can be mugged, therefore putting their desires above those of the party, they do not deserve any loot in my view. The number one goal is and always has been finishing the battle as efficiently as possible. If you think that it's okay to ignore the wishes of the other heroes and simply do what benefits you the most, I doubt that many people will be happy having you in their party at all. There is a line between playing a self-centred game and acting like an idiot, don't cross it.

As long as the rogue is still attacking an enemy, they are acting to help the party win the battle. If a healer refuses to heal a character who is helping to win the fight, that healer is no longer acting to help the party. They are acting incredibly selfishly. Denying the rogue loot, well, you can make a case for that. People might even agree with you. But to deny healing to a party member, that's costing your party a valuable source of damage and inhibiting your team's ability to complete the fight, even if they aren't targeting the suggested enemy. I don't know how many people you could rally behind that flag. Maybe a lot. Hard to say. But I certainly wouldn't.

@Zeph, I know the change isn't going anywhere. I obviously disagree with the chosen adjustment and believe it was too heavy handed a change. We'll never know, now, if a lesser adjustment would have sufficed. But the change is the change and I at least respect the decision.

Selfish: Adjective: Concerned only in one's personal gain.

Right then. What are we evil Darth-nerfers gaining from this? Nothing! I guess you are acting offended because I would say your personal gain has been lessened.

See above. I'm switching to Dragoon shortly, this won't affect me very often. And you 'evil Darth-nerfers', if you wish to put it that way, are gaining a reduced gap in the economy because no one has made any effort to reduce the gap without resorting to mechanics changes.

Rogue: ???

It could be said that the rogues job is to earn gold for the party's direct benefit Rather than hording and spending the gold on themselves, which, in turn indirectly benefits the party.

I've said this. This is what I was arguing should have and should be happening.

Edited July 10, 2013 by swils

[Pyrovisionary]

*Snip*

Fair enough.

[Tachyon]

I really have the urge to just host a quest where every enemy has at least 1 gold in its drop.............

[Flare]

I think we should move on, people. Yes - it may be annoying, but at least you'll still be earning gold. If you want to go whine, do it in a different thread - this one is for Rules and FAQ, not complaints.

[Capt.JohnPaul]

As long as the rogue is still attacking an enemy, they are acting to help the party win the battle.

I think he means that if a rogue attacks an enemy just because it has gold, instead of attacking the enemy that would be strategically best for the party, then that's selfish.

[Tachyon]

If only I could swap to Black Knight..................

[Endgame]

If only I could swap to Black Knight..................

...You can? You started as a Rogue, correct?

[Tachyon]

Roleplay won't allow me. I mean do you imagine Mizuki with armour and a shield ?

[Capt.JohnPaul]

Wait 'till Docken sees that.

[Waterbrick Down]

I'm quite well aware of the reasons put forth as to why it happened. I'm not so ignorant as to post a mini-rant without reading the rest of the thread. Additionally, that is exactly the world I am living in and I recognize that. That is what I'm getting at. Rogues can generate gold from thin air. They have the potential to spread that gold across the party, advancing everyone's stats, but no one has ever really asked that of them (The very idea has been shot down handily in the past). Even in a team setting such as this, everyone just expects and allows rogues to be extremely self-serving. Everyone could be benefiting from their harvests, but that's not what people wanted. They just wanted to see less gold going to the rogues who they let keep all the gold anyway.

I see what you are getting at and I guess we as a community have always pigeonholed the rogues into being a selfish independent class. As Pyrovisionary noted, rogues don't really have a party role except playing as more of a solo class by just buffing themselves, or as a jack of all trades spreading the wealth type of class. If it's the former, then we need to limit their income because they upgrade too quickly to keep the game balanced, if it's the latter then of course there is no problem and we as a community just need to expect the rogues to be more generous with their Gold earnings.

The issue I think might be psychological; subconsciously, not many people want either their class advantages to be impeded upon by another class, or to be dependent upon someone else's charity (a generous rogue) to gain an advantage. We all like being independently good at something without the help of another player, i.e. Clerics like being good at healing, Knights like being the ones to tank hits, Rangers like to be the ones dealing out a consistent amount of high damage, etc. Rogues just run counter to all of that.

[Wedge09]

Roleplay won't allow me. I mean do you imagine Mizuki with armour and a shield ?

Wait 'till Docken sees that.

As Docken says: stats over roleplaying, always :laugh:

[Kintobor]

Who ever said this was permanent? If this doesn't work we can always come back and try another strategy. I say we see what happens in a few quests time, and if it doesn't work, then we'll come back and try something else.