Heroica RPG Rules & FAQ

[CMP]

Another solution would be to stop allowing people to do nothing.

No way, what happens when a hero can do nothing but attack an enemy that can OHKO them?

[Scubacarrot]

No way, what happens when a hero can do nothing but attack an enemy that can OHKO them?

We'd have a lot less cowards in the hall. Half of them will die, the other half will be forced into bravery.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Scubacarrot

[Waterbrick Down]

Then Counterstrike Gloves would be useless because they only apply to free-hits.

I'm not saying it should be a passive special on every enemy and you'd still be able to counter-strike, you'd just be taking damage instead of tanking them, sort of how Alexis does in the UQ. However if a QM is worried that the strategy is going to be abused on their big baddie, like for instance the Crystal Titan or Count Shadeaux, then they could just add the passive special.

[Kintobor]

Another solution would be to stop allowing people to do nothing.

We'd have a lot less cowards in the hall. Half of them will die, the other half will be forced into bravery.

Irony much, coming from the guy who's know to use this tactic?

I'm actually sort of against the idea. If we're worried about player buffing themselves to the point where they're unstoppable tanks, then add more passives that break those defences and make the party have to adapt to their situation. A battle shouldn't have to be immediately warrant a nostrum, mead, smelling salts cocktail, so perhaps the issue is our battle have become too difficult? I don't feel putting a limit on it will change anything, since most battles are finished within ten rounds.

[Palathadric]

...since most battles are finished within ten rounds.

In which universe?

[joeshmoe554]

No way, what happens when a hero can do nothing but attack an enemy that can OHKO them?

The hero will pass his buddy a potion, or unequip an artifact, or do something else that clears your turn without attacking the opponent.

[Capt.JohnPaul]

I honestly do not support it. I don't see any reason that's necessary for it and I think the game is fine as it is.

[Kintobor]

In which universe?

Okay, maybe most quests have battles that last longer, or maybe 69 left some impression on you, I now realize that's a little bit of a false statement.

However, I feel we should test the water first, and see how the system works before this happens across the board, with utilizing it in one quest using the suggested rule change.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Kintobor

[Scorpiox]

The hero will pass his buddy a potion, or unequip an artifact, or do something else that clears your turn without attacking the opponent.

In that case, there's really nothing to stop two heroes endlessly passing a pint between themselves while they counterstrike something to death.

[Palathadric]

In that case, there's really nothing to stop two heroes endlessly passing a pint between themselves while they counterstrike something to death.

And having a marvelous time too.

I do tend to agree with Scorpiox though that this will make most buffing consumables less interesting for non-rogue classes. Maybe we should just not make Tiger balms available at the Marketplace or something.

It doesn't really matter to me though, as I use a buffing consumable like once per quest, if that.

The hero will pass his buddy a potion, or unequip an artifact, or do something else that clears your turn without attacking the opponent.

"I'm thirsty, got a potion?"

"Yep! Here!"

"Wow! Just holding it makes me not thirsty anymore. Have it back."

"Great!"

"Uh, oh! I feel thirsty again..."

...ad infinitum!

[Endgame]

Actually, confession: The Regret and Perfect Regret had no intermissions, so it was actually about a 50 round battle - the longest in Heroica to date that was duked out "legitmately", excluding Q50.

Honestly, here is my opinion: if you can fix it by designing the enemy different, do that. Change one encounter instead of chaning every encounter.

[Brickdoctor]

"I'm thirsty, got a potion?"

"Yep! Here!"

"Wow! Just holding it makes me not thirsty anymore. Have it back."

"Great!"

"Uh, oh! I feel thirsty again..."

...ad infinitum!

Only thirsty when it has a statistical or mechanical reason! I like it.

[Flare]

I am not in support of changing this. I think we should just leave it as it is.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Flare

[Flipz]

I don't like the idea of letting the positive effects expire. I understood why it was done in Quest 50, what with the kill-based leveling system, but I don't like the idea of it outside that sort of context. Firstly, it encourages QMs to make the battles longer, so they can outlast the Heroes' positive effects and be able to get to them. Heroica battles are already grossly overblown as it is--we need to be making our battles shorter and more streamlined, not longer and clunkier.

Second, it smacks of punishing the entire Heroica population for a strategy that's, all in all, used by a relative minority: the Knights. Sort of how the price of artifacts and goods in general got inflated de facto because of Rogues' gold-earning (pre-nerf), or how SP in general got a nerf with the additive Free Hits because Docken was becoming nigh-invincible (though that particular decision was the right one, since it's lessened power creep in the long run).

Essentially, if positive effects expire, then they're not worth buying consumables for, or spending Ether to cast from Scrolls, etc. It wouldn't limit Counterstriking strategies, because players would (and will) just keep buffing their SP through any means available to them. In this case (Counterstrike [ab]use), it's up to the QM to make sure their enemies aren't vulnerable to this strategy, whether through Passive Specials or other means.

(BTW, I definitely think that this Threshold Guardian should be/should have been retconned to have a passive special: "Uses Special II on Free Hits". In fact, healing specials on Free Hits are one of the better ways to countermand Counterstrike strategies, though it should be used with caution if there's multiple enemies in the group.)

Edited October 4, 2013 by Flipz

[Rumble Strike]

I had no problems with the mechanism in Quest#50, but do not agree that consumables should have a round-based expiry date. I think one of the issues is that battles are passive for the enemies, they simply respond to the dice roll. That's why the passive specials have crept up on boss fights. Maybe consider some kind of 'ambush' where the enemies attack first?

[Flipz]

Maybe consider some kind of 'ambush' where the enemies attack first?

There is (potentially, depending on player choices) an optional fight like this in my upcoming Cathedral Quest (just two and a half sets to go! ).

...Also, that reminds me, I need to PM you.

[Myrddyn]

Perhaps free hits could have a chance of ignoring SP when targeting a character who took no action that round?

Doh, that's pretty much been said.

Or just do extra damage, or ignore half SP.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Myrddyn

[Tachyon]

Fix it by adding more SP piercing enemies.

[Scorpiox]

Perhaps, as Flipz suggested, start giving boss monsters some anti-counter-striking Passive Specials. Something along the lines of this, maybe?

Passive Special: Free Hits target a random hero, not necessarily the first in the battle-order.

Passive Special: If untargetted, the monster will regenerate X amount of health.

Passive Special: If untargetted, the monster will raise its power level by one.

Passive Special: If untargetted, the monster will spawn a minion.

Passive Special: Free Hits ignore SP and/or row.

Personally, I think that something along the lines of those would be more effective than just weakening consumables.

[Tachyon]

How about an enemy which can counterstrike a counterstrike ?

[Scorpiox]

How about an enemy which can counterstrike a counterstrike ?

Would a hero be able to counterstrike the enemy's counterstrike to the counterstrike?

[Tachyon]

No, unless the hero has counterstriking-counter strike gloves

[Flare]

No, unless the hero has counterstriking-counter strike gloves

That made me laugh

[Sandy]

In this case (Counterstrike [ab]use), it's up to the QM to make sure their enemies aren't vulnerable to this strategy, whether through Passive Specials or other means.

(BTW, I definitely think that this Threshold Guardian should be/should have been retconned to have a passive special: "Uses Special II on Free Hits". In fact, healing specials on Free Hits are one of the better ways to countermand Counterstrike strategies, though it should be used with caution if there's multiple enemies in the group.)

I think those who have not hosted a quest fail to understand how QMs cannot possibly prepare for every possible strategy the party thinks up. The basic mechanics should not allow situations where the party can kill any enemy no matter what their strength is without even a chance of getting hurt in the process. That 's what I'm trying to fix here.

Simply pouring these "passive specials" that prevent the abuse of that kind of tactics onto boss enemies is counter-intuitive, because the tricks shouldn't be able to use on any enemy. Having more enemies that pierce SP isn't the solution either, because what would be the point of having SP in the first place? Having Free Hits ignore SP is illogical as well.

One possible solution could be to give more control of the enemies to the QM, so that the Free Hits won't be automatically directed to the person acting first. But I don't think many people would be into the whole "party vs. QM" situation...

[Scorpiox]

I think those who have not hosted a quest fail to understand how QMs cannot possibly prepare for every possible strategy the party thinks up. The basic mechanics should not allow situations where the party can kill any enemy no matter what their strength is without even a chance of getting hurt in the process. That 's what I'm trying to fix here.

Simply pouring these "passive specials" that prevent the abuse of that kind of tactics onto boss enemies is counter-intuitive, because the tricks shouldn't be able to use on any enemy. Having more enemies that pierce SP isn't the solution either, because what would be the point of having SP in the first place? Having Free Hits ignore SP is illogical as well.

One possible solution could be to give more control of the enemies to the QM, so that the Free Hits won't be automatically directed to the person acting first. But I don't think many people would be into the whole "party vs. QM" situation...

In that case, how will the limiting of consumables prevent this strategy in any way, shape or form? A knight doesn't need buffs to counterstrike, so therefore, what purpose would this global-nerf serve?

The expiration dates for consumables isn't the solution to a completely different problem, so I fail to see how it will change anything here.

And for the record: if something can be found to protect bosses but not other enemies from this strategy - I say do it. If this issue cannot be solved, damage limitation is likely the best policy.

Passive Special: Free Hits target a random hero, not necessarily the first in the battle-order.

Passive Special: If untargetted, the monster will regenerate X amount of health.

Passive Special: If untargetted, the monster will raise its power level by one.

Passive Special: If untargetted, the monster will spawn a minion.

Passive Special: Free Hits ignore SP and/or row.

A couple of these could work for a number of enemies.