Heroica RPG Rules & FAQ

[Waterbrick Down]

I think those who have not hosted a quest fail to understand how QMs cannot possibly prepare for every possible strategy the party thinks up. The basic mechanics should not allow situations where the party can kill any enemy no matter what their strength is without even a chance of getting hurt in the process. That 's what I'm trying to fix here.

I wouldn't say that this is a basic mechanic, it requires the correct setup to pull off and has only come up less than a 1/2 dozen times in the entirety of Heroica. Even so boss monsters shouldn't be governed by basic mechanics it's what makes them special. I agree there is a problem, but I'm starting to think there might be better to solutions than a far reaching rule change. We're basing our entire argument on one class (knights), one stat (SP), and one effect (reinforced) and the implementation of a 10 round rule will effect every class, more than one stat, and all the positive effects.

Simply pouring these "passive specials" that prevent the abuse of that kind of tactics onto boss enemies is counter-intuitive, because the tricks shouldn't be able to use on any enemy. Having more enemies that pierce SP isn't the solution either, because what would be the point of having SP in the first place? Having Free Hits ignore SP is illogical as well.

If we don't want the trick being used on any enemy than implementing the 10 round rule will not solve the issue as it can happen naturally without the use of consumables, either through artifacts or by simply upgrading SP to really high levels.

One possible solution could be to give more control of the enemies to the QM, so that the Free Hits won't be automatically directed to the person acting first. But I don't think many people would be into the whole "party vs. QM" situation...

I don't think this is the answer not because of the "party vs. QM" which occurs in monster creation anyways, but because it will fundamentally change how battles are planned out by parties. Unless we want to start assigning a Speed/Initiative stat to players as well as a Positioning aspect to the game, I don't believe we should go down this route.

Right now, I think the solution is to add a passive special to an enemy if you're worried about someone employ this technique, or just slap on an immunity to free-hits just like an immunity to all negative effects which is a popular fix all for QM's.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Waterbrick Down

[Pyrovisionary]

Passive special: Assassin's creed counter - any hero that counterstrikes this enemy is instantaneously KO'd

I'm sorry but I don't have a single solution. But I honestly think it's a matter of alternating who the free hits go to.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Pyrovisionary

[Waterbrick Down]

Passive special: Assassin's creed counter - any hero that counterstrikes this enemy is instantaneously KO'd

I'm sorry but I don't have a single solution. But I honestly think it's a matter of alternating who the free hits go to.

That would sort of do away with the whole purpose of the Knight class. They go in the top of the order because they can go toe to toe with the bigger baddies.

[Zepher]

I'm onboard the passive special train, personally. Seems the easiest and most creative fix.

[Flare]

I think maybe we should just get rid of the counterstrike gloves, then all the problems are taken care of

[Waterbrick Down]

Another thing, what about the poison wait-out strategy are we thinking those shouldn't be valid either?

[Zepher]

Yeah, a passive special that heals on untargetted hits seems like a good solution, or an enemy deals double damage on free hits, or something. There are certainly ways to work around it if the QM is smart - and I don't mind the strategy used from time to time. I think it should only be counter-acted in cases where it clearly should not work (the Count and Titan being the two I can think of right now). Really its up to the QMs, I think, and I like leaving as much in the QM's hands as possible.

[Brickdoctor]

I don't think we should try to nullify the wait-out strategy. If a player can do it, then that's a result of how well they've built their character. (If they can do it with a bad build/roll, then that's the QM's fault.) The consumable expiration makes sense to me, but beyond that, I'd just leave it to the QM to introduce ways that the wait-out strategy might not be as desirable of an option. Time-sensitive reward, not autorolling as much, etc. Not making it impossible, just making it less desirable. After all, a feature of a good quest is the important impact of the choices that the players have to make.

[Zepher]

I agree with BD. It should be negated when it should be negated, and otherwise I actually genuinely don't have a problem with it. I'd be pissed if it were on a boss, but I can design the enemy around that. Minions... well, I agree that the player should be rewarded for a smart build.

[Brickdoctor]

And if you the QM don't want players to wait-out your boss, and the players are able to wait-out your boss anyways, then that is either your fault for not designing the boss properly or a result of a player's cleverness with something overlooked by everyone else; the players don't deserve to be penalized in the first case and they do deserve to be rewarded in the second.

[Flare]

I agree with all that Zepher and Brickdoctor have said - I think the power should be left in the QM's hands to keep things balanced.

[Sandy]

And if you the QM don't want players to wait-out your boss, and the players are able to wait-out your boss anyways, then that is either your fault for not designing the boss properly or a result of a player's cleverness with something overlooked by everyone else;

I think that's an unfair thing to say. Must every boss really have some sort of SP-piercing, counterstrike-nullifying ability just so the party would fight them straight-on and not exploit a loophole in the mechanics?

Again, I'm painstakingly aware that it's my fault that there's a loophole in the mechanics in the first place (even though I didn't invent the CS Gloves, I did approve of them), but now you guys are telling me all I can do to fix said loophole is to add an incessant amount of extra abilities to each enemy just to avoid the loophole to be abused?

Creating enemies and balancing them to suit the quest party is already hard as it is, so I'm not okay with the thought of having to give them all skills that don't fit the basic mechanics (like making them pierce SP or twisting the way the Free Hits work etc.).

Making positive effects last a limited time would have been a simple, QM-friendly solution. It doesn't even have to be 10 rounds, it could be 20 or even 30 rounds, just as long as there's no way for the heroes to win just by autorolling.

[Zepher]

I really think most QMs are comfortable working around it. Not every enemy has to avoid the strategy - only a few per quest - and really there are many ways to get around it.

-Enemies with high levels to begin with that don't make counter-striking feasible

-Enemies that pierce SP

-Enemies that heal on free hits instead of attacking

-Enemies that deal extra damage on free hits

There ARE ways around it. It hasn't come up a too often, and so it wouldn't need to be counter-acted too often either. If there's an enemy you REALLY don't want that strategy used on, then use one of the above specials. If its an enemy it doesn't matter to you if its beaten that way, then it doesn't matter and they can/should be rewarded for their smart build.

[CMP]

Creating enemies and balancing them to suit the quest party is already hard as it is, so I'm not okay with the thought of having to give them all skills that don't fit the basic mechanics (like making them pierce SP or twisting the way the Free Hits work etc.).

I've had to add some sort of wild card mechanic to every battle in Quest 82 so far to deal with two-three characters constantly buffing themselves with consumables. I'm fine with that, I like the challenge, and generally using them is enough to avoid the wait-out strategy, but I too can understand most QMs probably don't want to have to mix up every single battle to account for these sorts of loopholes and such. I'm still in favor of timed positive effects, and I don't think anything else has to be changed.

-Enemies with high levels to begin with that don't make counter-striking feasible

-Enemies that pierce SP

-Enemies that heal on free hits instead of attacking

-Enemies that deal extra damage on free hits

I consider the second and the fourth pretty cheap ways of solving the issues, personally.

[Zepher]

I'm not suggesting that EVERY enemy have these abilities, only a few and far between enemy.

[Scorpiox]

My view in short: changing enemies to avoid this strategy (if necessary) is the way to go, not changing effects.

Making positive effects last a limited time would have been a simple, QM-friendly solution. It doesn't even have to be 10 rounds, it could be 20 or even 30 rounds, just as long as there's no way for the heroes to win just by autorolling.

Also, how does limiting effects prevent this strategy? Players don't need buffs to do this, as far as I can see.

[Brickdoctor]

I think that's an unfair thing to say. Must every boss really have some sort of SP-piercing, counterstrike-nullifying ability just so the party would fight them straight-on and not exploit a loophole in the mechanics?

[...]

Making positive effects last a limited time would have been a simple, QM-friendly solution. It doesn't even have to be 10 rounds, it could be 20 or even 30 rounds, just as long as there's no way for the heroes to win just by autorolling.

No, like I said, you shouldn't have to make the wait-out strategy impossible, just not as desirable. Enemies that are designed just to nullify heroes' special abilities don't seem particularly fair or creative.

And as I said, I'm in favor of the change to consumables; that makes sense. But beyond that, leave it to the QM to decide; don't force the SP-piercing or Counterstrike-nullifying abilities by changing the mechanics of Free Hits.

[Waterbrick Down]

I understand that some QM's don't want to put more time into enemy design, but my point is that a time limit on consumables won't fix the problem and like Flipz says it will hurt more things than it will fix. Take for instance Meads, they don't affect the wait-out strategy but they'll be penalized by this rule. People can still employ the wait-out strategy even if such a rule was implemented. The only way to avoid the problem from an over-arching rules perspective, is to either change the free-hit mechanic or the "do nothing" option, neither of which I think people will be in favor of. Thus the only option in my opinion is better boss-enemy design.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Waterbrick Down

[Brickdoctor]

The overall goal in my opinion should be transition to enemies with higher Levels, higher SP, and lower HP. All the bosses with ridiculous amounts of HP are just prolonging battles, not necessarily making them more challenging. With higher Levels and SP and lower HP, enemies are still dangerous, battles can end more quickly, and attacking head-on is a more desirable option. I've been trying to do this; I know Zeph's been trying to do it as well.

But I'm still in favor of the consumable expiration, because it makes sense realistically and because it adds more strategy to how consumables are used.

[Sandy]

My view in short: changing enemies to avoid this strategy (if necessary) is the way to go, not changing effects.

It's not really down to the enemies - they already work according to the basic game mechanics (although what BD is saying about a different balance between power, defense and health could be in order). It's the strategy of combining overly high SP and standing in the back row with automatic damage such as the Counterstrike Gloves or poisoning that's the problem here.

The wait-out strategy (no matter how it's done) has never been an intentional part of the mechanics, it's a loophole. I don't want players to be able to just wait around for their enemies to die without even a slight chance of getting hurt in the process. That's not how this game is supposed to be played.

Also, how does limiting effects prevent this strategy? Players don't need buffs to do this, as far as I can see.

You're right, the problem is not solely based on positive effects, but they certainly add to the problem.

It's impossible to plan and balance enemies taking into account every possible effect that the player might have. In Quest#75 it was easier since I gave the party all effects from the get-go, knowing that they were at their absolute maximum power already. In normal circumstances stacking all the effects onto a hero doesn't just give them an edge to the battle, it allows an unrelented massacre. If the effects only worked for a limited time, the battle would be less one-sided and more susceptible to dramatic changes - making them that much more challenging.

But perhaps I need to think of another way to fix the loophole.

[Brickdoctor]

The wait-out strategy (no matter how it's done) has never been an intentional part of the mechanics, it's a loophole. I don't want players to be able to just wait around for their enemies to die without even a slight chance of getting hurt in the process. That's not how this game is supposed to be played.

Then why should players be penalized for exploiting it? It's not game-breaking; it's easy enough for QMs to fix it simply by altering the balance of HP/SP/Level. Raise the Levels, lower the HP, the enemies will still be dangerous, strategizing will still exist, players won't have their items' abilities nullified, waiting-out will be less common, mechanics don't have to be changed, and battles are easier to calculate and finish more quickly. Win-win-win-win-win-win.

[UsernameMDM]

Another thing that may have been mention is that Boss type enemies should be able to do Special Damage on free hits. This would discourage a wait-it-out strategy.

[Brickdoctor]

Another thing that may have been mention is that Boss type enemies should be able to do Special Damage on free hits. This would discourage a wait-it-out strategy.

No, that's basically the same as applying a Passive Special to the Free Hits; it's not as fair to the players as simply adjusting Level/SP/HP.

[Endgame]

I'm in favor of passives as well - who would've gussed!

-Infuriation: On free hits that do no damage, the enemy Enrages the hero who recieved the free hit for 3 rounds. "Fight me like a man!"

-Toxic Touch: Whenever a hero is the subject of a roll of damage/a Free Hit, that hero is Badly Poisoned. "Let it sink in..."

-Disarm: On free hits, the monster has a 1/3 chance of dequipping the hero's artifacts. "Feeling a bit defenseless, knight?"

-Desperation: The monster gains 3/4/5/6/etc. levels whenever counterstruck. "Okay. Now I'm angry."

Just a few soltuions - none of them completely cripple the strategy, but they put a lot of people at risk.

Another underlying problem is the fact that the Threshold Guardians typically don't sport minions of any sort - the one that did got easily stomped by simple type matching. A single enemy requires some really wacky gimmick to keep them formidable. None of the Threshold Guardians have offered too much of a choice besides wait it or whale on them - thus why I believe the Kraken was by far the best out of all of them.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Endgame

[Flipz]

I have to agree with Endgame--the Threshold Guardians haven't done well as bosses because they adhere to the basic rules, which players have had two years to figure out ways to exploit. Nothing we can do will ever make that sort of enemy universally challenging, because, to be frank, there are dozens of different strategies people have worked out for exploiting them--if it's not Counterstrike strategy, it's effect abuse, or Healing Staves, or unique Artifact abilities, or...you get the idea. People have built dozens of unique and terrifying builds, and there's no way to account for ALL of them.

If the problem is the Counterstrike Gloves, then perhaps they should be changed to offer something similar to the Mirror Damage ability that Sorcerers have--that is, rather than dealing damage equal to the Hero's Level, they deal damage equal to the damage taken. That way, the Heroes have to take damage in order to deal damage.