Heroica RPG Rules & FAQ

[Flipz]

You guys make hundreds each battle, that's more than enough to buy a mead, a nostrum, smelling salts, tonics, potions, etc.

Re-check Arthur's earnings on Quest 53. I believe I rolled 3 Shields that entire Quest--the only reason I made decent money was because the last two battles had such insanely high-level enemies. In a normal Quest, I would have made MAYBE a third of what I did.

Sorcerers are going to be the hardest hit by any kind of Gold nerf, because they have additional overhead that Rogues, Raiders, and Assassins don't have. Just thought I should note that, even though I personally am leaving the class.

I think that I will have to drop my previous statement on being against the nerfing of the goldearning - I think it will be more fair if the rogue's stealing ability will be nerfed AND quest masters will start dropping more gold, or offering more gold as a reward for the quest. Both must happen. The best way, in my opinion, is Endgame's idea.

Dear GOD yes. We need this back. Seriously, half the problem is that the Gold rewards for Quests vanished when QMs started offering levels instead. :thumbup:

I should point out, I'm not against a nerf, I'm pointing out potential side-effects that people might not be thinking of.

[Waterbrick Down]

I think Pandora and Brickdoctor have put it best in that it is not that we don't appreciate having rogues with lots of extra consumables or high weapon power, but that it undermines the value of other classes. Rogues can go into how high their upkeep budget is, but remember the rest of the classes do just fine without being jacked up on consumables all of the time.

Between the suggestions thus far, I'm in favor of either the Humanoid clause, or Endgame's second proposal. In a way Endgame's second proposal actually provides for QM common sense: If you think an enemy could have gold stolen from them, then add some gold into their drop.

[Endgame]

I'm in favor of my second proposal (Not becuase it's mine. ) simply because it allows more room for the QM to operate, while the humanoid clause is really limiting.

[Waterbrick Down]

I'm in favor of my second proposal (Not becuase it's mine. ) simply because it allows more room for the QM to operate, while the humanoid clause is really limiting.

Even though realistically I think only humanids and with a few exceptions, will be caring Gold.

[CMP]

I think Pandora and Brickdoctor have put it best in that it is not that we don't appreciate having rogues with lots of extra consumables or high weapon power, but that it undermines the value of other classes. Rogues can go into how high their upkeep budget is, but remember the rest of the classes do just fine without being jacked up on consumables all of the time.

Between the suggestions thus far, I'm in favor of either the Humanoid clause, or Endgame's second proposal. In a way Endgame's second proposal actually provides for QM common sense: If you think an enemy could have gold stolen from them, then add some gold into their drop.

As the only Rogue that no longer has a gold-making ability (save Black Knights...sort of), it really makes your appreciate how easy you had it for yourself when you were raking in quite a bit more than your allies (this was before the consumables strategy, so it wasn't that much, for reference). The reason I think there's only one Witch in the fame is that most Rogues have, since the rise of the strategy, grown too reliant on it, and because there's literally no point to give it up. They'd be better off going Raider or Assassin and taking it to new levels. Look at the stats of someone using it like Sorrow, or Guts, or Dyric, or Hybros to any other hero. WP is around 20+. Plus a hell of a lot of immunities. Compare to others at their level, and bear in mind that in addition to much weaker stats, they're not always Lucky, Hastened, or Encouraged - no matter how much they give, they're always going to be stronger than their other party members unless their QM manages to work around it, which isn't easy. The game is just too easy for them, and makes every other offense class look pointless. Know how you can tell?

4 Assassins, 6 Raiders, 3 Sorcerers. 13 heroes went for offensive gold-gaining abilities that could easily skyrocket them to thousands of gold. Let's compare to the other pure offense-based classes, those that aren't part Rogue.

3 Hunters, 1 Battle Mage, 1 Evoker. 5 heroes. Let's add the 2 Mystic Knights, 3 Black Knights, and 2 Berserkers, they're offensive enough....nope, that's still less.

As this point in the game, gold i just an extremely pliable resource. You could buy enough consumables to replace a Cleric, enough SP and the Lucky effect to make the defensive abilities of Knight and Ranger pointless, WP high enough to make a Barbarian envious, damage and weapon imbuement to take away from Mages...it really needs a nerf. Sandy said himself classes should be good at one thing and bad at others. Right now, these classes can do almost anything.

I'm in favor of the Humanoids rule.

[Scubacarrot]

I'm sorry to speak up in a negative manner against you, but I want to respectfully point out that Scuba does seem to criticize many features and items, especially when it undermines his superiority. (if I have misunderstood your intentions, Scuba, than please accept my apologies.)

I accept your apology. I appreciate it. Perhaps I´m more prone to thinking and talking about issues if they are relevant to me and my character, I don´t know. But I´m definitely not after securing my place as the strongest character out there. What´d be the fun?

After saying he would drop the issue until/unless something came up to warrant a change. Seriously, he's brought it up three times now for no apparent reason.

This is about the gold making thing in general, not about your item. Your item did got me thinking about the balance of the game, and it did help me reach this conclusion. I understand your reservations, but I stand by my points. I don´t think the game should adapt to the rogues, but the rogues to the game, that´s my view of it, anyway.

[TheBoyWonder]

The one thing I find is that Witch still seems relatively underpowered, even with a potential nerf of the rest of the rogue classes.

[Scubacarrot]

The one thing I find is that Witch still seems relatively underpowered, even with a potential nerf of the rest of the rogue classes.

I think you are underestimating the potential power of special mirror,

[TheBoyWonder]

Yes, but the number of times the witch will die from special mirror is high too.

[CMP]

The one thing I find is that Witch still seems relatively underpowered, even with a potential nerf of the rest of the rogue classes.

I think Witch is fine. It loses gold-gaining, but with healing, a high health count, and both an offensive Shield and Special Damage, it's sort of a jack-of-all-trades.

I think you are underestimating the potential power of special mirror,

The ability to gain gold is insignificant next to the power of Special Mirror.

I'm gonna miss it.

[Scubacarrot]

Yes, but the number of times the witch will die from special mirror is high too.

Is it though? If the special is a straight up damage, sure. But if the special conveys extra health, summons allies or inflicts effects, it´s suddenly extremely helpful. In most interesting battles, there is a way for special mirror to shine through, I think. It´s definitely situational, but I think that´s fine. Perhaps some more, different Witch Amulet´s can be sold to keep the Witch´ poison ability to become obsolote, and it´s probably a good idea to make Deadly Poisoned standard and change the Witch Amulet into something more potent (25?) but beyond that, I think the class is fine. It´s also one of my favorite to QM because it´s just so funny to see what could happen.

[Flipz]

Except Special Mirror doesn't come into effect when the Witch dies.

[CMP]

Perhaps some more, different Witch Amulet´s can be sold to keep the Witch´ poison ability to become obsolote, and it´s probably a good idea to make Deadly Poisoned standard and change the Witch Amulet into something more potent (25?) but beyond that, I think the class is fine.

Okay, that's a reasonable change, because regular Poisoning is really pointless, even at only Level 15. Not necessary, but it'd be cool.

Except Special Mirror doesn't come into effect when the Witch dies.

The real trick is to not die, you see.

[Endgame]

Perhaps switch the Witch's talisman to a Plague Talisman?

[swils]

It's always been "we'll split everything evenly - except all this gold I've stolen, you can't touch it."

I politely beg to differ. I've passed on drops because I've stolen a lot already, and I've passed out gold (some, certainly not an across-the-board split) to party members after a significantly large haul.

Put the onus on Rogues to be attractive party members by using their unique ability to benefit their entire party. An attractive rogue might bring an excess of consumables on a quest and be very open with their use, for themselves and others and will probably keep gold for themselves to restock supplies. An attractive rogue might also (and/or) share the wealth to some degree. They certainly don't have to, but the ones who do will get noticed and, down the line, rewarded in their own way. The stingy ones will be passed over for party-sign-up quests and the particularly greedy ones will likely have it turned in their face--people less willing to cut them slack in a deal simply because they have kept so much gold for themselves.

[Myrddyn]

When it comes to Dragon and Troll hoards, I think it makes sense for them to not be muggable, as I'd have thought the QM would have placed a hoard somewhere for the party to find.

I mean, if a dragon has a huge pile of gold, then surely that pile will be somewhere the party can loot it after the fight, rather than inside the dragon.

If it comes to a vote, I vote Nerf: Scuba's law (Humanoids) or Endgame's second law (Enemies with gold drops only)

EDIT: For the record, that is one or t'other. I do not support both, just whichever one gets the most votes.

As for witches, I'd say the next closest class to them would be shaman. Sage is somewhat different with it's spellcasting, paladin carries a shield, druid has ranged attacks and nurture. The other classes don't really heal. I table'd witch v/s shaman: http://is.gd/pQfCNh

Witch v/s shaman analysis in spoilers (it's a decent block of text):

In my opinion, the shamans shield is slightly better, though of course it depends on the circumstances. If the party's on full health, it's crap.

Neither class has miss when making attacks, instead shaman has meditate, and witch has poison. I'd say meditate is slightly better, but again, depends on the circumstances.

Natural respite is equal to better than flee, because they're both basic job classes, and I think Sandy would have made them roughly equal when he put them in there. Natural respite could be slightly better than flee actually, but both have their place. See Flipz' post after this one.

Then witch has throwing weapons versus shamans extra critical hits. I'd say witch gets a slightly better deal there, but only if they put money into throwing weapons.

Witch also has a bunch more chances to poison, aside from on miss, which could make up for being (imho) slightly weaker otherwise.

Conclusion: Roughly equal.

That is, assuming you have a witches talisman. I'd definitely support buffing Poison.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Myrddyn

[Flipz]

Flee's actually a lot less useful than Natural Respite--unless your QM specifically sets up a scenario in which Flee is needed, using it ends up as a punishment--you don't get any experience, and you often get left out of loot distribution. It's better to just fight until you're KO'd, as at least that way there's a chance your party can revive you, and you'll still likely get a share of loot.

[posades]

I'm in favor of the Humanoid rule being implemented, but I think the Overkill Gloves should have a different nerf. They're magical gloves, after all, so they can make money out of thin air for all we know; but as they stand, I think they're slightly overpowered.

And passing/using consumables on other players isn't just a Rogue thing. I've done it in the past, as I'm sure others have as well that aren't part-Rogue. The thing is, we don't always have the spare money to buy multiple nostrums/meads/etc. if we want to upgrade our weapons/defense. No one is forcing Rogues to be hastened, lucky and encouraged every battle; if the nerf forces Rogues to keep their consumables, so be it (besides, that's more in-character anyways isn't it? ).

[Myrddyn]

Flee's actually a lot less useful than Natural Respite--unless your QM specifically sets up a scenario in which Flee is needed, using it ends up as a punishment--you don't get any experience, and you often get left out of loot distribution. It's better to just fight until you're KO'd, as at least that way there's a chance your party can revive you, and you'll still likely get a share of loot.

Flee can in some circumstances prevent a quest from being lost, if TPK means the quest fails, and no-one has a smoke bomb, I believe. Natural respite may not be a full heal, and then being a cleric class you may end up healing yourself to full health anyway.

But I see your point, I've edited my analysis, and I still think the classes are roughly equal. (Not that I think you were saying they were not equal).

[Capt.JohnPaul]

I vote: The Great Endgame Compromise of 2013 (His second proposal.)

[Palathadric]

In a way though, having a higher WP benefits the party, by being able to slaughter other enemies. I'd agree we need some sort of nerf (Nothing as severe as humanoid - only, for sure), but being wealthy does benefit other heroes in a roundabout way.

I disagree entirely. When you've got Rogues with insane WP, QMs have to raise the stakes, so of course, in the end the rogues end up helping the party, but it's their fault the party needs help to begin with. But I agree, if less gold is dropped, Rogues may not buy so many consumables which would make Clerics much more needed and useful, which is good. Furthermore, maybe with less consumables floating around, it would also force QMs to drop more of them, which is also good. Although I like in theory the idea of enemies with gold in their inventories being ones able to be stolen from, I think that just the humanoids or common sense enemies is fine too. I think there is no reason for an enemy to drop nothing, especially a humanoid enemy. If nothing else, let him drop five gold. We see quite a lot of enemies these days who have nothing in their droppings deposit.

[Tachyon]

Well Consumable-Rogue will be harder to use due to the lack of income.........................

[Capt.JohnPaul]

You will not have a lack of income. It's not even your job to begin with. It's the clerics.

[CMP]

Well Consumable-Rogue will be harder to use due to the lack of income.........................

Good. It's almost an undefeatable strategy, it should be costlier.

[Palathadric]

Perhaps some more, different Witch Amulet´s can be sold to keep the Witch´ poison ability to become obsolote, and it´s probably a good idea to make Deadly Poisoned standard and change the Witch Amulet into something more potent (25?) but beyond that, I think the class is fine. It´s also one of my favorite to QM because it´s just so funny to see what could happen.

I agree with this very much, especially considering how weak poisoning is against powerful enemies these days. Even Deadly Poisoning is relatively weak compared to many enemies. However, one must consider that deadly poisoning an enemy on a roll of 4 or something more than that if they have an upgraded Witch's Amulet, seems quite a lot more powerful than Meditating.

Good. It's almost an undefeatable strategy, it should be costlier.

Precisely.

I vote in favour of the Common Sense rule, because it's just common sense.