Heroica RPG Rules & FAQ

[UsernameMDM]

Can we make some objective rules for Diplomacy? 1/6-1/3-1/2 chance to persuade NPC or something like that?

[Kintobor]

Can we make some objective rules for Diplomacy? 1/6-1/3-1/2 chance to persuade NPC or something like that?

There has to be times where diplomacy won't work, and even backfires, since if that's the case and we give stats to diplomacy, then technically a party with a knight could get out of major battles. It makes the moments where it does work seem to matter. Giving diplomacy a stat seems less important than actually trying to persuade someone using roleplaying. If we give it a stat, who's to say someone can't just say:

"Look guys, what your doing is bad, and I don't want that to happen, so stop being bad." I say diplomatically.

and then succeed. I don't care what the stats say, no one's going to listen to him. The effectiveness of diplomacy, intimidation, and promiscuity is also affected by how the character says it, and what actions they do, and who they're saying it to. Prince David seemed like a bit of a radical, so it seemed to me like nothing you did would have made him change his way.

Just my thoughts.

[Brickdoctor]

And also giving a die roll to Diplomacy opens up the chance to abuse it ("You don't want to sell me deathsticks for that ridiculous amount. You want to give me all your loot and Gold and rethink your life," I say Diplomatically.), and giving a die roll to Diplomacy prevents the QM from being able to plan situations where Diplomacy just shouldn't work. Diplomacy, after all, is based on how the PC speaks, as Kintobor said, and also upon how the NPC reacts because of what kind of character the NPC is, which is not something that a random die should determine.

[UsernameMDM]

Are the other classes characteristics tied solely roleplaying?

I understand what you are saying, but having a subjective skill is pretty useless for a PC is the QM wants to do something.

For instance, would Nerwen & Hoke been able to talk their way out of being led away? There should be at least a small chance of that happening, and I like that to be determined with the roll of the dice.

[Endgame]

Almost all skills, QMs can decide when and where it works. Spellcasting can be shot down fairly enough, for example. Flee is really only the big one I can think of. A large part of QMing is letting the heroes use their class at the appropriate times at appropriate amounts.

I would use Diplomacy to haggle with shopkeepers, sway indecisive townsfolk to our side, and persuade some low-level guard to leave you alone in exchange for a keg of Mead. it really shouldn't work on Antagonists, unless they themselves are not resolute.

[Kintobor]

Are the other classes characteristics tied solely roleplaying?

I think the role of a die is a much worse option than being able to have some leverage to the outcome of a skill. One could make the greatest counter points and arguments in the world to an opposing NPC and still botch it due to a die roll.

Edited March 23, 2014 by Kintobor

[Endgame]

You also run into the slippery slope of either

A) Making all diplomacy have equal chance, removing the RP aspect.

B) Having to give RP a numerical value.

Both are things you'd probably not want to do.

[Flipz]

I think this is just one case where we get to see my advice to Zeph about 92 demonstrated. It's like having a Quest with all enemies Immune to Assasination, and then picking an Assassin as your Party Leader, or having all enemies be Etherial and then picking a Mage. Zeph relies really, really heavily on plot, and even though his best moment are when he goes off the rails, he forgets that that's the case.

To Zeph: Remember, Diplomacy doesn't have to mean a choice between "they fight" and "they don't fight". If your characters are going to be "immune to Diplomacy", then let Diplomacy/Intimidate have other benefits--perhaps leaving some characters who're conflicted between duty and reason Confused at the start of a fight, or an enemy that was Intimidated be Afraid for part of the battle. Consistently ignoring the class skill, however, is not the best way to go.

[CMP]

These quests are pretty linear, if nobody's noticed. They have to be in order to keep things synchronized in these quests. And putting diplomacy in front of everything you say shouldn't just automatically make it more valid.

[UsernameMDM]

I don't agree that Diplomacy should be used on merchants to change the prices of goods. That kind negates the benefit of Artisan class.

[Scorpiox]

I think a perfect example of the place of diplomacy in a quest is the scene in Quest #89 outside whatever city we're in now. We needed to get into the city no matter what, and despite the huge conversation we had and the use of both promiscuity and intimidation there was no result whatsoever. The plot would not have been changed had we been allowed to save our gold through use of diplomacy, but unfortunately I did not feel that our efforts had any impact on the two minor characters.

Edited March 23, 2014 by Scorpiox

[Brickdoctor]

I don't agree that Diplomacy should be used on merchants to change the prices of goods. That kind negates the benefit of Artisan class.

That's up to the creativity of the player and the decision of the QM about when it should and shouldn't work. The ability to try out things outside the box and then have a game master handle and interpret the more subjective and unorthodox actions we choose is one of the great advantages of an RPG run by humans over one run by a computer; why take away the ability of the QM to decide when it makes sense for an ability to work?

[UsernameMDM]

That's up to the creativity of the player and the decision of the QM about when it should and shouldn't work. The ability to try out things outside the box and then have a game master handle and interpret the more subjective and unorthodox actions we choose is one of the great advantages of an RPG run by humans over one run by a computer; why take away the ability of the QM to decide when it makes sense for an ability to work?

I agree there should be a reward for good roleplaying, but there are concrete rules that should be followed so PCs & QMs have some semblance of what to expect as far as mechanics go.

[Flipz]

I agree there should be a reward for good roleplaying, but there are concrete rules that should be followed so PCs & QMs have some semblance of what to expect as far as mechanics go.

I disagree, I just think that both players and QMs should put a little more thought into use of class skills when designing and playing Quests.

[Brickdoctor]

I agree there should be a reward for good roleplaying, but there are concrete rules that should be followed so PCs & QMs have some semblance of what to expect as far as mechanics go.

We do know what to expect: we say that we're using Diplomacy; the QM decides whether or not it works based on the PC's actions and the NPC's character traits. Diplomacy is not roleplaying; Diplomacy is the ability of a Knight to form a logical argument and be more likely to persuade an NPC to agree with him. Roleplaying can affect Diplomacy, but you don't have to roleplay in order to understand the situation and NPC you're dealing with. Character traits and behavior should definitely not be randomized; it doesn't make sense for an NPC's reaction to be based on a die roll.

[Flipz]

We do know what to expect: we say that we're using Diplomacy; the QM decides whether or not it works based on the PC's actions and the NPC's character traits. Diplomacy is not roleplaying; Diplomacy is the ability of a Knight to form a logical argument and be more likely to persuade an NPC to agree with him. Roleplaying can affect Diplomacy, but you don't have to roleplay in order to understand the situation and NPC you're dealing with. Character traits and behavior should definitely not be randomized; it doesn't make sense for an NPC's reaction to be based on a die roll.

Quoted for truth. Diplomacy isn't mind control, it's simply the ability to be taken seriously (sort of the opposite of the Buffoon's Hat). Non-Diplomacy Heroes can sometimes be taken seriously depending on their words and behavior, but Diplomatic Heroes always are--no more, no less. (Heck, depending on the situation, use of Diplomacy to make an NPC take you seriously might cause a fight when otherwise you might have been left alone. QMs: you're welcome. )

[UsernameMDM]

Never said it was mind control, but it's a skill, and there should be at least a small chance that it should work. It's being able to use words instead of weapons.

That's why I like the option for a 1/6 chance for it to work. It takes all of those random factors and allows a PC to be able to actually make an effect outside of fighting.

I mean have any of y'all not been talked into or out of something before?

I am comparing it somewhat to a Charisma check from D&D.

[Pyrovisionary]

I mean have any of y'all not been talked into or out of something before?

Yes. That is how I have 53 games on Steam and have backed 3 kickstarter projects.

[Kintobor]

I mean have any of y'all not been talked into or out of something before?

Yes, and I usually regretted it afterwards.

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think any of us really want Heroica to turn into Dungeons and Dragons. Some characters just can't be persuaded, like in real life.

However, I think QM's have heard your complaints, and I at least will make an effort towards including more scenarios where diplomacy can be used.

[UsernameMDM]

I am not wanting to turn it in D&D for sure, but if a class has a skill, there should be some objective way to use it and it be acknowledge.

Just in 88 (& not being ugly to Zeph), but it seems Diplomacy has not worked once. Not with Mint, not with the Prince, and not with the current situation. I understand having to follow a story line, but it would be nice to know when Diplomacy/Intimidation is a viable option instead of wasting time, especially with players in different time zones.

[Brickdoctor]

Never said it was mind control, but it's a skill, and there should be at least a small chance that it should work. It's being able to use words instead of weapons.

There is a small chance it will work. The chance depends on the traits that the QM has set for the NPC.

That's why I like the option for a 1/6 chance for it to work. It takes all of those random factors and allows a PC to be able to actually make an effect outside of fighting.

I mean have any of y'all not been talked into or out of something before?

But Diplomacy isn't just a random chance. Sure, you might do something stupid while talking or inadvertently say the wrong thing, but that's based on the content of the player's post. Of course I've been talked out of something before, but I wouldn't change my mind if the other argument didn't make sense, I probably wouldn't change my mind if the other decision was strongly against one of my established values (which I certainly hope aren't random), and I definitely wouldn't change my mind regardless of the implications of the other choice just because a d6 decreed that I should.

[CMP]

Just in 88 (& not being ugly to Zeph), but it seems Diplomacy has not worked once. Not with Mint, not with the Prince, and not with the current situation. I understand having to follow a story line, but it would be nice to know when Diplomacy/Intimidation is a viable option instead of wasting time, especially with players in different time zones.

How would you define it as working?

[Brickdoctor]

Just in 88 (& not being ugly to Zeph), but it seems Diplomacy has not worked once. Not with Mint, not with the Prince, and not with the current situation.

So the NPCs in that quest just aren't as willing to change their minds as other NPCs. I'm not saying that QMs shouldn't sometimes throw in an opportunity for Diplomacy to work, nor am I saying that Zeph is or isn't right, but talking to animals doesn't always work, there aren't always things to track, magic can't always move an obstacle, healing an ill or wounded NPC you just met doesn't always work, and so on and so forth.

I understand having to follow a story line, but it would be nice to know when Diplomacy/Intimidation is a viable option instead of wasting time, especially with players in different time zones.

The game wouldn't be much fun if you always knew which skill had to be used to solve something.

[Sandy]

Several job traits are there to give certain job classes an edge when it comes to roleplaying. Like Doc and some others said, the situations where the skills are useful vary greatly, so making them work randomly just isn't sensible.

QMs should really take these traits into consideration when someone uses them, but there's always that little leeway that must be there for the sake of the plot. Giving players several options to approach their goal is of course something every quest should include, in my opinion.

[Chromeknight]

As Zeph has acknowledged in thread, the issue isn't whether it actually works but whether it is shown to work. But that's sorted, so no worries.