Heroica RPG Rules & FAQ

[Flipz]

WBD, correct me if I'm wrong, but won't the Dual Staff be just as dangerous (if not worse) anyway? I don't really see how dual healing is just as bad, since it only does half as much damage as the staff.

(Unless you're talking about being immune to damage and specials, but I've already said offensive healing should carry risk while defensive/protective healing should not as I've already said--it's how I'd run it, anyway.)

Edited July 28, 2014 by Flipz

[Waterbrick Down]

I was referring to Alpha and Omega in the hands of Pretzel. Being able to deal out duel healing without any risk of damage would only make things more challenging.

[Flipz]

Like I said, healing as an attack should carry the risk of rolling Damage and Special Damage, while healing to legitimately save someone's life should not.

[Cutcobra]

Nothing, of course. Isn't that kinda obvious?

Well, that's just sad. Can't I atleast steal something?!?

[Flipz]

Sometimes I wonder if a Mage's primary gem should be included in their Equipment. Of course, I also wonder if maybe switching gems would then have to take a turn, and then wonder if that wouldn't just nullify the usefulness of Mages.

[Sandy]

Like I said, healing as an attack should carry the risk of rolling Damage and Special Damage, while healing to legitimately save someone's life should not.

Enemy is still an enemy. Even if you "benevolently" try to heal one, they will still want to see your guts spilled on the ground.

Very well, I will add it to the FAQ that healing an enemy makes heroes susceptiple to DAMAGE and SPECIAL DAMAGE.

[Palathadric]

I was referring to Alpha and Omega in the hands of Pretzel. Being able to deal out duel healing without any risk of damage would only make things more challenging.

Oh, right! Sorry, I don't know what I was reading before.

[StickFig]

Like I said, healing as an attack should carry the risk of rolling Damage and Special Damage, while healing to legitimately save someone's life should not.

Enemy is still an enemy. Even if you "benevolently" try to heal one, they will still want to see your guts spilled on the ground.

Rats, Sandy, you beat me to it.

Very well, I will add it to the FAQ that healing an enemy makes heroes susceptiple to DAMAGE and SPECIAL DAMAGE.

This is a good change.

[Palathadric]

This is a good change.

I guess I can live with it.

[Sandy]

The enemy type rule page has been updated a bit. I didn't realize how confusing and cluttered it must have been until now.

[CMP]

OoC: Sorry to butt in on the discussion, but Thalion's weapon is a "Dual Cast/Heal" weapon, not "Dual Strike". So it allows casting spells and healing on two targets.

Sleight of Hand is considered a magical attack because it uses ether. In Quest#93, I played it so that Thalion could confuse both targets with the same weapon.

Now I'm kind of lost. Alpha and Omega works on spells and heals. If Sleight of Hand is considered a spell despite the fact that it doesn't deal any damage, would moves like Satisfy, Dragon Aid, and Pessimism be susceptible to dual-striking weapons?

[Zepher]

I think the fact that it uses ether makes it a spell.

[Sandy]

Now I'm kind of lost. Alpha and Omega works on spells and heals. If Sleight of Hand is considered a spell despite the fact that it doesn't deal any damage, would moves like Satisfy, Dragon Aid, and Pessimism be susceptible to dual-striking weapons?

I see your point. Satisfy and Pessimism should be susceptible to Dual Strike, since the hero has two targets. Dragon Aid isn't, because it's not the hero who attacks but the dragon pet.

Remember that single-target Shield-skills are also affected by Dual Strike. It's the same deal.

I guess I have to add this to the FAQ to make it clear.

Thinking about it more, it's not clear that the hero is using their weapon with these aforementioned skills. Now I'm confused.

Any skills that use ether are considered magic, that should be clear, anyway.

[JimBee]

This is tricky, but I would say in the case of Sleight of Hand with the dual spell/heal weapons, both the confused effect and jinxed effect count only for the target enemy (primary target). The class sheet for Sorceror states that Sleight of Hand affects the target, where Spell and Greater Spell are not specified. Plus the weapons are Dual Spell, not Dual Magic.

[Sandy]

This is tricky, but I would say in the case of Sleight of Hand with the dual spell/heal weapons, both the confused effect and jinxed effect count only for the target enemy (primary target). The class sheet for Sorceror states that Sleight of Hand affects the target, where Spell and Greater Spell are not specified. Plus the weapons are Dual Spell, not Dual Magic.

Perhaps that's the simplest solution...

[-obelix-]

I think the fact that it uses ether makes it a spell.

I have to agree with Zepher, using the same reasoning, that the fact that Ether is used makes it a cast spell (not a pure elemental/damage dealing spell, but both a physical attack and a spell - a cantrip with physical damage of 0, which steals gold and adds the effect of Confusion to the enemy).

[CMP]

This is tricky, but I would say in the case of Sleight of Hand with the dual spell/heal weapons, both the confused effect and jinxed effect count only for the target enemy (primary target). The class sheet for Sorceror states that Sleight of Hand affects the target, where Spell and Greater Spell are not specified. Plus the weapons are Dual Spell, not Dual Magic.

That's exactly how I thought it worked.

[Flipz]

Eh, Ether=Spell is simpler and easier to remember.

[CMP]

Eh, Ether=Spell is simpler and easier to remember.

Not really, since that doesn't apply to non-magical classes. I've always treated it as when one outright deals damage, THEN the roll is considered an attack, or a spell, or when they restore health it's considered a heal.

This makes it easy to reason that moves like Steal, Posion, Satisfy, etc, aren't attacks and don't have weapon effects (like dual-strike weapons) apply, unless specifically stated otherwise. I use the exact same reasoning for mages' spells. If it doesn't deal damage, weapon effects aren't applied.

That's why Grim Reaper doesn't deal weapon effects, as an example.

Same reasoning for Internal Conflict. I'm not dealing damage, I'm halving the health of the enemy.

Edited July 30, 2014 by CallMePie

[Flipz]

Not really, since that doesn't apply to non-magical classes. I've always treated it as when one outright deals damage, THEN the roll is considered an attack, or a spell, or when they restore health it's considered a heal.

This makes it easy to reason that moves like Steal, Posion, Satisfy, etc, aren't attacks and don't have weapon effects (like dual-strike weapons) apply, unless specifically stated otherwise. I use the exact same reasoning for mages' spells. If it doesn't deal damage, weapon effects aren't applied.

That's why Grim Reaper doesn't deal weapon effects, as an example.

Same reasoning for Internal Conflict. I'm not dealing damage, I'm halving the health of the enemy.

Nono, normal dual-strike doesn't affect spells, because spells don't usually transmit weapon effects; for the purposes of Alpha and Omega and other Artifacts that affect spells, however, the easy definition is "class roll that costs Ether=spell", with healing as an obvious and easy exception.

[CMP]

Nono, normal dual-strike doesn't affect spells, because spells don't usually transmit weapon effects; for the purposes of Alpha and Omega and other Artifacts that affect spells, however, the easy definition is "class roll that costs Ether=spell", with healing as an obvious and easy exception.

That's what I'm arguing. I consider dealing damage to be the definition of physical attacks and spells. My intention with Alpha and Omega was to provide a mage's analogue to dual-strike.

If an Evoker is using Alpha and Omega they don't get to summon two damn spirits because it costs ether.

[Flipz]

Why not? It costs extra Ether for each attack (2 Ether for dual spellcasting + 1 Ether for first spirit + 1 Ether for second spirit = 4 Ether per Round, assuming the user isn't hastened), and it would actually be interesting to see more than one spirit out at once.

Spellcasting is different than physical attacks. It comes at a cost, regardless of whether it does damage. Letting it affect more targets at a greater Ether cost seems perfectly fair--not to mention it being wasted if the user decides to double-attack something (I.E. Sleight of Hand would double-cast on the same target, but it'd be 2 Ether for the exact same Confused-effect).

[CMP]

Why not? It costs extra Ether for each attack (2 Ether for dual spellcasting + 1 Ether for first spirit + 1 Ether for second spirit = 4 Ether per Round, assuming the user isn't hastened), and it would actually be interesting to see more than one spirit out at once.

Spellcasting is different than physical attacks. It comes at a cost, regardless of whether it does damage. Letting it affect more targets at a greater Ether cost seems perfectly fair--not to mention it being wasted if the user decides to double-attack something (I.E. Sleight of Hand would double-cast on the same target, but it'd be 2 Ether for the exact same Confused-effect).

There's not a base cost for dual spells or healing. You lose 1 ether for each individual hit/heal, basically.

You don't lose ether if you take damage or special damage. That isn't how I intended the item to work.

On an almost unrelated note...

From the rules topic: 'Stunned - The enemy misses on the next DAMAGE or SPECIAL DAMAGE rolled for it. If nobody targets it, the enemy loses its Free Hit.' As far as I know it lasts until one of these conditions is fulfilled nowadays.

Is this right, Sandy?

Edited July 31, 2014 by CallMePie

[Flipz]

Of course there's a base cost for every spell, it's 1 Ether. If you use all your Ether up quickly at the start of the fight, you'll have none left to cast with later on--melee dual-strike weapons don't come with a shot limit. Moreover, there's no need for someone to lose Ether on a Damage or Special Damage roll because they're losing health instead.

Besides, it just makes sense for the definition of a spell to be a magical effect cast from the user's Ether. Scrolls are focused through the Scroll itself rather than the weapon, so it makes sense that those wouldn't be dual-cast, but things like Sleight of Hand and Magic Counter are cast from memory through the user's weapon just like spells are, so it makes sense for those to be affected by dual spellcasting. Yes, that would mean that an Evoker could potentially summon two spirits on a SHIELD, but again, why is that a bad thing? Unintended, sure, but "unintended" is not a synonym for "bad".

[Sandy]

Is this right, Sandy?

It has been that way for years now. How have you missed it?

The logic behind it is that the enemy is stunned until it gets a chance to act. Then, instead of acting, it recovers from stunned.

Unintended, sure, but "unintended" is not a synonym for "bad".

There-in lies the problem. All these "unintended" prepercussions are exactly what cause confusion. Healing Staff was meant to be a simple "heal instead of damage", but it opened a whole can of worms. Dual Strike weapons are causing the same issue - there's constantly new contradictions and unclarity rising from their use.

That's why I aim to keep things as simple as possible. Taking every single different scenario into consideration when creating a new mechanic is just impossible, that's why we need these rule clarifications all the time.