Heroica RPG Rules & FAQ

[Waterbrick Down]

That is practically a double nerf to Rogues, the second being incredibly severe - since some people think it is fine now, I don't think that slamming a class with two major nerfs at once isn't a good idea.

Besdies, Nerf 1 would still get QMs to drop gold. \

I agree, I think one nerf is enough to limit the disparity. I'm fine with a rogue making 2-4x as much as I do in a quest, but when it's as much as 10x, it ends up creating a very large disparity in actual stats such as SP and WP and immunities between rogues and other classes, making them difficult to balance for as well as negating some of the advantages of other classes. Edited July 8, 2013 by Waterbrick Down

[Myrddyn]

What about:

Only enemies with gold as a drop

AND

Only steals gold from each target equal to PC's level

I also think we should start with just one of those, and perhaps add the other later if necessary.

Rogues have been raking in plenty more money than the rest of use for a while now, so I don't think, if Endgames 2nd rule is implemented, waiting a few more months will make a huge difference.

[Palathadric]

That is practically a double nerf to Rogues, the second being incredibly severe - since some people think it is fine now, I don't think that slamming a class with two major nerfs at once isn't a good idea.

Two negatives equal a positive, so you think it is a good idea to slam them with the two nerfs.

Yes, I do agree that it would be a bit much.

Yes, it is.

I guess it's fine, but Sandy did say it should be realistic:

Drops

: This indicates the amount of gold and items that the enemy drops after the battle. Consider if the enemy could realistically carry said items, for example most beasts wouldn’t carry gold.

[swils]

Quote-fest:

What if we take an approach that doesn't have the potential to completely gimp a rogue's side-income if a quest has no or very few humanoids (or monsters that would make sense to have gold on their persons, if we go that route).

Rogues steal an amount equal to each enemy target's level, up to but not exceeding their own level

or even steal an amount from each targeted equal to their own level.

(snip)

I'd agree, it still doesn't make sense to steal gold from a rat or a beggar, but there's plenty of stuff that doesn't make sense, as has been mentioned, so why start here?

What about:

Only enemies with gold as a drop

AND

Only steals gold from each target equal to PC's level

Makes sense in both realistic terms and RPG terms. You can only steal gold from those who have it, and you get better at what you do the more experience you have. Also, this may get QMs to drop more gold for the non-thieving classes.

As far as the Overkill Gloves go; that was just not a well thought out drop. It should probably be nerfed. As much as I hate to say that. Sorry Flipz.

That is practically a double nerf to Rogues, the second being incredibly severe - since some people think it is fine now, I don't think that slamming a class with two major nerfs at once isn't a good idea.

Besdies, Nerf 1 would still get QMs to drop gold. \

If we really have to change it, equal-to-PC-level is the best first step. Leave it at that. No adjustments for realism, no anything else. Just make it so that a level X rogue will steal X gold from his target on a steal. An X level Raider will steal X gold from each target on a Ravage, etc. I know that the QM-discretion, gold-from-gold-dropping-enemies, etc, all will definitely change/reduce rogue income, but that's such a huge change. Baby steps. See if a smaller adjustment works first. If not, then consider the big ones.

If QMs should be dropping more gold and consumables, then they should do that. It shouldn't be out of special consideration for any given class.

[JimBee]

Anyone else a teensy bit annoyed that high defense and counterstrikes gloves have allowed for avoiding the toughest enemies altogether and get automatic wins? I won't avoid saying that Hoke in the Fields of Glory has triggered this realization for me, but he's not the only one. And I certainly don't blame you, MDM, for using a strategy available to you, but doesn't it say something about balance? Just throwing this out there.

[Brickdoctor]

No, I love it.

[CMP]

No, I love it.

He means as a QM.

Yes, it annoys me, but it's already been nerfed once. Some Defense on the tougher enemies can help prevent it, as most Counterstriking strategies involve being in the back row, and the halved damage would be pretty much useless against them. A taste of their own medicine, so to speak.

[Endgame]

What happens when a counterstriking enemy counterstrikes a counterstriking hero?

[CMP]

What happens when a counterstriking enemy counterstrikes a counterstriking hero?

A paradox, of course. (Instant death to all combatants.)

[Endgame]

They'd probably just punch eachother until one drops dead.

[Kintobor]

What happens when a counterstriking enemy counterstrikes a counterstriking hero?

It's like casting Rope on a Bag of Holding. You just don't do it. You don't know why, but you know the consequences will be horrifically disturbing, and will most likely implode the universe.

[joeshmoe554]

Heroes only counter free hits so the hero would counter the free hit, and the enemy would counter the hero's counter. I believe this happened in a quest not that long ago.

[Zepher]

Yes, it annoys me, but it's already been nerfed once. Some Defense on the tougher enemies can help prevent it, as most Counterstriking strategies involve being in the back row, and the halved damage would be pretty much useless against them. A taste of their own medicine, so to speak.

SP and back-row fighting stop counterstriking cold. It's probably a little tougher in the fields where you can't design your own enemies.

[joeshmoe554]

There will always be strategies that will make a party almost invincible. Buffing every member (or 80% of the members) with the Lucky effect can do wonders for making a fight a breeze since the odds of anyone taking damage or a special effect become fairly unlikely.

[Sandy]

Alright, time to put a cap on the gold-gaining discussion. I've read every single post in this topic and listened to everyone's opinions, but my final verdict is this:

From this moment on, the heroes with following abilities will only gain gold from enemies that already carry gold as drops. The gold will not be reduced from the drops, nor will the amount of gold be changed to what the skill originally described.

Mug (Rogue)

Gold Reaper (Assassin)

Ravage (Raider)

Steal (Raider & Beast Warrior) - Will be changed.

Magnetic Mojo (Sorcerer) - Will be buffed otherwise.

Dirty Fighting (Infiltrator)

These following abilities and items will not be changed:

Chrysopoeia (Alchemist)

Money Maker (Harlot)

Veni Vidi Vici (Paragon)

Overkill Gloves (item)

There will be no earning caps or banking systems for now.

Thank you for your contributions to this discussion, it was really fruitful!

[CorneliusMurdock]

As someone with decent SP and counterstrike gloves, I can tell you JimB that they aren't exactly gamebreaking on a normal build. I still normally take damage if I want to give some.

Really, I think the gloves are to the Paladin class what the Amulet is to the Witch. Makes the class play better (since we only hit the enemy a third of the time by attacking) but isn't a magic solution to overcoming anything.

[Brickdoctor]

As someone with decent SP and counterstrike gloves, I can tell you JimB that they aren't exactly gamebreaking on a normal build. I still normally take damage if I want to give some.

I think the issue in this case is that it's not a normal build; it's a Counterstriking Mystic Knight with above-average-and-climbing SP. But that's supposed to be the strength of the Mystic Knight, so while it might be more gamebreaking than a Counterstriking Paladin, it's completely fair and not overpowered in my opinion. We've already made multiple Free Hits harder to tank.

[Scorpiox]

Alright, time to put a cap on the gold-gaining discussion. I've read every single post in this topic and listened to everyone's opinions, but my final verdict is this:

From this moment on, the heroes with following abilities will only gain gold from enemies that already carry gold as drops. The gold will not be reduced from the drops, nor will the amount of gold be changed to what the skill originally described.

That's a good decision, I thoroughly support it. Hopefully this will encourage QMs to drop gold for non-rogue classes as well.

[Flare]

That's a good decision, I thoroughly support it. Hopefully this will encourage QMs to drop gold for non-rogue classes as well.

Agreed

[Palathadric]

As someone with decent SP and counterstrike gloves, I can tell you JimB that they aren't exactly gamebreaking on a normal build. I still normally take damage if I want to give some.

Really, I think the gloves are to the Paladin class what the Amulet is to the Witch. Makes the class play better (since we only hit the enemy a third of the time by attacking) but isn't a magic solution to overcoming anything.

Besides, poor Cronk probably deals more damage through counter-striking in a battle than he does through actual fighting.

[swils]

So, that's that. Glad I'm switching to Dragoon soon. *shrug*

[KotZ]

I like the outcome of this, Sandy.

[Tachyon]

Luckily at level 30, I can switch to Winged Warrior.

[Capt.JohnPaul]

Good ruling Sandy.

[Tachyon]

Just realised how much of a prick I could be by only targeting enemies with gold on them.