Transformers

[Satellite Jack]

Who would you guys recommend: Voyager Starscream or Voyager The Fallen?

[HumanPackMule]

Who would you guys recommend: Voyager Starscream or Voyager The Fallen?

From the reviews I've watched on Youtube, Starscream is by far better(they're making a Leader class Starscream later this year).

[optimus-convoy]

This is one thing I've never understood among the TF fan base. It seems after seeing the DK, many TF Fans (especially G1 fan boys) want,or feel the movie should have had this deep, meaningful plot and storyline, when the subject material has lacked any of this. I'm sorry, but i have never seen a good, non- cheesy plot/storyline in any of the TF series. Not from G1, Armada, beastwars, and especially not Energon. So i don't know why many felt this should have broken the mold so to speak.

Personally,i liked all the humor and was fine with all the sexual references, (although i still think they did help play key roles in the plot and story) but i can see where some might have found it a bit over the top.

TF should always be about megablocks kicking robots and action. They are in a war after all.

I think much of this sentiment stems from the tone of many of the comics which, in comparison to the cartoons, usually maintained a more mature storyline. This mainly applies to G1, but it was also apparent in Armada/Energon. As for probably the best of the cartoon shows, (Beast Wars/Machines, Animated) I won't deny they've had their goofball moments, but all were able to maintain a serious enough overarching plot with character development that didn't confuse the kids, and kept the older fans interested.

As for ROTF, I went in keeping my expectations fairly low, because I knew what to expect. While it was fun, (I actually enjoyed it more than the first.) more often than not, I felt it used explosions poor humor, and annoying as hell characters to overshadow some of the more interesting aspects of the movie continuity. This also seemed to affect a problem I had with the first movie, which was that I didn't even get a feel for many of the Transformers individually. I thought this would be less of a problem seeing as they narrowed down the human-based sub-plots, but again, at least more than half of the Autobots and Decepticons had next to no speaking lines, or even had their name mentioned at all. (I'm looking at you Jolt. You giant plot-device with no screen time... )

Exactly. It shouldn't be some deep, moving film with a hard-core story line that is artsy. It should be a movie with big explosions and a fun plot.

I think it's just that after Comic/Toy based action movies such as Iron Man and the Dark Knight, the hardcore set's standards for these types of movies has been raised, and many TF fans (including me) want some amount of respectability toward their franchise of choice. (Soulless cash cow doesn't count.) Even I'll agree Transformers doesn't need a deep, artsy storyline, but I'd like to think it's capable of producing a film with a fair balance of action and development at least on par with Iron Man.

...just my two cents.

[5150 Lego]

I think it's just that after Comic/Toy based action movies such as Iron Man and the Dark Knight, the hardcore set's standards for these types of movies has been raised, and many TF fans (including me) want some amount of respectability toward their franchise of choice. (Soulless cash cow doesn't count.) Even I'll agree Transformers doesn't need a deep, artsy storyline, but I'd like to think it's capable of producing a film with a fair balance of action and development at least on par with Iron Man.

...just my two cents.

While i understand your point of view, TDK and Iron Man are completly different in terms of story and characters comparared to TF. Also, there subject material isn't nealry as cheezy as TF based stories were. And that in itself is a big problem that i feel many "hard core fans" have yet to,or will not exept. I also don't understand the whole "respectability" aurgument. Adding a couple jokes and showing devestaors balls does no constitie disrespect. (at least IMO) The story in both TF1 and ROTF were both well rounded and easiy ehough to follow. Yes, character development lacked, and at this point still needs to be worked on. But it did get better with ROTF.

While i agree that that Animated and Beast wars are above expectations for animated series, they still would be hard to bring to life on the big screen. Example..

While I thought giving the Constructicons a "New York feel" with there accents and overall characterization, i don't see this working on the big screen. Could you imagine all crap Micheal Bay would have gotten if he did this? I could imagine TF forums around the world crashing.

[Biotoakid]

I found a cool prototype picture of Leader Starscream.

[Satellite Jack]

I found a cool prototype picture of Leader Starscream.

Oh my.....I just might have to ditch the Voyager idea and save up....

[Biotoakid]

Oh my.....I just might have to ditch the Voyager idea and save up....

I only wish I knew what the vehicle mode looked like...

[5150 Lego]

I only wish I knew what the vehicle mode looked like...

Leader class figures ussualy have very good detail and you can hardly tell there there a robot. My guess is Starscream is going to be the same.

[Satellite Jack]

Leader class figures ussualy have very good detail and you can hardly tell there there a robot. My guess is Starscream is going to be the same.

Exactly. It's usually whether or not there robot mode is good (jetfire ). And Starscream seems great in that department.

[M'Kyuun]

I think much of this sentiment stems from the tone of many of the comics which, in comparison to the cartoons, usually maintained a more mature storyline. This mainly applies to G1, but it was also apparent in Armada/Energon. As for probably the best of the cartoon shows, (Beast Wars/Machines, Animated) I won't deny they've had their goofball moments, but all were able to maintain a serious enough overarching plot with character development that didn't confuse the kids, and kept the older fans interested.

As for ROTF, I went in keeping my expectations fairly low, because I knew what to expect. While it was fun, (I actually enjoyed it more than the first.) more often than not, I felt it used explosions poor humor, and annoying as hell characters to overshadow some of the more interesting aspects of the movie continuity. This also seemed to affect a problem I had with the first movie, which was that I didn't even get a feel for many of the Transformers individually. I thought this would be less of a problem seeing as they narrowed down the human-based sub-plots, but again, at least more than half of the Autobots and Decepticons had next to no speaking lines, or even had their name mentioned at all. (I'm looking at you Jolt. You giant plot-device with no screen time... )

I think it's just that after Comic/Toy based action movies such as Iron Man and the Dark Knight, the hardcore set's standards for these types of movies has been raised, and many TF fans (including me) want some amount of respectability toward their franchise of choice. (Soulless cash cow doesn't count.) Even I'll agree Transformers doesn't need a deep, artsy storyline, but I'd like to think it's capable of producing a film with a fair balance of action and development at least on par with Iron Man.

...just my two cents.

I've only seen the first, and I've eschewed the second having seen or read about the movie, just to get that out of the way. I didn't like the first movie, and i can make a fair assumption I'll not like the second, either.

To argue that Transformers is cheesy can be said about nearly any sci-fi property. However, there have been a host of well written sci-fi movies dealing with far out subjects. I think Transformers had the potential to be a serious, interesting film, rather than a child-centric bawdy mess with little screen-time devoted to its title characters. I still hold out hope that another director, one with serious interest in Transformers and its various incarnations and history, will take the franchise in a different direction once Michael Bay decides he's had enough.

Beast Wars was a really well done show. I talked my reluctant wife into watching it, and she loved it. Even Animated was much more enjoyable to watch than Bay's movie, IMO. I'm a bit perplexed that people enjoy his brand of humor...it's groan-worthy at best. Anyway, I can understand that people don't want over complex story lines and such in a two hour movie...I get that. Complexity works better in a series, or in a book where the complexity can be laid out in an expository format. But, on the other hand, when an animated show has more maturity, better writing, and far better character development that a $100 million plus movie, then something's wrong. I liked the beginning of of the first movie; had Bay maintained that tone and perhaps made our protaganist a young soldier witnessing the events and, in voiceover, given account of the movie's events through his eyes, the movie could have taken itself and its characters more seriously, but still with wit and smart humor. Shia's frenetic delivery and ridiculous lines along with Sector 7, and the pointless hacker subplot, and an unfunny Bernie Mac to boot, just made the whole thing far less than its potential suggested. I reject the notion that any sci-fi topic needs to be written immaturely, or that its characters be treated like novelty props simply because it originated as a cartoon. Iron man also came from a comic, but it was handled well, I thought. Star Trek, which has such potential to become camp, has been written to be engaging and thought provoking while still delivering some action, as well as "Alien", and on and on. Prior to the live action movies, there had been several commercials and self-made "transformer" videos proving the concept could be done realistically and believably, moreover without the rather unrealistic million-shifting-parts aesthetic employed. As a mechanic, I have to ask what moves all those pieces, as every part would have to have linkage of some kind to transition the configuration. Nano-tech is such a cop-out, and Bay's creations are more magical than mechanical. Had the characters and their toys been designed more in sync, with a defined set transformation sequence, I think the characters would have been far more believable. Well, that and if they didn't all turn into super stylish cars. After all, their alt is supposed to be a disguise to keep them from being noticed. I could continue in this vein, but I won't. I'm just simply exasperated by apologists for Bay's movie decrying any criticism of its immaturity and extreme simplicity by stating it's not supposed to be Shakespeare, or some such over exaggerated statement. Not even the fans want it to be that convoluted and involved; however, a little reverence toward the subject matter, plot, dialog, and audience would go a long way towards making this a much better movie that a lot more fans, as well as non-fans, would find much more appealing than robo-chicks with long tongues and robots with testicles.

[5150 Lego]

I've only seen the first, and I've eschewed the second having seen or read about the movie, just to get that out of the way. I didn't like the first movie, and i can make a fair assumption I'll not like the second, either.

To argue that Transformers is cheesy can be said about nearly any sci-fi property. However, there have been a host of well written sci-fi movies dealing with far out subjects. I think Transformers had the potential to be a serious, interesting film, rather than a child-centric bawdy mess with little screen-time devoted to its title characters. I still hold out hope that another director, one with serious interest in Transformers and its various incarnations and history, will take the franchise in a different direction once Michael Bay decides he's had enough.

Not true. While other Sci Fi shows could be considered camp, TF has taken it to a whole new level throughout its 25yr existence. As far as TF be a serious "film", i have to say I'm seriously glad they didn't go this route. (no pun intended). While TF has always been campy in its own right, it has always been an escape from the real world. This movie has no business being "film",but an enjoyable popcorn action flick.

I will agree that more time should have gone to the title characters. Move Jetfire was my favorite,mainly due to the time he was given on screen. His personality was hilarious, and over all demeanour was different than any other TF on screen. I am left to wonder what could have been with Sideways, Jolt, and even the constructicons if they were given similar treatment.

Beast Wars was a really well done show. I talked my reluctant wife into watching it, and she loved it. Even Animated was much more enjoyable to watch than Bay's movie, IMO. I'm a bit perplexed that people enjoy his brand of humor...it's groan-worthy at best. Anyway, I can understand that people don't want over complex story lines and such in a two hour movie...I get that. Complexity works better in a series, or in a book where the complexity can be laid out in an expository format. But, on the other hand, when an animated show has more maturity, better writing, and far better character development that a $100 million plus movie, then some thing's wrong.

One thing i find funny with TF fans, is that when it comes to well writen TF stories, they refer to one series, and one series only. BeastWars. BW never appealed to me much because for me,TF will always be Robots transforming into vehicles. Not animals (i still shutter at the thought of "Optimus Primal" Lame). Though i must admit i did watch a little as a kid. Maybe it was the stories that caught my attention. Or maybe it was the animation. Regardless, the fact that fans fall back to the Beastwars/Machines series as the only source of good writing, kinda proves how lacking the rest of the franchise really is in terms of story and plot. Its not easy to make an depth plot and story when the source material lacks of any of this. Animated was a great series. But it never would have worked for a big screen.

I liked the beginning of of the first movie; had Bay maintained that tone and perhaps made our protaganist a young soldier witnessing the events and, in voiceover, given account of the movie's events through his eyes, the movie could have taken itself and its characters more seriously, but still with wit and smart humor. Shia's frenetic delivery and ridiculous lines along with Sector 7, and the pointless hacker subplot, and an unfunny Bernie Mac to boot, just made the whole thing far less than its potential suggested.

That could have worked. But considering that many fans and critics alike are already labeling the movies as being Military propaganda, i could only imagine how your plot would have added to that line of thinking. Just one more thing for "The fans" to female canine about.

I reject the notion that any sci-fi topic needs to be written immaturely, or that its characters be treated like novelty props simply because it originated as a cartoon. Iron man also came from a comic, but it was handled well, I thought. Star Trek, which has such potential to become camp, has been written to be engaging and thought provoking while still delivering some action, as well as "Alien", and on and on.

Ironman, for the most part has always had a more mature setting and the camp was a minimal if any at all. Stark Trek had always had a serious tone to it, well written stories, and for the most part, was what the series was about. The source material was decent to begin with.(that's not to say that some Trekkies didn't find something to female canine about why they felt it was bad about JJ Abrams movie)

And Alien...... Sorry man. You can't compare the Alien franchise to TF. While they were both Sci Fi, that all the similarities they shared. Different setting, much darker tone, different audience all together.

Prior to the live action movies, there had been several commercials and self-made "transformer" videos proving the concept could be done realistically and believably, moreover without the rather unrealistic million-shifting-parts aesthetic employed. As a mechanic, I have to ask what moves all those pieces, as every part would have to have linkage of some kind to transition the configuration. Nano-tech is such a cop-out, and Bay's creations are more magical than mechanical. Had the characters and their toys been designed more in sync, with a defined set transformation sequence, I think the characters would have been far more believable.

Seen many of those videos. Most were poorly done, and were nothing but updated blocky images. They would not have passed for aceptable movieverse bots, but rather amatuer makeshift reditions, cause well.... They were done by amatuers. This was a chance for animators to break the mold and give us somthing new and exciting. Somthing that may of the youtube animators lacked. They might have passed for a b rate movie, but would have been laughed at on the big screen. This may sound harsh, but considering the technology that's available today, its the animators duty to give us the most detailed realistic bots that we've ever seen. I do believe they accomplished this.

As a mechanic, I have to ask what moves all those pieces, as every part would have to have linkage of some kind to transition the configuration.

I understand were your coming from with this. As i car guy and mechanic myself i sometimes kringe when i watch movies such as the fast and Furious, Redline, and any other scene with car chases or tech discussions regarding them. I learned along time ago, that while these movies are made to appeal to enthusiast, there in no way shape or form made for them. Same goes with TF. These movies, and others like them are not made for the fan base. There made for the general public. The moving parts, intricate designs and such all are made to make the average movie goer go..

"Wow!! That was cool!" not..

"Dude, Optimus Primes gas tank shifted differently in this scene! Did you catch that?"

Someone once told me that Tyrese Gibson's role of "Epps"in the movie was fairly pointless. While i would agree, he does have a star factor and a fan base of his own that helps bring in the numbers. Like it or not, money talks.

Either way i still have to disagree that the transformation sequences defined an uniformed throughout the movie. Prime is great example of this. From the show of him in the first movie transforming on the freeway, to when he transforms in the hanger of the 2ND movie. All uniformed. And while not every scene might have been exactly perfect, the same could be said for an series in the TF universe. There's no reason that you should be nit picking the movie for this.

Well, that and if they didn't all turn into super stylish cars. After all, their alt is supposed to be a disguise to keep them from being noticed.

Ironhide as a minivan, or Topkick truck? What do you think the majority would have preferred? Or should i say, what would kids have preferred? And again, this could be said of any TF series. Prime as a fire engine with wings and giant cannons in the Cybertron series? Not very undercover if you ask me. And what about Jazz as a red/white/blue Porsche? Like it or not, flashy sells.

I could continue in this vein, but I won't. I'm just simply exasperated by apologists for Bay's movie decrying any criticism of its immaturity and extreme simplicity by stating it's not supposed to be Shakespeare, or some such over exaggerated statement. Not even the fans want it to be that convoluted and involved; however, a little reverence toward the subject matter, plot, dialog, and audience would go a long way towards making this a much better movie that a lot more fans, as well as non-fans, would find much more appealing than robo-chicks with long tongues and robots with testicles.

Considering this movie is breaking records left and right, and every person i talk describe this movie as one of the best action movies they've seen in recent memory, I'd have to say it appealed to them just fine. Its already made over $800 million world wide and at this pace, will easily break a billion. Like it or not, the people have spoken.

That's not to say that there isn't room for improvement. Hopefully the writers will take into consideration some of the criticism this movie has gotten and make improvements for the 3rd movie. I felt that they did listen and make improvements for the second, so i see no reason why they wouldn't do so for the 3rd installment.

[M'Kyuun]

One thing i find funny with TF fans, is that when it comes to well writen TF stories, they refer to one series, and one series only. BeastWars. BW never appealed to me much because for me,TF will always be Robots transforming into vehicles. Not animals (i still shutter at the thought of "Optimus Primal" Lame). Though i must admit i did watch a little as a kid. Maybe it was the stories that caught my attention. Or maybe it was the animation. Regardless, the fact that fans fall back to the Beastwars/Machines series as the only source of good writing, kinda proves how lacking the rest of the franchise really is in terms of story and plot. Its not easy to make an depth plot and story when the source material lacks of any of this. Animated was a great series. But it never would have worked for a big screen.

Beast Wars is arguably some of the better written of the Transformers series. However, I still consider the 3 part opening for the original series , as well as several other eps in the first season (the first Skyfire episode comes to mind) to be pretty well written, despite the animation gaffs and spots of cheese. Compared to its 80's counterparts, these can be forgiven, I think. It had a more serious tone than Bay's movie, and, though I generally can't stand kids in a cartoon, Spike was portrayed as a mature young adult working with his father on an oil rig prior to joining with the Autobots. Thereafter, his insights framed a human point of view of Prime and his gang. Even at 13 , i loved the more serious tone of this show compared to others at the time. I still love the first season, as it maintained a fairly serious tone throughout. Second season and beyond got silly, and I stopped watching the show. I didn't start watching Transformers again until BW, and of course, I was upset that they were animals instead of vehicles, esp since I'm a mecha junkie. That said, the writing and the great voice actors brought the show to life for me and I became a fan.

That could have worked. But considering that many fans and critics alike are already labeling the movies as being Military propaganda, i could only imagine how your plot would have added to that line of thinking. Just one more thing for "The fans" to female canine about.

What's wrong with a movie like this being military centric? Let them whine, I say. It's a far more realistic scenario to expect that our government would want to keep tabs on these Autobot aliens; their very dualistic nature would breed all sorts of miscontent and distrust, and it's highly plausible our government would want them shadowed or heavily involved with the military to keep tabs on them and to assist them if need be against the Decepticons. There would always be a looming fear that the bots would turn on us as a country, or as a species. To me there's a great movie in this line of thinking..serious, suspenseful, and dark. I think Bay could have made a movie like this; he has a good relationship with the military, and seems to admire and respect them. Unfortunately, at least to me, his movie looks like a car commercial interspersed with tidbits of overly-exaggerated inane, awkward, frenetic adolescence, or pointless subplots featuring cheesiness beyond laughability. I'm not a Mike Bay hater; I've seen "The Rock" and "Armageddon", both of which had cheese, but were more subtle with the humor, more serious in tone, and actually quite enjoyable. I didn't like his "boy and his car" approach in the least. It sounded terrible to me when it was first announced, and I felt vindicated when I finally watched it. I thought it was terrible, Shia's character annoying, the hackers unnecessary, and Sector 7 to be utterly detestable.

Ironman, for the most part has always had a more mature setting and the camp was a minimal if any at all. Stark Trek had always had a serious tone to it, well written stories, and for the most part, was what the series was about. The source material was decent to begin with.(that's not to say that some Trekkies didn't find something to female canine about why they felt it was bad about JJ Abrams movie)

And Alien...... Sorry man. You can't compare the Alien franchise to TF. While they were both Sci Fi, that all the similarities they shared. Different setting, much darker tone, different audience all together.

Ah, but I can compare "Alien" to something like this. Until "Alien", alien movies were B-rated at best, looked fake and terrible, with such bad dialog and acting to match, disrupting any seriousness in tone that the filmakers may have intended. "Alien" changed that; it was scary, it was realistic, it was well written and directed, with never too much of the antagonist revealed to the viewer, heightening the suspense and power of the alien. With a different director, say Roger Corman, "Alien" would have been a completely different movie. I propose the same with "Transformers". A different direction, or director, or script, could have made this a far better, or a far worse movie. Imagine if Uwe Boll had won the bid because no one else in Hollywood wanted it? This is about the highest praise I'll give Bay's movie. I stick to my conviction that I hope, much like the Hulk, another director, one who lives and breathes Transformers, or at least respects the old and new, will make a more fan-friendly film. I believe Bay is only a fan of his own vision of the franchise..so the fandom who grew up with these characters will continue to be cheated as long as he helms the films. Fortunately, as a consumer and fan, I can buy those parts of the franchise I enjoy, and hold out for a live action treatment that speaks more to alot of us old G1 fans. Bay's movie for me is at best a "B" movie, despite the budget and artistry applied. The bots' insubstantial "shredded metal" aesthetic and CG magical transition from alt to bot look anything but real to me, and the characters and dialog leave much room for improvement. I still wish that James Cameron had jumped on "Transformers" when it was first offered. I think he'd have made a far, far better film.

This may sound harsh, but considering the technology that's available today, its the animators duty to give us the most detailed realistic bots that we've ever seen. I do believe they accomplished this.

I disagree. So much of the vehicle breaks up that inside or out, the surfaces would be criss-crossed with seams under close scrutiny, regardless of how high tech they were. They'd pass muster at range, but they'd certainly look a bit odd up close, even if the tolerances were miniscule. In sunlight, they'd be quite visible. Moreover, millions of small pieces meandering their various ways upon an endoskeleton is unfeasible, impractical, and mechanically devoid of the requisite strength that would be needed on a large mechanism, unless one considers nano-tech to fuse parts at the atomic level, which I feel is an overused sci-fi crutch tantamount to magic. Of course, the blockiness of the 80's is unacceptable as well. I liked the Alternators: the designers used licensed vehicles and crafted some well designed, not as blocky, bots using, as much as possible, existing seamlines on the actual vehicle to form break points, while maintaining the integrity of the vehicle including interior details. Now, this line admittedly was an homage to the G1 aesthetic. However, with some variance in sculpting, the limbs of the bots could have been made to have a more organic or bio-mechanical aesthetic. This toyline was what made me feel that a truly realistic looking live-action "Transformers" movie could be made. And, honestly, they could have had symetrical and squarish surfaces; if the charcterizations, dialog, and plot were all enjoyable, I wouldn't have cared as much about the traditional aesthetic. As the designs go, in their attempt to make them look alien (as if bots that turn into vehicles aren't alien enough), I think they took the aesthetic a bit too far to the extreme, and their ablities to scan and become anything instantly as well as their magically morphing weapons kill any realism for me. I've worked around large aircraft too long to accept these designs as realistic. ILM eschewed realism for "coolness", or their approximation thereof. And Bay, who knew nothing of the franchise beyond "toy commercial" prior to helming the project and thus had no connection with the characters, would not accept the traditional depiction. As an aside, I think Macross, which is a transformable fighter series going back to the 80's with various incarnations spanning the last couple decades, culminating in last year's Macross Frontier, captures fairly realistically how a fighter could be realistically designed to transform. Shoji Kawamori is a talented mechanical engineer by education, and a fan of aircraft. He is also responsible for designing many of the toys which would become Transformers, as well as transforming and non-transforming mecha for many anime series. No fragmenting in his designs; there's a logic to the transforming sequence and many large structures; yet, esp in the newer Macross Zero and Frontier series where the transforming fighters, called valkyries, have fighting sequences, the conversion and movements of these things are swift, elegant, precise, and highly agile, along with being beautifully rendered digitally, giving them a cleaner more realistic aesthetic.

I understand were your coming from with this. As i car guy and mechanic myself i sometimes kringe when i watch movies such as the fast and Furious, Redline, and any other scene with car chases or tech discussions regarding them. I learned along time ago, that while these movies are made to appeal to enthusiast, there in no way shape or form made for them. Same goes with TF. These movies, and others like them are not made for the fan base. There made for the general public. The moving parts, intricate designs and such all are made to make the average movie goer go..

"Wow!! That was cool!" not..

"Dude, Optimus Primes gas tank shifted differently in this scene! Did you catch that?"

Someone once told me that Tyrese Gibson's role of "Epps"in the movie was fairly pointless. While i would agree, he does have a star factor and a fan base of his own that helps bring in the numbers. Like it or not, money talks.

Either way i still have to disagree that the transformation sequences defined an uniformed throughout the movie. Prime is great example of this. From the show of him in the first movie transforming on the freeway, to when he transforms in the hanger of the 2ND movie. All uniformed. And while not every scene might have been exactly perfect, the same could be said for an series in the TF universe. There's no reason that you should be nit picking the movie for this.

None of the transformation sequences were uniform, nor did they follow any set sequences. Each transformation shot was created based upon the particular angle of the shot, according to the digital artists. Of course, the cartoons are much worse at depicting the transformations. but a live action movie, for the sake of realism, should have a set sequence for every transformation. However, the ILm guys used a more cut and paste approach, slicing and dicing the vehicle image and randomly placing the shredded images until a final image was created. All those moving parts kills the realism for me; I'd almost prefer something that transformed based on a toy, for at least there'd be some practical basis for it to work. Which brings me back to the Alternators. In all honesty, it wouldn't even bother me if the Transformers couldn't accommodate a human passenger due to the full interior taken up with robot parts...that would be more plausible to me.

Ironhide as a minivan, or Topkick truck? What do you think the majority would have preferred? Or should i say, what would kids have preferred? And again, this could be said of any TF series. Prime as a fire engine with wings and giant cannons in the Cybertron series? Not very undercover if you ask me. And what about Jazz as a red/white/blue Porsche? Like it or not, flashy sells.

I agree with you about Prime's being a firetruck. He'll always be a semi to me. I didn't like any of the japanese imported Transformer series, anyway...just unwatchable. Sorry to all the folks that tried to make these shows work for English speaking fans; they were terrible despite their best efforts, artwork aside (I like the mix of traditional and digital artwork in a show like this for maintaining the integrity of the bots).

Considering this movie is breaking records left and right, and every person i talk describe this movie as one of the best action movies they've seen in recent memory, I'd have to say it appealed to them just fine. Its already made over $800 million world wide and at this pace, will easily break a billion. Like it or not, the people have spoken.

That's not to say that there isn't room for improvement. Hopefully the writers will take into consideration some of the criticism this movie has gotten and make improvements for the 3rd movie. I felt that they did listen and make improvements for the second, so i see no reason why they wouldn't do so for the 3rd installment.

The amount of money netted does not a great movie make. It's a reflection of the social tastes and willingness of that slice of society to spend money to indulge those tastes that have made Mr. Bay's movies successful. Personally, I believe if Bay's fans represent the current and future legacy of our planet, perhaps a great cataclysmic global cleansing of the Earth in 2012 isn't such a bad thing.

[5150 Lego]

Sorry for the late reply. I wanted to have time toread through and be able to anwser propperly.

What's wrong with a movie like this being military centric? Let them whine, I say. It's a far more realistic scenario to expect that our government would want to keep tabs on these Autobot aliens; their very dualistic nature would breed all sorts of miscontent and distrust, and it's highly plausible our government would want them shadowed or heavily involved with the military to keep tabs on them and to assist them if need be against the Decepticons. There would always be a looming fear that the bots would turn on us as a country, or as a species. To me there's a great movie in this line of thinking..serious, suspenseful, and dark. I think Bay could have made a movie like this; he has a good relationship with the military, and seems to admire and respect them.

I couldn't agree more. I movie like this is perfect for the Military. I think your idea is a very good one at that. Though to be honest, it really isn't all that much different than the plot/story of the 2ND movie. Other than the fear the bots as a whole would turn on the humans, you pretty much nailed the purpose of the Nest team. You might actually like this movie.

I didn't like his "boy and his car" approach in the least. It sounded terrible to me when it was first announced, and I felt vindicated when I finally watched it. I thought it was terrible, Shia's character annoying, the hackers unnecessary, and Sector 7 to be utterly detestable.

I think the "boy and his car" plot worked very well to show Bumble Bee and his compassion for the Humans. From helping Sam get close to Michaela, to protecting him through the movie. Then Sam showing his compassion when BB was captured. All relevant to the plot and well portrayed. I still don't understand why people saw Sam's character as annoying. I enjoyed him and feel he is a very capable actor.

The hackers on the other hand, while relevant to expose the cons virus and introduce frenzy and Barricade, were dragged on a bit. After the Aussie chick found the virus there really wasn't any point to them other than the final fight with Frenzy. Though considering this was the first movie, that could be forgiven. Though from what i understand, that sense was added at the last minute when the decision was made to remove the scene were prime offed Barricade so he could be saved for the 2nd movie. (although he never made it to the 2nd move, so that turned out to be a bad decsion. Unless of course he turns up in the 3rd).

Sector 7 again, while did help to tie things toechter, was again dragged on. I felt they were more for comedy relief than anything else. Again, this was the first movie, so it all was more less a test run to see how things would pan out for the first ever live action TF movie.

Ah, but I can compare "Alien" to something like this. Until "Alien", alien movies were B-rated at best, looked fake and terrible, with such bad dialog and acting to match, disrupting any seriousness in tone that the filmakers may have intended. "Alien" changed that; it was scary, it was realistic, it was well written and directed, with never too much of the antagonist revealed to the viewer, heightening the suspense and power of the alien. With a different director, say Roger Corman, "Alien" would have been a completely different movie. I propose the same with "Transformers". A different direction, or director, or script, could have made this a far better, or a far worse movie. Imagine if Uwe Boll had won the bid because no one else in Hollywood wanted it? This is about the highest praise I'll give Bay's movie. I stick to my conviction that I hope, much like the Hulk, another director, one who lives and breathes Transformers, or at least respects the old and new, will make a more fan-friendly film.

While I'm sure Transformers could have been darker, I'm not sure if that necessarily would have been good. A "Dark Knight" approach to TF would not have been good for this movie. TF is supposed to be a fun, relaxed action packed popcorn flick. Now i can't necessarily argue that Tf would have been a worse film had it taken a darker tone since we haven't seen that happen. But some of the series such as Energon had a more serious darker tone (though was still cheesier than the Pizza i had for dinner) and didn't seam to work. G1 was cheesy, but was fun at the same time. As was Animated. They were an escape from reality that while might have lacked at times in terms of plot and dialogue (there only so much talk of "servos" and "Processors") that one can take before its gets annoying and repetitive.

And I've said this time and time before, that one that is a fan of a series does not mean they are fit to direct on the big screen. There are many other things that make a movie good than being "respectful" of source material. Good overall directing, well executed action sequences, exceptional fight scenes with attention to detail. It doesn't mater how much "respect" or a fan the director is. If the movie lacks of of these aspects, then it will fail.

Speaking of which, i still fail to see how Bay, or the writers failed in "respecting the franchise" . I honestly don't see it. The stories were all based on TF mythos, Characters (while changed in design) were all based on originals. I will admit that although i liked most of there overall designs, i can understand that being a bit more recognizable (mainly mega tron). Although there are many series in the past that were they changed the overall design of the characters that differed from there G1 counterparts (Energon, Cybertron for example). So the Movie verse is not the only series that is guilt of this.

I believe Bay is only a fan of his own vision of the franchise..so the fandom who grew up with these characters will continue to be cheated as long as he helms the films. Fortunately, as a consumer and fan, I can buy those parts of the franchise I enjoy, and hold out for a live action treatment that speaks more to alot of us old G1 fans. Bay's movie for me is at best a "B" movie, despite the budget and artistry applied. The bots' insubstantial "shredded metal" aesthetic and CG magical transition from alt to bot look anything but real to me, and the characters and dialog leave much room for improvement. I still wish that James Cameron had jumped on "Transformers" when it was first offered. I think he'd have made a far, far better film.

I remember reading a while back that one of the reasons Cameron didn't take on the role of director was because he knew it was a no win situation with fans. TF fans are picky to say the least, and many just aren't open to a different interpetation than what there used to seeing. Many being fans for the full 25yrs already have a set image in there mind of what they expect. If that image or expectation isn't meet, the fist come out. He didn't want that grief. Considering the crap Bay has recieved, i can't say i blame him.

I disagree. So much of the vehicle breaks up that inside or out, the surfaces would be criss-crossed with seams under close scrutiny, regardless of how high tech they were. They'd pass muster at range, but they'd certainly look a bit odd up close, even if the tolerances were miniscule. In sunlight, they'd be quite visible. Moreover, millions of small pieces meandering their various ways upon an endoskeleton is unfeasible, impractical, and mechanically devoid of the requisite strength that would be needed on a large mechanism, unless one considers nano-tech to fuse parts at the atomic level, which I feel is an overused sci-fi crutch tantamount to magic. Of course, the blockiness of the 80's is unacceptable as well. I liked the Alternators: the designers used licensed vehicles and crafted some well designed, not as blocky, bots using, as much as possible, existing seamlines on the actual vehicle to form break points, while maintaining the integrity of the vehicle including interior details. Now, this line admittedly was an homage to the G1 aesthetic. However, with some variance in sculpting, the limbs of the bots could have been made to have a more organic or bio-mechanical aesthetic. This toyline was what made me feel that a truly realistic looking live-action "Transformers" movie could be made.

Unfortunately i just can't agree with this. While i like the Alternator line as they provide excellent vehicle detail inside and out, but lacked on the robot department. Optimus Prime as a Dodge Ram SRT-10 is perfect example of this. In robot mode from a side profile, he looks as if he wasn't even transformed. Like they just stood the truck up on end. And his feet... its the truck bed spilt in half. These are not Robots worthy of the big screen. While the current designs to leave open the question of integrity in mortal combat, again, you must understand that these designs are not just made for fans. But kids and the general Public. This is why you see the over done use of nitrous Oxide and wheelies in the street in "The Fast and Furious" movies. Not every movie (especially Sci-Fi) is going to make perfect sense. This were you need to That's not to say that you shouldn't have standards, but at some point we need to accept movies like this fiction and just sit back and enjoy the ride.

None of the transformation sequences were uniform, nor did they follow any set sequences. Each transformation shot was created based upon the particular angle of the shot, according to the digital artists. Of course, the cartoons are much worse at depicting the transformations. but a live action movie, for the sake of realism, should have a set sequence for every transformation. However, the ILm guys used a more cut and paste approach, slicing and dicing the vehicle image and randomly placing the shredded images until a final image was created. All those moving parts kills the realism for me; I'd almost prefer something that transformed based on a toy, for at least there'd be some practical basis for it to work. Which brings me back to the Alternators. In all honesty, it wouldn't even bother me if the Transformers couldn't accommodate a human passenger due to the full interior taken up with robot parts...that would be more plausible to me.

Well to a point your correct. Depending on what view your looking at, you are going to see a different transformation sequence. And while not perfect, i felt they did an overall good job of keeping things uniformed, and again, learned for the next go around. ROTF really had more attention to detail this time around. You should really check out the new toys based of the new movie. Prime is a perfect example. Is is damn near identical to his movie design.

I agree with you about Prime's being a firetruck. He'll always be a semi to me. I didn't like any of the japanese imported Transformer series, anyway...just unwatchable. Sorry to all the folks that tried to make these shows work for English speaking fans; they were terrible despite their best efforts, artwork aside (I like the mix of traditional and digital artwork in a show like this for maintaining the integrity of the bots).

At last, finally a point in the Transfandom we can agree on!

The amount of money netted does not a great movie make. It's a reflection of the social tastes and willingness of that slice of society to spend money to indulge those tastes that have made Mr. Bay's movies successful. Personally, I believe if Bay's fans represent the current and future legacy of our planet, perhaps a great cataclysmic global cleansing of the Earth in 2012 isn't such a bad thing.

Regardless what you feel does, or doesn't make a great movie, in this case, the general public (as well as the fans as much to your dismay) have spoken. This movie was highly successful, despite the harsh reviews from critics. Though i do hope that they give the bots some more screen time and dialoge. They did make improvments in the 2nd movie. No reason they won't do the same for the 3rd.

[M'Kyuun]

Sorry for the late reply. I wanted to have time toread through and be able to anwser propperly.

I appreciate your thoughtfulness. I'm a bit more impetuous, although I do put some thought into my posts. With that, here we go.

I couldn't agree more. I movie like this is perfect for the Military. I think your idea is a very good one at that. Though to be honest, it really isn't all that much different than the plot/story of the 2ND movie. Other than the fear the bots as a whole would turn on the humans, you pretty much nailed the purpose of the Nest team. You might actually like this movie.

Thanks for the compliment. I think Transformers, aside from GI Joe, of course, is a perfect venue for making a military movie. I haven't see the the movie, so I can't make an honest critique of how the Nest was utilized. I like Josh Duhamel's character(Capt Lennox), and I would have been happy to see him as the primary human character. I've seen several of Shia's recent movies, and honestly, he's nearly the same character in every one. He delivers his lines nearly the same way, and generally plays a snappy teen/twentyish character with a fast mouth, delivering a quick spew of "witty" or sarcastic dialog. He obviosly has fans, but I don't count myself among them. I think he has the potential, if he stretches beyond the typecast part he's been playing, to be an excellent actor..I honestly do. Even Keanu has demonstrated some range.

I think the "boy and his car" plot worked very well to show Bumble Bee and his compassion for the Humans. From helping Sam get close to Michaela, to protecting him through the movie. Then Sam showing his compassion when BB was captured. All relevant to the plot and well portrayed. I still don't understand why people saw Sam's character as annoying. I enjoyed him and feel he is a very capable actor.

The hackers on the other hand, while relevant to expose the cons virus and introduce frenzy and Barricade, were dragged on a bit. After the Aussie chick found the virus there really wasn't any point to them other than the final fight with Frenzy. Though considering this was the first movie, that could be forgiven. Though from what i understand, that sense was added at the last minute when the decision was made to remove the scene were prime offed Barricade so he could be saved for the 2nd movie. (although he never made it to the 2nd move, so that turned out to be a bad decsion. Unless of course he turns up in the 3rd).

Sector 7 again, while did help to tie things toechter, was again dragged on. I felt they were more for comedy relief than anything else. Again, this was the first movie, so it all was more less a test run to see how things would pan out for the first ever live action TF movie.

I felt no connection to Bumblebee, really. I loathed, beyond any measurable quantity, the cheesier than cheesy speaking-through-the-radio gimmick. He and Sam could have missed a turn, driven off a cliff, crashed to the bottom in a whirlwind of flame, metal, and burning flesh, and , only then, would I have felt that the movie would have found its feet. Jazz, with his inappropriate "what's crackin' little bitches" line, his movements, and further dialog, were all stereotypical. Those things could have been left out. bay tried so hard to make these characters alien, but imbues them with human attributes that just aren't really fitting. Scatman Crothers' Jazz was a cool, awesome character. Jazz had some cheesy lines from time to time, but the Scatman could pull them off and make them at least a little funny. RIP, Mr. Crothers. The new Jazz was just, well, offensive. I work in a very ethnically diverse environment..people from all walks of life, races, cultures, and backgrounds. They all bring something interesting to the table, but everyone has a sense of what's appropriate to say and how to say it at different times. Bay is bankrupt of that sense, I think. Or his writers, but I'm thinking it's more Mr. Bay. The hackers would have been better, I think, if it wasn't the token hot chick in the room who solely picks out the signal. It's so pat and generally just a cheap reason to put another hot chick in the movie. I'm not against hot chicks by any means; in fact, I rather like them. However, that whole subplot could have been a 3 minute shot of some bean counter popping his head up and saying, "I've isolated the signal...technobabble, technobabble, potentially compromising all official classified communications.", to which our intrepid SecDef responds by putting all DOD and POTUS support assets on high alert. The signal is detected on the president's plane, due to security protocols. Now we get to Frenzy, who was a transformer in name only. Here is yet another character that could have been deleted entirely, and the movie would have been the better for it. What I like most about all the other incarnations of transformers is that at least the charcters look like they'll turn into something, as parts of the alt are generally recognizeable somewhere on their bodies. Not Frenzy, however; then to add insult to injury, the thing is artificially played up to try and match its namesake. It didn't work for me on any level. It wasn't funny, and it wasn't a transformer. It was Bay's immature sense of humor and alot of CG magic. This and the equally unrecognizeable Megatron, who should have instant recognition, diminished the movie greatly for me. Well, that and the plot, dialog, aesthetic, lack of Transformer character development, Decepticon screen time, and cringeworthy attempts at humor. I bought the movie, in fact, and the more I think about it, I'm not sure why. I don't like it very much.

While I'm sure Transformers could have been darker, I'm not sure if that necessarily would have been good. A "Dark Knight" approach to TF would not have been good for this movie. TF is supposed to be a fun, relaxed action packed popcorn flick. Now i can't necessarily argue that Tf would have been a worse film had it taken a darker tone since we haven't seen that happen. But some of the series such as Energon had a more serious darker tone (though was still cheesier than the Pizza i had for dinner) and didn't seam to work. G1 was cheesy, but was fun at the same time. As was Animated. They were an escape from reality that while might have lacked at times in terms of plot and dialogue (there only so much talk of "servos" and "Processors") that one can take before its gets annoying and repetitive.

And I've said this time and time before, that one that is a fan of a series does not mean they are fit to direct on the big screen. There are many other things that make a movie good than being "respectful" of source material. Good overall directing, well executed action sequences, exceptional fight scenes with attention to detail. It doesn't mater how much "respect" or a fan the director is. If the movie lacks of of these aspects, then it will fail.

Speaking of which, i still fail to see how Bay, or the writers failed in "respecting the franchise" . I honestly don't see it. The stories were all based on TF mythos, Characters (while changed in design) were all based on originals. I will admit that although i liked most of there overall designs, I can understand that being a bit more recognizable (mainly mega tron). Although there are many series in the past that were they changed the overall design of the characters that differed from there G1 counterparts (Energon, Cybertron for example). So the Movie verse is not the only series that is guilt of this.

Ok, I'll concede that the movie doesn't necessarlily have to be dark. Other than Beast Machines, which had a darker tone than any other TF series I've seen, the Transformers have always been light fare, with quite a bit of humor thrown in. That's fine. I really liked Beast Wars, which had a lot of humor while being mildly more mature than its G1 toon inspiration, and TFA was just great, with many a subtle nod to the original show. These nods, I'd dare say, had a lot to do with the series' success, as short as the series was. The show's creators certainly were aware of the older fans support, and the creators themselves demonstrated time and again their own fandom in subtle and sometimes not so subtle ways throughout the series. I admit, I, like many fans, was not a fan of the new cartoonish look at first, but the characters, not to mention the wonderful toys, reeled me in. I loved the show..it had a few clunky eps, but overall, I really enjoyed it. Bay's movie lacked everything that made TFA great, IMHO.

As for the shredded appearance, I would have been fine with it, I think, much more if the characters had been more likeable, and if their dialog had been better. I didn't even care for Bay's Prime, even with Mr. Peter Cullen providing the voice. It's hard to put my thimb on it, but it didn't "feel" like Prime. I guess the movie's fans woll say it is a different Prime; so be it, I don't care for this Prime as much as his other incarnations.

I remember reading a while back that one of the reasons Cameron didn't take on the role of director was because he knew it was a no win situation with fans. TF fans are picky to say the least, and many just aren't open to a different interpetation than what there used to seeing. Many being fans for the full 25yrs already have a set image in there mind of what they expect. If that image or expectation isn't meet, the fist come out. He didn't want that grief. Considering the crap Bay has recieved, i can't say i blame him.

Well, I'd say you'd have to have some very thick skin to approach a license like Transformers for any kind of treatment, esp if you're looking to cover new ground. Kudos to Bay for having the guts to try. I just don't like what he did with it. Many obviously do. Good for them. No really, I'm not being facetious. If anything, I'm personally thankful to Bay for going the direction he went aesthetically as it's major impact for me was in the marked advancements in the toys. I imagine there were a few sleepless nights at Takara when the first movie concepts arrived, they saw the vehicle form and its corresponding bot, and just said, "how the heck are we going to make this turn into this?" I think bay's designs pushed the designers into new ways of thinking, and it's manifest in all the recent toylines from movie-based to Animated and Universe. I still lament that Cameron didn't leap at it, however, as he's always been something of a pioneer with new technologies, not to mention he is an accomplished artist himself and may have drawn up some interesting concepts for the characters. Regrettably, I guess we'll never know. Run's to corner to rock and sob uncontrollably.

Unfortunately i just can't agree with this. While i like the Alternator line as they provide excellent vehicle detail inside and out, but lacked on the robot department. Optimus Prime as a Dodge Ram SRT-10 is perfect example of this. In robot mode from a side profile, he looks as if he wasn't even transformed. Like they just stood the truck up on end. And his feet... its the truck bed spilt in half. These are not Robots worthy of the big screen. While the current designs to leave open the question of integrity in mortal combat, again, you must understand that these designs are not just made for fans. But kids and the general Public. This is why you see the over done use of nitrous Oxide and wheelies in the street in "The Fast and Furious" movies. Not every movie (especially Sci-Fi) is going to make perfect sense. This were you need to That's not to say that you shouldn't have standards, but at some point we need to accept movies like this fiction and just sit back and enjoy the ride.

You are so right on about Alternator Prime. It's by far one of the worst designs produced. My two favorite designs would be Jazz (Mazda RX-8), and Grimlock/Wheeljack ('05 Ford Mustang). Neither was perfect, but I feel in terms of the vehicle and bot, both modes had a great aesthetic, and the bot modes were some of the more articulated and poseable in the entire line. There were more bad designs than good in that series, I think. I'm a bot kinda guy and I want to pose mine. Alot of the figs had limited to nearly no leg poseability by virtue of design. Sideswipe (Dodge Viper) comes to mind. I lconsidered Alt Hound to be the definitive model until Universe Hound. However, using the few good examples with refinements to make them more poseable and a little less blockier, these designs would have worked well, pleased young and old fans with an acceptable aesthetic, and would have still provided some decently complex toys. The new Human Alliance toys are today's Alternators, actually. The pics I've seen look pretty decent. I tried to enjoy the ride in the first movie. I liked the opening, and a few scenes here and there. Blackout coming in for a landing and transforming in the city was a great looking scene. To me, this is where the money for CG effects should have gone; not Prime and co. stomping around in Sam's yard, but perhaps in showing the Decepticons being evil, or planning, or just doing something. Instead, they're little more than a footnote at the end of the movie. Not cool to leave out your title antagonists until the last 15 or so minutes of a movie, and then give them little to no personalities, dialog, or meaning to the plot other than a ferw minutes of fighting and "dying". I didn't like Bay's Megatron at all. He was not, and never will be in any form or fashion, Megatron to me. I'm not even really a big fan of Kaye's Megatron in Beast wars, although it's a different Megs from G1, and he takes the character in a very different, albeit humorously snobby, direction from the original. I love G1 megs; he was a great bad guy in the series, and awesome for the first half of the animated movie. There were some great lines in the showdown between Megs and Prime. Good stuff.

Well to a point your correct. Depending on what view your looking at, you are going to see a different transformation sequence. And while not perfect, i felt they did an overall good job of keeping things uniformed, and again, learned for the next go around. ROTF really had more attention to detail this time around. You should really check out the new toys based of the new movie. Prime is a perfect example. Is is damn near identical to his movie design.

Oh, ROTF Prime stands poised at the ready to take on Decepticons on my desk. He's a great figure, very close to his onscreen likeness, and a marked improvement over the '07 version, which I didn't buy for that reason. I still wish Prime was a cabover, and that the flames had been eschewed, but otherwise, he's at least recognizeable as Prime. I also picked up Breakaway (F-35 inspired, but a little off; interesting, quite poseable bot mode), Sideswipe( nice looking bot mode, except for the feet, great looking car mode), Ransack (sweet little biplane; decent bot mode), and Depthcharge (modern warship; great looking bot mode with weird knees). I bougt a bunch of the toys from the '07 movie. Ratchet's toy was probably one of my favorites from that line. he was big and chunky and solid. He was off alot from his onscreen likeness, esp in the legs, but still a cool, nearly classic transformer fig. I like Transforming toys, esp ones with a good bot mode, or a really off the wall transformation. They're little feats of engineering, and they're ineresting for that and other reasons. I really liked the Animated toys once I started picking a few up. Lots of character, and many are quite poseable.

At last, finally a point in the Transfandom we can agree on!

Hallelujah!!

Regardless what you feel does, or doesn't make a great movie, in this case, the general public (as well as the fans as much to your dismay) have spoken. This movie was highly successful, despite the harsh reviews from critics. Though i do hope that they give the bots some more screen time and dialoge. They did make improvments in the 2nd movie. No reason they won't do the same for the 3rd.

I haven't seen the second (will wait to watch on HBO 6 or 8 months from now), but I hope things improve. I've read a lot of spoilers and forum traffic concerning the ROTF, and I can make a fair assumption that I will agree with the critics, and I will not like it. Bay's humor is counter to my own, at least in this venue. I can and do speak with a certain lack of decorum often in my work environment. I'm shameless and extremely crass at times. I can turn it off, however, when the audience/environment dictates professionalism or appropriateness be observed. In a film about Transformers, I want to see Transformers plotting and fighting. I don't want to see characters like the twins, or sexual innuendo one could spread with a butterknife, or leg humping, or testicles on a robot, or any such juvenile attempts at humor. Only in another venue, like Robot Chicken, which crudely parodies pop culture, or family Guy, do these devices work. In a live action film aimed at the 13-14 year old audience, I can't see how these things are appropriate, funny, or necessary. I can say honestly, since my tastes haven't changed much since I was 13, that I would have hated Bay's movie as a teenager. Hell, I stopped watching the Transformers cartoon after the first season, with much lamenting, because it had been my favorite show of all time until the dialog, characters, and plots spiraled into ridiculousness from second season on. Drunk on energon, Seaspray, Powerglide, the red tank guy(name?), cosmic rust, Kremzeek, an on and on. The show completely lost the more serious and mature (for its time) tone it had maintained throughout the first season, and I stopped watching it. There are plenty of dumb scenes and characters in the animated movie as well, and I still cringe, but the scenes of Unicron eating the planets, and his transformation, as well as the fight between Prime and Megs, with Prime's subsequent death, were great. If Bay returns to helm a third movie, and I'm sure he will, as it's become a cash cow ripe for milking, I hope he tires of it and moves on. As I've stated, I hope someone else with some love for the characters takes the franchise and makes a movie closer to the roots of what made it grerat in the first place. I'd sleep a little better at night if, as icing on the cake, those movies honoring the original characters absolutely demolished all previous movie records by a factor of ten due to their awesome treatment of the Transformers, good plot, and minimal human interaction. I can only hope.

As an aside, this the quote function is causing me much perturbation, as it continually after numerous efforts to ensure proper isolation and labelling of quotes from your post, insists that the number of opening and closing tags doesn't match. they do. I've checked and rechecked and checked again. I'm removing the quote tags altogether. It's no longer worth the hassle and I need to hit the sack for work tomorrow.

Edited August 7, 2009 by M'Kyuun

[Pigbrick]

Can I ask if we get off the Transformers 2 debate for a little bit? It seems it has been going on for a while now and the only thing that has come out of it to me is that some people like it, and others don't. You know, like most movie debates. It's been going on for about four pages now and I doubt most people are going to change their opinions about the films, so let’s just take a little break from this and talk about something else Transformers related . Or not . It's your guys' choice.

When do you think another Transformers television series will start up again? The G1 show was what got me into Transformers in the first place so I feel there should always be a show running . I've been re-watching TFA at 6:00 in the morning before I leave for work and I've been starting to realize how much I liked this series. I liked the characters, especially Jazz, and enjoyed seeing Optimus progress through the series as becoming a better leader. There were some bad moments but I really haven't enjoyed a Transformers series since Beast Wars. So with the second movie done and TFA finished, do you think another series is in the works?

[M'Kyuun]

Can I ask if we get off the Transformers 2 debate for a little bit? It seems it has been going on for a while now and the only thing that has come out of it to me is that some people like it, and others don't. You know, like most movie debates. It's been going on for about four pages now and I doubt most people are going to change their opinions about the films, so let’s just take a little break from this and talk about something else Transformers related . Or not . It's your guys' choice.

When do you think another Transformers television series will start up again? The G1 show was what got me into Transformers in the first place so I feel there should always be a show running . I've been re-watching TFA at 6:00 in the morning before I leave for work and I've been starting to realize how much I liked this series. I liked the characters, especially Jazz, and enjoyed seeing Optimus progress through the series as becoming a better leader. There were some bad moments but I really haven't enjoyed a Transformers series since Beast Wars. So with the second movie done and TFA finished, do you think another series is in the works?

Sorry for all the space 5150 and I have been taking up. As for a new serries, I've not heard anything recently. If there was something new in the works, I would have expected an announcement at the San Diego Comic-Con. I know there are no plans to make any more Animated episodes, but there should be a few more toys hitting shelves before Hasbro pulls the plug completely. If a new show is in the works, I hope it's being made in the West, as the Japanese imported shows, i.e RID, Energon, Cybertron, and Armada were all, well, terrible. BW and BM, along with Animated have been some of the best TF shows in the last 15 years. I wouldn't mind seeing a show based around the Universe Classics line, but I doubt that will happen. I think the next series will be a radical departure from Animated, to make it "fresh". I'd like to see a show done in the same vein as Justice League, an ensemble series with a more serious tone than Animated, a more realistic aesthetic, and well written dialog/plots depicting the Decepticons as both cunning and fierce. Bad guys are generally more engaging than good, so a show written from the Decepticon perspective would be an interesting change.

[5150 Lego]

Can I ask if we get off the Transformers 2 debate for a little bit? It seems it has been going on for a while now and the only thing that has come out of it to me is that some people like it, and others don't. You know, like most movie debates. It's been going on for about four pages now and I doubt most people are going to change their opinions about the films, so let’s just take a little break from this and talk about something else Transformers related . Or not . It's your guys' choice.

Its not about changing ones mind about whether or not the movie is good. Trust me, i probably have close to 200 posts in this thread alone over the past 3 yrs. Some people expect certain things out of a movie than others, and i get that. But there's nothing wrong with debating about things you liked, or didn't like about the movies, or various TF series for that matter.

When i find something about said subject that i find very appealing, then find that the same thing that attracted me turned someone off, I'm curious to find out why. Not only that but having open debates is what helps get ideas out on the table for future incarnations for producers/writers (though I'm not sure how many producers cruise the Lego boards ).

I also greatly enjoy getting to know members in the Lego community outside of the Lego hobby. Personally, i find healthy debate a great way to get to know someone. I've enjoyed the discussion 'M'Kyuun"and i have had about the movie. Yes, some of the comments about the movie are repetitive, as are comments about new Lego sets. But even so, someone can still chime in and give a different perspective about that particular comment made. I welcome, and highly encourage this. I feel we both did just that in our lengthily conversation.

I know there are no plans to make any more Animated episodes, but there should be a few more toys hitting shelves before Hasbro pulls the plug completely.

Man i hope they release Animated Constructicons. I'd be in heaven if they were leader class, but I'd settle for Voyager. Do we know what figures are being planned for release?

If a new show is in the works, I hope it's being made in the West, as the Japanese imported shows, i.e RID, Energon, Cybertron, and Armada were all, well, terrible. BW and BM, along with Animated have been some of the best TF shows in the last 15 years.

I actually, didn't mind the Cybertron series. While similar to Energon and Armada,i felt the stories were better, and not as corny as the latter. Alt mode vehicles were more recognizable and better designed (not the half spaceship, half jet, half truck that nearly every TF had ). Still not on par with Animated, but somewhat "watchable" i guess.

[Pigbrick]

Yes, some of the comments about the movie are repetitive, as are comments about new Lego sets. But even so, someone can still chime in and give a different perspective about that particular comment made. I welcome, and highly encourage this. I feel we both did just that in our lengthily conversation.

I don't mind a healthy debate or a lengthy rebuttal but as you mentioned, certain things become repetitive. I think we covered a lot about the movie and I simply just want to move on to something else. Well, for a little bit at least . We can come back to it but I just believe the debate needs a little rest.

Man i hope they release Animated Constructicons. I'd be in heaven if they were leader class, but I'd settle for Voyager. Do we know what figures are being planned for release?

Man, oh Man, do I hope to see some Animiated Constructicons too! There has been a list posted but I can't remember everybody. I'm pretty sure Animated Arcee is coming out. I think I saw her too... I really don't remember but Seibertron.com should have the list.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Pigbrick

[5150 Lego]

I don't mind a healthy debate or a lengthy rebuttal but as you mentioned, certain things become repetitive. I think we covered a lot about the movie and I simply just want to move on to something else. Well, for a little bit at least . We can come back to it but I just believe the debate needs a little rest.

If you want to start a new topic, then go right ahead. No need to ask others to seace there disscusion cause you feel it needs a rest. We can easily discusse multiple things at once. I like multi tasking.

Man, oh Man, do I hope to see some Animiated Constructicons too! There has been a list posted but I can't remember everybody. I'm pretty sure Animated Arcee is coming out. I think I saw her too... I really don't remember but Seibertron.com should have the list.

Seibertron.com ismy favorite TF related web site. But there search funtion sucks! You'd be there for days trying to find that list. (hears were i hope someone proves me wrong a posts up the list!)

[MrTools]

i also just remembered, at the end of the second movie as well as the first there was definatly a line that would lead me to think there will be a third movie. Hopefully if we get a third we can see unicron in action!

[optimus-convoy]

Seibertron.com ismy favorite TF related web site. But there search funtion sucks! You'd be there for days trying to find that list. (hears were i hope someone proves me wrong a posts up the list!)

With pleasure! Also, images.

Here's a condensed list:

Electrostatic Soundwave w/ Ratbat (Soundblaster)

Arcee

Rodimus Minor

Cybertronian "Young" Ratchet

Cybertronian Ironhide

Fugitive Waspinator (Wasp)

Golfire Grimlock (Unexpected repaint)

Hydrodive Bumblebee (BB + Submarine )

Blackout (Movie inspired)

Wingblade Prime (Like in the final battle.)

Thundercracker

Sorry guys, no constructicons... It's a shame we'll probably never see any other bots from Animated. Most of their designs proved quite interesting.

i also just remembered, at the end of the second movie as well as the first there was definatly a line that would lead me to think there will be a third movie. Hopefully if we get a third we can see unicron in action!

That's pretty much exactly what I'm expecting to come from the third. Plus Galvatron, and such. Either that, or they could take another slightly obscure comic character, and make him the main threat, just like ROTF. (Jhiaxus anyone? )

Also, one last thing I'd like to take from the movie conversation deal. I've seen mentions of Beast Wars and Animated being the high points of Transformers storytelling in a not completely cheesy way. While I generally agree, I thought it'd also be worth mentioning some of the many comic series' as other examples of slightly darker, and heavier TF stories. Specifically I'll mention the original Marvel G1 run, and the recent IDW G1 revamp that consists of Infiltration, All Hail Megatron, and many other short series'.

Edited August 12, 2009 by optimus-convoy

[5150 Lego]

images.

Here's a condensed list:

Sorry guys, no constructicons... It's a shame we'll probably never see any other bots from Animated. Most of their designs proved quite interesting.

Damn it! No Contructicons??? Those were great designs too! As of right now the only degins that intrigue me are Blackout (was he even in any of the episodes?) and Wingblade Optimus Prime. What the heel is that half bumble Bee,half submarine thing? A wasted design that could have been used on a contructicon. Lame.

Also, one last thing I'd like to take from the movie conversation deal. I've seen mentions of Beast Wars and Animated being the high points of Transformers storytelling in a not completely cheesy way. While I generally agree, I thought it'd also be worth mentioning some of the many comic series' as other examples of slightly darker, and heavier TF stories. Specifically I'll mention the original Marvel G1 run, and the recent IDW G1 revamp that consists of Infiltration, All Hail Megatron, and many other short series'.

Comic as faras stories goes, are in a different league than cartoon,or movies. I'm not say one is better than the other (personaly,i can't read comic books) but writen stories might read well, but are horrible when portrayed on scree,and vise versa. I can watch G1, but the G1 comic is cheesier than the series its based on. I dunno,its hard to describe.

[Pigbrick]

I can watch G1, but the G1 comic is cheesier than the series its based on. I dunno,its hard to describe.

You mean like how Soundwave's Ratbat controlled the Decepticon army on earth in one of the comic book story arcs? And almost won ! It's amazing what a robot-bat that can transform into a cassette tape can really do .

And thanks for finding the list, Optimus-Convoy

Edited August 12, 2009 by Pigbrick

[5150 Lego]

You mean like how Soundwave's Ratbat controlled the Decepticon army on earth in one of the comic book story arcs? And almost won ! It's amazing what a robot-bat that can transform into a cassette tape can really do .

And thanks for finding the list, Optimus-Convoy

Not really. Just that the way one sometimes reads a story can be portrayed different that watching it on screen. When you read a story in a sence, you can form in your head what the scene looks like, how the characters are portrayed, and given your own depth on how you as the reader want to perceive any said story. You can read something and now its cheesy (like your example)but can picture it in your head in a way that would make it less of a cheese factor. This is why i don't like (serious) comics. If you don't like what your reading, than you really can't change it. Cause its right there in front of you. There's no imagination. At least with a cheesy filled cartoon, you can watch as things unfold. Sorry if I'm confusing anyone. Like i said, its kinda hard for me to explain.

[Satellite Jack]

Well I got Ejector yesterday. I usually don't get Scout Class figures, but... he's a toaster for pete's sake! Though, I was surprised by such a high price for a small figure. I almost didn't get it. But it was the only Ejector left, I couldn't resist. Great figure. Highly recommended. I like him better than my Sideswipe and Rampage