Ragnarök Now Redux - Nights (Players Only)

[Hinckley]

You got it.

What do I have?

Honestly, I'm not really sure, but Petr called out a whole bunch of people in terms of their reactions and suggested we look at those groups. Tumi was notably absent in that conclusion. Either he intentionally left Tumi out of that analysis or something changed between the time he posted that and the end of the day. I suppose it's possible that he simply forgot Tumi, but that seems a lot less likely to me. Either he changed his mind on his own, or someone told him something in PM that led him to want to target Tumi.

While I agree he didn't mention Tumi in the conclusions, he did ask in those posts if people thought it was strange that Tumi accused him but didn't vote for him. I don't follow the logic behind anybody telling him to target Tumi by PM. For that to happen, someone would have to know he was capable of targeting someone. So, Finn, what exactly are you proposing would happen in that PM scenario? Please clarify that.

Now maybe he really was a Servant of Loki and he was just tricking us with that conclusion post. In that case, I think we take a more serious look at Patrekr as a possible bus since he didn't follow up on that idea with his action. If he comes back Einherjar, and Tumi's also Einherjar, then I'd be worried that we've already got a Servant manipulating our thought processes behind the scenes. That wouldn't be terribly surprising, but maybe an Einherjar who had contact with Petr has insight into who else also did. Obviously, if Tumi's a servant, then we can all be thankful that Petr's death was not in vain.

Why don't you think Kolgrima was a possible bus?

[jimmynick]

You asked me for a citation for Petr claiming that Kolgrima and Patrekr (and not Tumi) were the most suspicious people, and then you found it yourself.

[Scubacarrot]

What do I have?

An ugly face.

[Hinckley]

An ugly face.

You want me.

[Scubacarrot]

You're right, Snotra, that is a peculiar phrase that Lefsi uttered. "With the town" not "with us". And it seems to imply that he knows Dufa is town.

Duuuuuuude... my hand.... I don't have any fingers... just a clippy thingy... Duuuuuuuuuuuude!

I'm going to be honest with you, Mursi. You are at the tippety top of my suspicion list. If Petr turns out an innocent little boy, you're gonna get it. I leave what "it" is up to your imagination.

[Hinckley]

I'm going to be honest with you, Mursi. You are at the tippety top of my suspicion list. If Petr turns out an innocent little boy, you're gonna get it. I leave what "it" is up to your imagination.

What is it that makes you suspicious of him?

[Scubacarrot]

The way he acts less smart than I think he is. Like with the no-lynch thing. Also his insistence on Sigrid being (likely) innocent, his crusade for Petr, and now him agreeing with me out of nowhere, but as for the required own input, tries to grab onto something which is clearly NOT a thing. The "the town" instead of "us". Come on. That's just something. If you say, "the town" that can include yourself. Maybe not for Mursi, but there you go.

And Mursi was seemingly HELL-BENT on lynching Petr, and NOT Sigrid, looking back. So that's interesting.

Also, just saying. The likelyhood of Tumi being killed by a day action seems far greater to me than it being Petr's vengefulness.

[Fugazi]

Also, just saying. The likelyhood of Tumi being killed by a day action seems far greater to me than it being Petr's vengefulness.

A day action is a possibility, but if so why Tumi? By day action, are you thinking Einherjar or Servant of Loki?

Given that it looks like Petr himself attacked Tumi, and that he suspected his victim, I'm leaning towards a Vengeful action myself.

[CorneliusMurdock]

What "no-lynch thing"? I did have my doubts that we'd have a lynch yesterday (mainly due to a lackadaisical attitude of some players and very possible scum interference), yes, but I never said that's what I wanted. In fact, the opposite.

I never insisted that Sigird is innocent. I just think that Petr was more suspicious and that the reasoning behind her lynch was flimsier. Besides being a complete flake, what did Sigrid do? How exactly would her lynch have benefitted us? She could very well be scum. It just seemed likelier that Petr was scum based on his behavior than Sigrid.

As for agreeing with you, sometimes even you can have a good idea. Good for you. I don't have to be your best friend to agree with you. Nor your enemy to disagree.

Semantics is important sometimes because it reveals the frame of mind of the speaker. This is hardly a revolutionary idea in these situations and has been pointed out before to good effect. The difference between being loyal and pretending to be loyal won't be obvious but could come out incidentally.

And roleplaying is roleplaying, dude-ette. Stupid is as stupid acts.

AND I hope that the "it" is a pie. I'm starving and I'm ready for dessert.

[Hinckley]

Also, just saying. The likelyhood of Tumi being killed by a day action seems far greater to me than it being Petr's vengefulness.

Why would Petr be shown killing him then? You think there's a day serial killer that possesses the body of the lynchee?

[Scubacarrot]

Hm. I may have misconstructed the fact that you were really against the Sigrid lynch to be a no lynch plan. You were actually already pushing for Petr there. You were really, really going for the "Sigrid's just a sheep, leave her alone. " Can't deny that.

What exactly is a "dangerous sheep"? The worst Sigrid is doing is not participating. It feels weird to me that when some momentum is building for Petr that a bunch of you dudes start swinging for Sigrid. Especially those that say we need a lynch.

And what will we have tomorrow with a Sigrid lynch? "Oh well, she was useless anyway."

Yeah, let's get that factual evidence up on here. I disagree completely with what you said about behaviour. Obviously. I voted for Sigrid. The agreeing is not the thing I'm falling over, it's that your original input is as thin as Helga's beard. Sure, if you say "You townies" what you're saying would make sense, but that wasn't said. I will say "(The) Vikings are badasses," not "Us, the vikings you know, where I am in included, are badasses." You know what I mean.

And it's totally not your roleplaying that makes me think you are being a silly little tribal viking. And it's not a pie. Unless you count it as being a pie of death, which I doubt.

Why would Petr be shown killing him then? You think there's a day serial killer that possesses the body of the lynchee?

Hadn't actually laid that connection. But, meh, I think the pictures might not say everything, or anything at all. The pictures aside, the logical side of things would say day action is more likely than revenge ghosts/take someone with me. If he was vengeful, he was town. So that'd be Mursi killing time.

A day action is a possibility, but if so why Tumi? By day action, are you thinking Einherjar or Servant of Loki?

Don't know?

[Palathadric]

As far as all the talk regarding why Petr seemed to somewhat leave off Tumi, maybe, although I hope this is not true, he was the vig and was suspicious of Tumi and was trying to judge Tumi's response or something, and then he decided to kill him, and, seeing him as more dead than alive after that, didn't bother to mention him. I'm not really sure how day actions work though and I know they had me tremendously confused at the end of the last game I participated in.

I think the vengeful thing makes more sense though.

In any case, if Petr was town, which if he were vengeful would likely be the case, I hope Tumi is scum. He did strike me as being somewhat suspicous, but I think he always does.

A day action is a possibility, but if so why Tumi? By day action, are you thinking Einherjar or Servant of Loki?

If it were a day action, I would assume it was an Einherjar one as I doubt the Servants of Loki would take out Tumi this early on unless they thought him to have a role for some reason.

[CorneliusMurdock]

It's remarkable how you never ever like me, Snotra. And how often you're wrong.

If you want to waste tomorrow trying to get me lynched, more power to you. I don't think you'll have many backers. Your leap in logic doesn't cross the chasm.

You don't have to agree with me about scrutinizing semantics. And I'm sorry my mental capacities are a source of disappointment for you.

[fhomess]

It seems a little early for incriminating information to be discussed behind the scenes, but I guess it's a possibility. Also, despite not including him in his "analysis", I think he made it clear he suspected Tumi of being a Servant.

On the first point, I've seen all sorts of information passed back and forth early throughout my various raids. It boggles the mind but it happens. Whether it was Petr sharing information or Petr receiving it I don't know. I will not rule out the idea of Petr deciding for himself, but if you want to ignore this as a possible source of clues for tomorrow, then I guess you're welcome to. I think there's a chance there's something useful in there and I will entertain that thought. What do you think we can learn from Petr's death if he turns up Einherjar as you seem to think he will?

While I agree he didn't mention Tumi in the conclusions, he did ask in those posts if people thought it was strange that Tumi accused him but didn't vote for him. I don't follow the logic behind anybody telling him to target Tumi by PM. For that to happen, someone would have to know he was capable of targeting someone. So, Finn, what exactly are you proposing would happen in that PM scenario? Please clarify that.

I think there are more possibilities than just someone told him to target Tumi. However, I agree that if someone told him to target Tumi then the only way they could've known that he was vengeful was if he told them that first. That isn't out of the realm of possibility for Petr. Maybe he shared that information too willingly with someone trying to clarify his position after his debacle. I'm not ready to rule out anything here. This is Petr, after all.

Why don't you think Kolgrima was a possible bus?

His "Oh look, Patreker again!" suggested he wanted us to, you know, look at Patrekr. Kolgrima's a possibility, too, but that line made me think he was more concerned with portraying Patrekr as scummy than Kolgrima.

[Rick]

On the first point, I've seen all sorts of information passed back and forth early throughout my various raids. It boggles the mind but it happens. Whether it was Petr sharing information or Petr receiving it I don't know. I will not rule out the idea of Petr deciding for himself, but if you want to ignore this as a possible source of clues for tomorrow, then I guess you're welcome to. I think there's a chance there's something useful in there and I will entertain that thought. What do you think we can learn from Petr's death if he turns up Einherjar as you seem to think he will?

What we saw when Petr was lynched seems consistent with him being vengeful and that's more likely to be a Einherjar role. Maybe it's something else entirely. We just have to wait and see. It's possible Petr targeted Tumi based on something that came up during private communications, but I don't see why it's necessary in your line of reasoning. After all, he made it clear he suspected Tumi based on his public reactions to his "game".

[Palathadric]

If Dave gets a few more votes, I may flip my vote, but I'm probably going to be sleeping when the day ends.

This is from Dufa's message to Chief Mursi. What I wonder though is that this happened when Sigrid was leading the voting 9-6. Why would Dufa have said that he would switch to Petr when Sisco was leading? Even if Petr had gotten a few more votes they would probably have been roughly at a tie, which makes one wonder if Dufa really thought that Sisco was more suspicious than Petr. Of course, I didn't read the whole chain, so perhaps that's why I see it this way. Another thing that I find funny is that something from the tone of the message it almost sounds like Dufa is hoping that Chief Mursi will get a few more people to vote for Petr.

[Palathadric]

Oops, had some things to do, anyway...

Something else I noticed is that Lefsi was very quiet throughout the start of the day. I know that a few of us were very suspicious of him towards the end of yesterday, and it seems convenient that he sort of disappeared for a while and only reappeared when the whole Sigrid-Wilhalm debate was going on in some earnest. First two posts were these:

I'm here. Just haven't had anything worthwhile to say. Would you prefer I come in with the obligatory "Oh crap, can't believe Petr was Town! Oh man, that sucks we're down 5 Townies" just to look like I'm helpful?

More people are found as being suspicious for saying something not helpful than saying that they have nothing helpful to say, from what I've seen. It's not like Lefsi was accused, but he makes sure that he isn't dumped into the same group as Sigrid, while also making sure that his speech doesn't cause anyone to feel the need to respond to it.

Wary, I appreciate your little analysis here, but I in no way was confused by Wilhalm's play style. I voted for him because for what I saw, was him backing up one of his buddies(Naemr) for no reason early in Day 1. Also to say that I made a quick unvote is ridiculous, as I was one of the early ones to vote overall and only made a change at the end when it was obvious that we were down to two potential candidates for a lynch. Between them, Petr and Sigrid, I felt, and many others felt, that Petr was the better lynch of the 2.

I am more interested in your voting habits as the first vote gave Mist a 5th vote, which at the time was getting that bandwagon a nice head of steam. Then, in your un-vote/vote, tied it all up with Sigrid and Petr late in the game, something we've agreed a Loki would like to have in the endgame for the day.

Quick on the draw to say that Wary's wrong to prevent anyone who's focusing on the other debate (Dufa/Snotra-Chief Mursi) to switch to scanning him (Lefsi). He then throws a weak accusation at Wary.

Fair enough, but i still contend that Sigrid was the "easy" lynch. She hadn't done squat and by not dropping the act made her quite suspicious. Her refusal to defend herself against countless accusations also didn't help her cause. In my mind, I considered her an unhelpful town, but I don't speak for the others in the group. I like my vote right where it was, with Wilhalm. I don't like what he did early on, but it was obvious that a vote for him wasn't going to mean shit. If the act continues today, I will really consider voting for her because a Loki verdict I think would tell us a lot about yesterday's vote, even if it would implicate someone as myself since I changed my vote at the end. Of course, many of the group did.

Sigrid was an "easy" lynch, but I'm not convinced that Wilhalm's wasn't just as "easy" as Wilhalm didn't really respond to accusations or defend himself either, so I don't know what he means by that. Acknowledges that Sigrid's flipping scum may implicate him, but quickly remind as well that there are many others who could be seen as suspicious as well. He seems very defensive the whole time.

Petryk also bothers me a bit when he seemed to be fishing for some info by asking me how I was going to get information from Wilhalm when it's pretty obvious how that would be taken care of at night.

Even if you were to watch him/track him (I always forget which is which ), all you would know is that he targeted someone, not with what action he did. He could easily be scum targeting someone with some action other than a killing one (assuming he is not a killer of course).

[Palathadric]

To me, if Wilhalm is Scum, so is Naemr due to his backing him up Day 1. Some others don't like this theory, I'm ok with that. Same holds true with Wary and Dufa. It's a pet peeve of mine and actually seems to hold up in past games of life where I've noticed it. Even in ones that I've only been watching from afar.

Sounds like a really ridiculous conclusion to come to. Why would two scum attach to each other so early in the game and over nothing at all. It's not like Naemr's post was game-changing or anything like that. Generally scum like to keep their distance from one another. Granted there is the possibility that both of them spoke over-eagerly and their posts were pretty close together, but I would certainly lean towards only one of them being scum.

You sure as shit suggested something, don't try to say you didn't and backtrack. You said you'd kill me if you were the vig. Sending an open invitation to the vig if you're not him. Dumb.

Of course the vig is welcome to kill you, I'm not saying he can't do what I don't tell him to?? I can also say I want him to kill Mursi, I'd like that, because I think he's scum. How's that helping or not helping anyone? Unless the vigilante's a megablock, he's gonna make his own thought-through decision if and who he's gonna kill. Seriously, kill the redshirt already, jeez...

Does anyone else think that this whole Snotra-Lefsi argument seems very made-up? It almost sounds like Snotra is talking so freely about the vig killing Lefsi to ensure that the vig won't do that.

[jimmynick]

Even if you were to watch him/track him (I always forget which is which ), all you would know is that he targeted someone, not with what action he did. He could easily be scum targeting someone with some action other than a killing one (assuming he is not a killer of course).

An investigator could check whether Wilhalm is town. I don't think someone would claim psychiatrist (or another role) if they're vanilla. Or did one of the people who died last night claim investigator to you?

Does anyone else think that this whole Snotra-Lefsi argument seems very made-up? It almost sounds like Snotra is talking so freely about the vig killing Lefsi to ensure that the vig won't do that.

Well, you're getting into WIFOM there, but I think the argument is genuine.

[CorneliusMurdock]

To answer Wary's question, why did I vote for Dufa? I've become pretty certain that Dufa is scum. I'm not entirely sure of the relationship he might have with Naemr, the leading candidate from yesterday. He could have been protecting a fellow scum and then gave up or he could have been focused on bringing a different townie down instead and then figured that any townie lynch would be good enough.

My main interest in what Naemr said wasn't whether a team would have stopped him from saying something stupid but why Dufa thought about it the way he did.

Does that answer you?

[Waterbrick Down]

To answer Wary's question, why did I vote for Dufa? I've become pretty certain that Dufa is scum. I'm not entirely sure of the relationship he might have with Naemr, the leading candidate from yesterday. He could have been protecting a fellow scum and then gave up or he could have been focused on bringing a different townie down instead and then figured that any townie lynch would be good enough.

My main interest in what Naemr said wasn't whether a team would have stopped him from saying something stupid but why Dufa thought about it the way he did.

Does that answer you?

I'm satisfied, though I don't see how voting for Dufa helped advanced anything so late in the day.

[LegoDad]

Oops, had some things to do, anyway...

Something else I noticed is that Lefsi was very quiet throughout the start of the day. I know that a few of us were very suspicious of him towards the end of yesterday, and it seems convenient that he sort of disappeared for a while and only reappeared when the whole Sigrid-Wilhalm debate was going on in some earnest. First two posts were these:

More people are found as being suspicious for saying something not helpful than saying that they have nothing helpful to say, from what I've seen. It's not like Lefsi was accused, but he makes sure that he isn't dumped into the same group as Sigrid, while also making sure that his speech doesn't cause anyone to feel the need to respond to it.

Quick on the draw to say that Wary's wrong to prevent anyone who's focusing on the other debate (Dufa/Snotra-Chief Mursi) to switch to scanning him (Lefsi). He then throws a weak accusation at Wary.

Sigrid was an "easy" lynch, but I'm not convinced that Wilhalm's wasn't just as "easy" as Wilhalm didn't really respond to accusations or defend himself either, so I don't know what he means by that. Acknowledges that Sigrid's flipping scum may implicate him, but quickly remind as well that there are many others who could be seen as suspicious as well. He seems very defensive the whole time.

Even if you were to watch him/track him (I always forget which is which ), all you would know is that he targeted someone, not with what action he did. He could easily be scum targeting someone with some action other than a killing one (assuming he is not a killer of course).

Lots of points to cover here, but here goes. Rurik calls me out wondering where I am. I answer but don't have anything to add to the conversation at the time.

Wary was someone I was wanting to question, when he brought up the voting analysis, I was happy to question it since his voting Day 1 was suspicious. He answered questions I had and was very active Day 2, I'm not too worried about him anymore. And by weak accusation, you mean like what this series of questions are?

If you think Wilhalm was an easier lynch at the times I voted for him, you are out of your ghord. Sigrid was probably a guaranteed lynch Day 1 if Petr doesn't go crazy. I'm not defensive about my voting, merely acknowledging that I fall into the group that voted Petr in the end.

You're assuming too much again with watching/tracking. I've never claimed any actions. Why do you keep bringing this up? Still fishing for info?

Sounds like a really ridiculous conclusion to come to. Why would two scum attach to each other so early in the game and over nothing at all. It's not like Naemr's post was game-changing or anything like that. Generally scum like to keep their distance from one another. Granted there is the possibility that both of them spoke over-eagerly and their posts were pretty close together, but I would certainly lean towards only one of them being scum.

Does anyone else think that this whole Snotra-Lefsi argument seems very made-up? It almost sounds like Snotra is talking so freely about the vig killing Lefsi to ensure that the vig won't do that.

Scum bussing happens all the time, you surely know that. It's possible that Naemr is a goon and the scum team decided to bus him and look innocent instead of getting blood on their hands by not voting for him or going after him.

My arguement with Snotra is not made up. I messaged him, and he immediately brings it out in the open. Then pushing the Vig to go ahead and kill me. WTF is that? I'm pretty sure he's town, but his actions annoy the hell out of me.

[Palathadric]

I'm not assuming anything. You were the one talking about watching him:

This gives Town 2 options, not watch him and take his word for his claim, or watch and risk getting picked off by the Scum because they're watching him, too.

I guess when you said "watch him," you didn't mean that literally, or?

I've never claimed any actions. Why do you keep bringing this up? Still fishing for info?

What does this have to do with anything. I never asked you if you had an action or remotely hinted that.

If you think Wilhalm was an easier lynch at the times I voted for him, you are out of your ghord. Sigrid was probably a guaranteed lynch Day 1 if Petr doesn't go crazy.

I never said "easier," I said "just as easy," and it was easy. Sigrid only had one vote at the time you voted for Wilhalm, hardly a "guaranteed Day 1 lynch."

[Rick]

If Naemr gets close enough to be lynched and I'm back before the day ends, I will switch to him to secure it as I would be comfortable with lynching him today even in light of Sigrid's situation. Maybe this can spur some people on to consider voting as well.

I assume you didn't get a chance to be around?

Wilhalm - Has been acting strange as a lot of others have noticed, though he claims a useful role for us so it seems we are giving him the night prove himself.

How do you think he can prove himself? Chances are he's not going to find the SK tonight.

It seems to me that some people are strongly cautioning us not to use any info from a lynch.

I'm not saying you shouldn't use any information you can get from yesterday's lynch. I just don't see the conclusive evidence we'll get from it. I agree with you that it seems likely that Mursi is Einherjar if Sigrid turns up Einherjar. The Servants, knowing two Einherjar were on the chopping block, could easily spread out over the two bandwagons in that case. What if she turns out to be a Servant? Are you going to conclude Mursi is too? Would a Servant step up to defend a fellow Servant to stop a bandwagon on her (considering the risk the lynch would go through anyway)? Did you consider the possibility that the Servants knew it was likely she was going to drop out yesterday and decided to not put any effort into saving her at all? And what about the rest of the voters for the two candidates? I doubt the Servants would all jump on Petr's bandwagon and risk exposing themselves, considering the risk of us finding out Sigrid's affiliation (from yesterday's lynch if it had gone through, a (vig) kill, or her dropping out). I understand how this is going to sound to you from someone who voted for Petr yesterday though.

Yeah, I do think that Naemr is Einherjar and that's why I'm not keen on voting for him right now. Don't be offended, but I'm not convinced by your case against him. It's not sexy. In my opinion it can go either way, his reactions may well be that of a less experienced townie.

You think Naemr's Einherjar and "think it can go either way" at the same time? I know it seems like I'm dissecting everything you say, but what do you think about Naemr affiliation?

I am ready to lynch today, but given that we're already losing a Viking who I think is also Einherjar, I'm not ready to lynch just anybody without more evidence. If one of them turns out to be scum, all the better -- but I just don't feel that they will.

And where did you expect more evidence to come from?

I targeted Gofraid because it is based on my gut feeling to make sure that he will not be a threat to me and to clear my own suspicions, so I can have my own trust-able listing that I hope to contact in private, if require. Yes, there is a risk in doing so, but I won't be doing it alone.

You realise you can't trust someone you clear of being the SK, right? So, did you chose Gofraid because you suspected him of being the SK or did you try to clear him, as you seem to suggest?

Sounds like a really ridiculous conclusion to come to. Why would two scum attach to each other so early in the game and over nothing at all. It's not like Naemr's post was game-changing or anything like that. Generally scum like to keep their distance from one another. Granted there is the possibility that both of them spoke over-eagerly and their posts were pretty close together, but I would certainly lean towards only one of them being scum.

You may remember I had a discussion with Lefsi about this before, but he doesn't seem to see why it's ridiculous. In Naemr's case, there was nothing for Wilhalm to defend him from or back him up on, as no one had responded to Naemr's statement yet before Wilhalm posted.

Scum bussing happens all the time, you surely know that. It's possible that Naemr is a goon and the scum team decided to bus him and look innocent instead of getting blood on their hands by not voting for him or going after him.

Bussing? I thought you said you suspected Wilhalm for defending him/backing him up?

[LegoDad]

Rurik- It's pretty obvious that I'm talking about Naemr in that last part from yesterday, not Wilhalm. Why would you think I was talking about Wilhalm?