if it's doable I look forward to seeing a final working version. I used the wrong word earlier, I should have said "challenging".

H

anyone who wants to try definitely go for it :D i aint jealous !!

It is not free energy, just a clever way to use the energy already used to create the magnets.

Even tho it requires energy to produce permanent magnets, there is no energy stored in them.

Motion-energy seen on the magnets attracting or rejecting each other, is sourced from the mechanical work (by somebody/something) when they are forced away, or towards each other, in the first place.

Made edits. to make more sense :)

Edited December 3, 201311 yr by Tech-nick

Well, I'm not sure about the original design, but after reading over this thread I feel like I should sit down and design a Lego Rail Gun. I wonder how much current I could pump through those ME Models replacement metal rails before they melt their mountings...

Well, I'm not sure about the original design, but after reading over this thread I feel like I should sit down and design a Lego Rail Gun. I wonder how much current I could pump through those ME Models replacement metal rails before they melt their mountings...

Well, there is one way to find out. You can probably use the transformer from a MIG welder.

http://www.google.com/patents/US3218489

My dad seen a linear motor when working for Herbert Morris Cranes, it fired a big sheet of metal though a wall, morris cranes has or had the patent.

Edited December 3, 201311 yr by JM1971

There is no way to make a perpetual motion machine, it's as simple as that. If a magnet passes another magnet, the net work done by each magnet is zero. You can't create energy out of nothing. It is a consequence of the second law of thermodynamics.

Agree, but only in this universe that we (somehwat) understand. I sure would like a ticket (not one-way only please) to some of those other universes. I guess they must be filled with those flying cars from the 70's ..

PM machines, making fvck with human minds since 2000BC

Edited December 3, 201311 yr by 1974

Even tho it requires energy to produce permanent magnets, there is no energy stored in them.

Motion-energy seen on the magnets attracting or rejecting each other, is sourced from the mechanical work (by somebody/something) when they are forced away, or towards each other, in the first place.

Made edits. to make more sense :)

Yes that is why i said putting the steel ball at the right place added energy to the system. But you need to create the magnets in the first place.

Agree, but only in this universe that we (somehwat) understand. I sure would like a ticket (not one-way only please) to some of those other universes. I guess they must be filled with those flying cars from the 70's ..

PM machines, making fvck with human minds since 2000BC

Actually, these laws seem to be very universal

As far as I know, these laws are derived from causality. And causality is something that is the most essential thing in how we sense and describe anything in existence. It's essential as 1+1=2.

For flying cars: I think levitation wouldn't require any energy. It's the same as putting something on the shelf.

There is one way to make this work ... but you have to continuously keep moving/rotating the magnets so as to create a magnetic 'traveling wave' onto which the train would ride.

It could be quite fun to try and rig up some kind of AC circuit with induction coils.

Exactly ... but 'linear' electro-magnets are not 'available' as Lego parts. That is why I mentioned mechanically rotating je common train magnets.

A worthy MOC/exercise ... but in this day and age ... not sure one has the time to experiment with...

it seems that everyone interested in engineering, physics and stuff someday gets to a point where he want's to build a perpetuum mobile of some sort, and to the question "will that move for long/forever" ;) (so did I )

it took me until 11th grade physics in school to really understand why it can't work. and recently took me over an hour explanation to a young collegue at work to convince him that a somewhat similar idea with magnets will not work. ;)

a try of a simple explanation: you can't "harvest" the energy of a magnetic field of permanent magnets, you need the same energy to push another magnet into the field as you get out of the field when it pushes the magnet back.

so the maximum energy you could get is the one that you initially used to start the process. (try to look at the wikipedia article about magnetism, at least the german one explains it quite good.

and the example of aol000xw with the steel ball moving up the ramp works, because he puts energy into the "system" when moving the ball into the magnetic field

So it's a matter of minimizing friction/heat loss and drag. Would be nice though if free energy were invented using LEGO.

it seems that everyone interested in engineering, physics and stuff someday gets to a point where he want's to build a perpetuum mobile of some sort, and to the question "will that move for long/forever" ;) (so did I )

it took me until 11th grade physics in school to really understand why it can't work. and recently took me over an hour explanation to a young collegue at work to convince him that a somewhat similar idea with magnets will not work. ;)

a try of a simple explanation: you can't "harvest" the energy of a magnetic field of permanent magnets, you need the same energy to push another magnet into the field as you get out of the field when it pushes the magnet back.

so the maximum energy you could get is the one that you initially used to start the process. (try to look at the wikipedia article about magnetism, at least the german one explains it quite good.

and the example of aol000xw with the steel ball moving up the ramp works, because he puts energy into the "system" when moving the ball into the magnetic field

yeah it's clear that someone has to push it for the first time into the system....but after that, will it continue its path?

i think that if the magnets have an angle of no more than 30° it might work

the repulsive force could be more than the attractive one and in theory it might get to the second magnet and then to the third and bla bla bla

no, the repulsive force is equal to the attractive.

and there is already a repulsive force from the following magnet before you get over the pole. thats the energy you need to put into the car to get it over the pole, and thats the ammount of energy you get "out" when it moves away from the pole, not more. so there is no energy benefit in total.

the repulsive force could be more than the attractive one and in theory it might get to the second magnet and then to the third and bla bla bla

There is a catch here ... the repulsive and attractive forces generated by a magnet are EQUAL and OPPOSITE. There is no such thing as a magnet with a stronger/weaker push/pull force.

The trick, as I said above, is to switch that 'array' of magnets in such a way as to create a 'wave' ... but since we're dealing here with permanent magnets (can't switch on/off), hence the idea of rotating the magnets continuously to mimic a gradual on/off behavior ...

On a different note, and in this day and age ... I have hard time believing people still believe in perpetual motion or free energy (or anything) for that matter ... Makes for an interesting debate nonetheless.

This is the closest thing to free energy in the fantasy world.

A ZPM from Stargate. Enough power to create a force-field around a city whilst under water for 3300 years. Snap.

On a serious note, after thinking about it I believe that you will need a kind of wave either mechanical or electronically. But is fun to think about.

@aol000xw:

What you showed us that isn't a loop, only single straight sections. Show me a similar magnet track which is circle shaped, so continously. That doesn't exists, would be free energy from nothing. FROM NOTHING. The potential energy with the ball you put to the system, will be full consumed by friction few seconds later.

@Piterx:

There is one way to make this work ... but you have to continuously keep moving/rotating the magnets so as to create a magnetic 'traveling wave' onto which the train would ride. This is in essence how some of the high-speed levitating trains work. The catch here is that, while the train may seem to move with little/no effort, you must provide a mechanism to move/rotate the magnets ... or back to one of the earlier posts, the 2nd law of thermodynamics cannot be ignored/violated (conservation of energy).

This would be a working way, but as you can see, power is needed to the system continously. So simple. If you put once the vehicle to the track, and that would run forever, then second law of thermodinamics would be ignored, which is impossible. So if you want to save a few hours of doing the system which won't work (won't work as you imagined, it could be work for a few seconds), you shouldn't do it all.

Energy/power for propulsion won't appear from nothing. For a circle shaped track you need continous power for propulsion (because of friction, drag (air)), a simple potential energy input in the start isn't enough.

It's so simple, believe this:

Angling the magnet won't angle the repulsive force in a way you might think. Magnets can't do free work for you. In order for it to push

you must first increase the potential energy by pushing an object into the field against it. Think of it like gravity. A rollercoaster won't

accelerate down a hill unless you first push it up there.

Magnets create force, not energy. Very important. Because the basic idea of this topic needs energy for keep moving, there is no more a lot of sence to discuss about the original idea.

JM1974:

Someday I want to get a handful of neodymium magnets and use them for a extreme off-road suspension car.

I have about 12 neodinium magnets (bar shaped). They are so strong that it would be the biggest challange to fix them. For long travel suspension for off road cars they are pretty badly usable. Good idea, but the construction would be much more bigger than shocks.

Edited December 4, 201311 yr by Mbmc

it seems that everyone interested in engineering, physics and stuff someday gets to a point where he want's to build a perpetuum mobile of some sort, and to the question "will that move for long/forever" ;)

The big problem with perpetual motion really boils down to the three laws of thermodynamics:

1) You can't win

2) You can't break even.

3) You can't stop playing.

(Okay maybe I spent more time at the card table then the classroom, but you get the point)

The best you can hope for is to minimize loss by trying to control the transduction as much in your favor as you can. Keep in mind that the total mass and energy of a system is always fixed and that only some small portion of that potential is available to effect what you would consider a useful result (such as floating or spinning or rolling) and transducing energy from one form or another is almost always a loss-y process (accidentally created heat, light, chemical bonds, static charge build-up, sound, etc.) All these little losses add up and eventually grind the system to a halt, it's just a matter of time.

That said, you can try to milk it for all it's worth (regenerative brakes, induction generation suspension, thermo-electric coupler heat sinks, etc.) but LEGO doesn't make the right parts to build most of these things and even if they did, the scale would be prohibitive and negatively impact the efficiency. In the end, it's probably easier to live with the loss and accept the fact that you're gong to need a power cord or some batteries to keep pumping energy into the system.

There is no way to make a perpetual motion machine, it's as simple as that. If a magnet passes another magnet, the net work done by each magnet is zero. You can't create energy out of nothing. It is a consequence of the second law of thermodynamics.

Erland

Part Designer, now in TECHNIC team

Part designer, now in the technic team you say? Congratulations . Need any ideas?

@Piterx:

This would be a working way, but as you can see, power is needed to the system continously. So simple. If you put once the vehicle to the track, and that would run forever, then second law of thermodinamics would be ignored, which is impossible. So if you want to save a few hours of doing the system which won't work (won't work as you imagined, it could be work for a few seconds), you shouldn't do it all.

You mis-quoted ... The traveling wave idea is mine ... :)

Edited December 4, 201311 yr by DrJB

Hydroelectricity is perpetual because of the sun causing rain to keep filling the dam, you just need to build a solar system out of lego :P

Sorry but, my training made me draw clear distinctions between the various quantities encountered in dynamics ... when I see terminology such as energy/power/work/force used 'losely', it kind of dilutes the situation ... I could switch hats here and go grom Technic AFOL to dynamics lecturer but ...

Here it is Piterx:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7444/11208502315_d3b23ff734_z.jpg

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2827/11208543746_2bd6cd77a7_z.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3683/11208563356_51777ae6c9_z.jpg

Hope you like it!

@aol000xw:

What you showed us that isn't a loop, only single straight sections. Show me a similar magnet track which is circle shaped, so continously. That doesn't exists, would be free energy from nothing. FROM NOTHING. The potential energy with the ball you put to the system, will be full consumed by friction few seconds later.

I think If you read all my comments you will see I explicitly said that no loop is possible and setting the steel ball in position adds energy to the system. So what is your point?