Ragnarök Now Redux - Day Two

[Darkdragon]

By the way, I read Dagstyrr's quick-fire vote switch in a totally different way. What was the point of casting a minority vote that late in the day, only to change it minutes later for Petr? I know myself and others have asked non-voters to get off their butts and speak their minds, but this looked to me like an attempt to disguise simple bandwagonning.

I read it the same way actually. It looked ridiculously a lot like an excuse for nailing the final vote. I don't really see what would be the point of doing something like that if he's town. I have a hard time deciding whether the scum would have wanted to place that final vote or not.

The reasoning behind it was simple, when I first was catching up with the conversations and voted it looked like time was short so I cast my vote for who I felt (and still feel) is scum. However, after going back through and reading coments I saw that the voting was still so split that if I didn't vote for him there would be no lynch. That's why I switched my vote to someone who was on my suspect list and was able to be lynched, as Namer had no votes on him it made no sense to keep it there for the sake of my own ego or not "looking scummy". I switched my vote knowing full well that these types of comments would be cast toward me for it, but I thought it was the best thing to do at the time.

Today's talk seems to be a lot of the same as yesterday's, I don't have an information to offer or new points to make. I guess that's lazy, it's hard working with no contacts though I guess that's my own fault for not being active enough.

Wilhalm - Has been acting strange as a lot of others have noticed, though he claims a useful role for us so it seems we are giving him the night prove himself. Now claming a role worries me because if he is a killer he will get one more kill, plus it paints a target on his back if he is not scum. That seems like a good plan for scum to possibly find out who our protector is if they have any sort of watching capability.

My vote, as with the first one I placed yesterday, goes to Naemr. I outlined my reasoning yesterday and it has not changed at all. Since the start of the game he has been overly defensive, even the style of posting is more of a defensive style than a discussion style. At the start of this day he was more quiet than I would have expected. In my experience (in life and game) the ones who constantly feel the need to defend are the ones who are feeling guilty, so that's what er...pings me here.

Vote: Naemr Sledgehammer (Captain Nemo)

Funny, last time someone was mod-killed, in the middle of Day 1, as I can recall it. That person was an Einherjar and the affiliation was revealed right away. Perhaps Harald delays because Sigrid is scum. Although I guess I shouldn't read anything into it. As much as I'd like to catch a scum to do it would kind of suck to be given a scum on a silver platter due to being killed by Harald.

I think there was some talk of maybe she wouldn't have to be modkilled if power didn't go out? Though from what I've heard of the area, if it is where I think it is, there is a high chance the power is out due to some major ice storms.

[def]

You said be consistent and I have been. Interesting that you take all arguments as one as if it's one side against you...

Really? Helga isn't aware of all the arguments going on in thread? She isn't combing it for things to use? That's a shock to me.

Dufa, does Lefsi still rub you the wrong way?

I think Rurik asked me the same earlier, I suppose you missed it? I thought he was being scummy on day one, but I have come to understand he simply doesn't know what's going on. Not to inability, but just to inexperience. So, he's not really pinging me now.

True. As people have said, a non-lynch could be beneficial to the Servants. At the same time you want to lynch Sigrid because you expect the Servants wanted to protect her from the lynch by voting for Petr. Sigrid may or may not be a Servant, but I doubt we'll learn much about other people's affiliations from knowing her's.

Particularly when the swing came, when Mursi tried to rally things against Petr, and the votes rapidly switched to Petr. What is not suspicious about that? I don't get it. I really don't. A guy was being quickly lynched, then even faster someone else got lynched. That's something. It's right there. It seems to me that some people are strongly cautioning us not to use any info from a lynch.

And by thinking we won't learn much, certainly we won't learn much about your affiliation, right? You were one of the ones who came in for Petr. Hmm.

That is exactly what you said, though. Even though you think Naemr should know everything's actually random.

I'm pretty sure Wary is town. His reasoning is fair and is honestly active. That one point about Naemr I doubt, because scum usually run down their strategy with teammates, and it never would have passed. Maybe you disagree and think it was a plausible strategy (you must, since you bring it up ). Naemr should know everything's random, or he shouldn't be here. Right?

He's right, you know.

Who's "he"? The connection between those two quotes was a little vague.

Since Sigrid is not going to be here tomorrow anyway:

Unvote: Sigrid

I'm going to reread the rest of the points about Naemr to see if I think it justifies a vote.

So where is everyone else? We've got another 12 hours or so and people are pretty quiet. I know Dufa brought up the point that no scum team would allow Naemr to make the statements he did, but if you'll review the case most of the mess ups were more his bumbling in his retorts as well as his non-committal attitude in the majority of his "non-bumbling" replies.

This is a good point. This reply in particular rubs me the wrong way:

I'll answer questions I want to, and if I don't want to answer them, for if they were asked a signifigant period before I could, then I won't answer them. I stop talking when I want to; generally when no matter what I say, every word that comes out of my mouth makes people suspicious of me--I just stop saying anything.

There are a lot of ways to defend, but pleading the fifth isn't one of them. A townie doesn't give up.

Vote: Naemr (Captain Nemo)

[Fugazi]

Could you clarify how it is not sound considering the information we do have?

Something about you keeps making me uncomfortable. I poked and you responded reasonably, but then in rereading this comment my fear of you grows again. Is this some form of Danish mind trick and you want us to overlook Naemr? Is he not the droid we're looking for? It seems like you either already had your mind up that you were going to follow Helga's suggestion and are just trying to sound helpful or you're trying to play to our fears and avoid us having more to go on. Do you think Naemr is most likely town? Personally, the more I read through the case against Naemr the more I see merits in it. It's a pretty good case for Day 2, yet you toss it out only because you think he didn't run certain comments by his team? That seems somewhat insulting to Naemr, implying that his team wouldn't let him have his own voice.

Yeah, I do think that Naemr is Einherjar and that's why I'm not keen on voting for him right now. Don't be offended, but I'm not convinced by your case against him. It's not sexy. In my opinion it can go either way, his reactions may well be that of a less experienced townie. I am ready to lynch today, but given that we're already losing a Viking who I think is also Einherjar, I'm not ready to lynch just anybody without more evidence. If one of them turns out to be scum, all the better -- but I just don't feel that they will.

I'm still uncomfortable with this, too, and you backtracked from it a bit later but as your first reaction, it doesn't sit well. Voting analysis, simply because it doesn't always nab a scum is not meaningless.

So for now I will Vote: Gofraid the Foog (Fugazi). I'm certainly not positive on this vote but I think of all the people, Gofraid is the one I'm most afraid is actually scum. That's even over Naemr, who I think has a strong case against him. I've stated some of the other reasons for Gofraid earlier. Rurik and Wary have made some additional comments that I agree with, too. I'll admit that Gofraid has had some well thought out responses, but that's exactly what I would expect from him and it still does not sit right with me. So he's my vote.

See, this is what I'm talking about. Not sitting well. You can't really put a finger on it and build a convincing case against me, but you think that I'm scum. I can't justify why I don't think that Scampi and Naemr are scum, it's a hunch based on general impressions.

For the record, right now I'm most suspicious of Canute (where is he, anyway?), Dufa and Snotra. General impressions, nothing solid. Hopefully tomorrow we will know more and have a more productive day.

[CorneliusMurdock]

You and Snotra really want to paint a picture of me rallying a vote against Petr. I voted for him, stated my reasons why I thought his was the better lynch. There's nothing nefarious about it. You have to make it sound that way so you can link me to Sigrid and justify your attitude toward me. At this point I think you're trying subtly convince the Vigilante to kill me because when Sigrid is revealed as town tomorrow, your argument evaporates.

That one point about Naemr I doubt, because scum usually run down their strategy with teammates, and it never would have passed. Maybe you disagree and think it was a plausible strategy (you must, since you bring it up ). Naemr should know everything's random, or he shouldn't be here. Right?

As I mentioned in my private conversation with you, it seems odd that you insist that Naemr would run every statement he makes past a scum team, yet you think a team would have no influence to get Sigrid to be active at all. I've been on scum teams before. Never have I been on one where I've had to have all my posts approved, especially at the beginning when we all assume it's a fluff factory out there. Maybe Naemr thought he was gong to appear useful. He's fairly new to Valhalla.

I'm going to reread the rest of the points about Naemr to see if I think it justifies a vote.

This is a good point. This reply in particular rubs me the wrong way:

There are a lot of ways to defend, but pleading the fifth isn't one of them. A townie doesn't give up.

Vote: Naemr (Captain Nemo)

Now this I don't understand from you. Townies give up all the freakin' time. They shouldn't but they do. You pressed so much for Naemr's innocence despite the argument for it somewhat contradicting your own for Sigrid.

Cutting losses now in case he gets vig killed? Maybe he should have had you approve all of his posts on the writeboard.

Vote: Dufa (def)

Your behavior has not seemed like your townie self all game, in private or public. I've noticed that. But this right here makes me pretty sure that your intentions are not honorable.

[CMP]

For the record, right now I'm most suspicious of Canute (where is he, anyway?)

Still mulling over Wilhalm. I still don't know if I buy his claim or not. It's too convenient. And he was anything but subtle, like he had total disregard for his own safety. But I doubt a scum team could let him do that, plus it's not like clinging onto that suspicion all day is going to help anyone. Unvote: Wilhalm Bloodaxe (WhiteFang).

On a related note, I'm skeptical of anyone who unvotes him purely based on the fact that Sigrid is going to die anyway. That's dumb. If you're unsure enough of Wilhalm to unvote him based on the fact that you're scared of two townie deaths, you shouldn't have voted for him in the first place, since voting for some is a sign that you're suspicious enough of that person to lynch them based on that fact that they're scum. Suddenly everything changes because Sigrid's dying??

I've been a bit busy today. I'll take a look over Naemr's case, I suppose.

[Hinckley]

On a related note, I'm skeptical of anyone who unvotes him purely based on the fact that Sigrid is going to die anyway. That's dumb. If you're unsure enough of Wilhalm to unvote him based on the fact that you're scared of two townie deaths, you shouldn't have voted for him in the first place, since voting for some is a sign that you're suspicious enough of that person to lynch them based on that fact that they're scum.

We don't have the luxury of being sure. We can't base anything on the "fact that they're Scum" because we don't have that information as fact. That's the point of the game. Have you noticed?

[def]

At this point I think you're trying subtly convince the Vigilante to kill me because when Sigrid is revealed as town tomorrow, your argument evaporates.

What? Can you you show any case for that at all? You've said some inane and baseless stuff, but that takes the cake. You did rally against Petr, and votes did swing. That's a fact. I think we should wait for Sigrid allegiance to come in, because, as I already said, if Sigrid is town, you most likely are too, since a scum wouldn't rally to push a lynch of one townie over an other. That is not trying to get the vig to kill you. Learn to read. I know you're being a brick wall, but this is really not asking too much, is it?

As I mentioned in my private conversation with you, it seems odd that you insist that Naemr would run every statement he makes past a scum team, yet you think a team would have no influence to get Sigrid to be active at all. I've been on scum teams before. Never have I been on one where I've had to have all my posts approved, especially at the beginning when we all assume it's a fluff factory out there. Maybe Naemr thought he was gong to appear useful. He's fairly new to Valhalla.

Let's look at what was said, ACTUALLY.

You think scum are more likely to be able to make an inactive member play than to have influence of an active member. That's dumb. I've been on scum teams where someone wasn't active, and you can pester them all you want, but if they don't read the board, that's all you can do. Conversely, active scummies do try to run things by their teammates, and what Naemr wrote would never have passed. You think it would, fine, that's another strike against you. You use (in PM) the example of Flipz totally breaking from his team as an example. That's even dumber. He had a tantrum and exploded. That is not anything like what Naemr did. Your arguments are full of holes, and you're doubling down on them. Vote for me, go for it. I'm town, I know it. I have nothing to hide.

My advice to you is to wake up, read what was actually said rather than trying to make facts fit your pre-established confusion, and stop trying to lynch townies.

*confusion > conclusion

Though I think Mursi's confusion is well established in this case too.

[CMP]

We don't have the luxury of being sure. We can't base anything on the "fact that they're Scum" because we don't have that information as fact. That's the point of the game. Have you noticed?

I know, my point is that fear of a double townie lynch is a dumb reason to unvote someone. If you vote for someone, you should suspect they're scum...but it looks like everyone who unvoted brought up the claim as a reason anyway.

Anyway...in looking back at Naemr, I realized he's the person Mist ended up agreeing with, which was the whole point of me (and others, I believe) being suspicious of her in the first place. She ended up being townie, obviously, but I don't feel my argument there was baseless. And the same argument can be applied to Naemr. What possible connection could the two games have? But Wary aptly brings up his empty defense against being called out on it.

I picked up this little tidbit too.

Is this you trying to appear as helpful by saying I'm leading the conversation in the wrong direction--by saying that I'm not helpful? No--getting the conversation away from extreme role playing is more helpful. If anything, you seem to be avoiding talking about the past--sad that Loki didn't succeed the first time?

Finally, I think it is important that when the kills begin to happen at night, we know who is killed by who--I remember a past life where the town thought they were working with their vig; turns out they were only helping a killer get to the top four. It may not seem important to some people, like you, but we don't want to work with the wrong people until it's too late.

The first paragraph is hilarious. Snotra was townie last time, Naemr. Townie. Why the absolute hell would she be upset they lost last time? Because she's a Servant now and logically she'd've regretted fighting them last time? That's the same sort of roleplaying crap you were so eager to get away from.

Secondly...I found it interesting that the situation you're quoting is the exact opposite of what happened in the last Ragnarok. For someone so intent on finding links between these two games I thought that was pretty off.

[Hinckley]

Really? Helga isn't aware of all the arguments going on in thread? She isn't combing it for things to use? That's a shock to me.

I'm aware of the other arguments but they aren't my arguments. I don't need to stay consistent with their arguments. Why do I have to explain that to you? Maybe your Scum Perspective^TM has you grouping the arguments together in your head since they're coming from Townies.

[Hinckley]

While drawing negative suspicion to myself was not my intent; the main point being I was attempting to help the town; suspicion seems to have happened instead--though I can assure you I'm not scum. Part of my reason for asking about people's experience in the first Ragnarok was for the fact that they had experienced it--conversations from PM for example are not things that can be found from past day threads, but could account for important actions taken. Basically, I'd feel the information would be more useful from a first hand account then from a Day thread. So far it seems though people don't want to talk about it, or rather talk at all today.

---

I did look at the link, as well as some of the other Day threads. Not much to go off of, though I did note that Loki did mention at the conclusion that he had "two-factions" of traitors, which I took to mean scum and neutral; though he then says he forgot to get two factions--and looking back, there were no neutrals during the first Ragnarok, despite the rules indicating there could/would be; perhaps that means Loki will not forget this time?

You can take that information if you like (Anyone), but it's just a thought I had; really my thoughts today have been about conversation that's more useful than roleplaying about ox urine uses. Apparently that makes me suspicious to some, but I'm just putting my thoughts out there.

As I said at least half of us haven't said much today. I said that after noticing you, amongst others, were as quiet as Baulf and Sigrid. Throw Dagstyrr in the mix too if you like. Are you suspicious of him or would you just like to hear my opinion of him? I feel like I suspect everybody and am not sure rattling off any more names will be helpful at this point.

I don't understand what you're asking for then. Do you think people will be able to judge affiliation by specific people's behavior just in the last Ragnarok game? That's weird.

It was a joke. The Einherjar were suspicious that the Servants of Loki were so easy to catch and thought there might be two factions. The host was making a joke. There was only one faction that proved to be very easy to catch.

Just to be a stickler, I don't see anybody else saying Snotra is suspicious.

Just annoying. "For the quote megablocks."

That is a side effect of ox urine treatment.

Those are both true statments about what I said day one. The part of my first post that people took as (And I suppose reading it now, I can see why) defensive was something to the affect of: "while some of you know each other, don't consider all of us newly dead evil...I'll do my best to defend us Einherjar...".

I said this because it was also in reference to the fact that I thought we should look at the old Ragnarok game--and that it would seem only logical that considering the town won the first Ragnarok, then it's likely the new scum are "new" vikings rather than old ones. Obviously this is only speculation, and there's not a way to prove it--and looking on it now, to myself it seems to hindge too much on a "story" then likelyhood of the actual game. And clearly I didn't say it well--though the lack of interest in looking at the old game ended my thoughts about it too (Though metagaming seems big in this one anyways).

Hey...It worked!

Guess I was the 100th caller!

Damn it! No no no no no. Stupid. Sometimes I hate the no editing rule. I hit post for no reason. Like my brain died or something.

[LegoDad]

While I unvoted for Wilhalm, I'm still not completely sold on the claim, but would hate to get rid of him without somebody being being able to check him out first. Problem is, with his claim and his insistence to have the investigator check him out, he's probably going to have a lot of sets of eyes on him tonight, from both sides, and I think the Loki want this. This gives Town 2 options, not watch him and take his word for his claim, or watch and risk getting picked off by the Scum because they're watching him, too.

Naemr's idea about the last Ragnarok and new Vikings being possible scum is pretty out there, but his defenses and and basically refusing to talk about it anymore seems like giving up. Not really town telling.

Vote: Naemr ( Captain Nemo)

Wary was on my list at the beginning of the day, but has since pretty much calmed my fears about him as he's been one of the more helpful and talkative today as opposed to yesterday.

Petryk also bothers me a bit when he seemed to be fishing for some info by asking me how I was going to get information from Wilhalm when it's pretty obvious how that would be taken care of at night.

It still seems to me that a lot of voting is waiting until the bitter end like yesterday. I find that odd, but maybe that's the cast of characters we have here in Valhalla.

[MagPiesRUs]

Vote Count

Naemr Sledgehammer (Captain Nemo): 6 votes (Waterbrick Down, Rick, Palathadric, Darkdragon, def, LegoDad)

Sigrid (Sisco): 1 vote (Scubacarrot)

Gofraif the Foog (Fugazi): 1 vote (fhomess)

Dufa the Godless (def): 1 vote (Cornelius Murdock)

Yet to vote: 8 (WhiteFang, Fugazi, Hinckley, Sisco, Bob, Captain Nemo, jamesn, CallMePie)

9 votes are required to convict. 4 hours remain in the day.

[CorneliusMurdock]

Here's how Dufa wants you to think the writeboard would be like:

Scum 1: I'm going to open with "Oh, no! Loki's evil and we should kill all the scum!" is that okay to post guys?

Scum 2: I approve but you should wait for the others to voice their opinions before posting it.

Scum 1: You're absolutely right. Let's wait all day for any time zone differences to allow them to see this marvelous post of mine.

I know, reductio ad absurdem. But Naemr had what to a relatively inexperienced person might consider a post that seemed to be helpful. Sure, a team might have nixed it, but a team works in real time. I don't see how this is any more likely than the argument that Sigrid would be told by a team to post more, a behavior that happened over the course of a full (in game) day and night along with most of another day. A scum team would have plenty of time to contact a lazy player about the behavior. We know she posted in that time frame, so she would have seen it.

And now after all this insistence, Dufa says that "A townie never gives up" is good enough to vote for Naemr. That pushes me over about you.

Though I think Mursi's confusion is well established in this case too.

Backpedaling already, are we? I'm just confused now and not scummy. In this whole post you never once called me scummy. Just implied I was stupid.

This is not what I'd expect of you.

[Hinckley]

Ahem... pardon my last post.

I did. (Post #87 Day one, and your reply to it at #93).

So this:

I did look at the link, as well as some of the other Day threads. Not much to go off of, though I did note that Loki did mention at the conclusion that he had "two-factions" of traitors, which I took to mean scum and neutral; though he then says he forgot to get two factions--and looking back, there were no neutrals during the first Ragnarok, despite the rules indicating there could/would be; perhaps that means Loki will not forget this time?

Here you say you're looking for clues like maybe there are two Scum factions or Neutrals this time.

I don't understand what you're asking for then. Do you think people will be able to judge affiliation by specific people's behavior just in the last Ragnarok game? That's weird.

You had said you wanted to hear people opinions and PM-interactions, etc. I asked you to clarify and you never responded. But at no point did you mention this:

I said this because it was also in reference to the fact that I thought we should look at the old Ragnarok game--and that it would seem only logical that considering the town won the first Ragnarok, then it's likely the new scum are "new" vikings rather than old ones.

Why didn't you mention this the first time? I don't like the argument "If they're Scum their team would've advised them, etc..." BUT, I have played on Scum teams where advice was given to a less experienced player and they didn't know how to follow through.

[WhiteFang]

The way to participate is not by sharing facts, it's by posting your thoughts, replying to thoughts other people bring up, etc. If you truly are the Psych, you haven't done us a big favour by sharing concrete facts, i.e. claiming.

Sharing facts, in my opinion is also a way to share your participation. I have been carefully noticing people that has been hitting me hard in Day 1 and Day 2. What did I exactly do to make them felt that way, and the probable reason is myself being seen too helpful and re-highlighting others' statements, is a suspicions to me?

Ok, then in my case, I will state my suspicions at this point in time, is Canute for being overly targeting at my statements without even explaining for himself or his own actions but merely pointing accusations in my day statements. If he truly want to test the robust of my statements, then is he cleared of anything at all that warrant his accusations against me?

As for the suspected SK, it is very hard to get a read based on the day action as that likely candidate may blend well in the daily scene and that is my job to ponder about, provided if I am still around.

Why did you chose to "clear" someone, instead of targeting someone you expected to be the SK? Did you or did you not suspect Gofraid of being the SK?

I targeted Gofraid because it is based on my gut feeling to make sure that he will not be a threat to me and to clear my own suspicions, so I can have my own trust-able listing that I hope to contact in private, if require. Yes, there is a risk in doing so, but I won't be doing it alone.

To the Servants of Loki, I may or may not be a threat to them directly since I had exposed my role in early Day 2 and my job is going after the SK. If the SK enjoy/want to go after the fellow random townies at night and in the process hopefully he/she can target a servant, then we could have won, but I highly doubt we could trust Lady Luck on this. I just pray that I can reach the SK before it is too late.

[jimmynick]

Who's "he"? The connection between those two quotes was a little vague.

Wary was right that Naemr didn't answer the question.

Sigrid is the better choice, statistically. Add to that the fact that Sigrid has been incredibly quiet. Sounds like someone willing to sit back and let others fight while she gets ignored in the kerfluffel.

I don't like that you were all over Sigrid today. You didn't believe "Sigrid can't be scum because she should have had better scum-buddy coaching" and then you said Naemr probably isn't scum because he should have been coached into not saying stupid things. And then you vote for Naemr.

Also, early in the day you were very keen on telling us to vote for Sigrid or Mursi. I'm not feeling good about you, so:

Vote: Dufa the Goddess (def)

[Waterbrick Down]

Wary was right that Naemr didn't answer the question.

I don't like that you were all over Sigrid today. You didn't believe "Sigrid can't be scum because she should have had better scum-buddy coaching" and then you said Naemr probably isn't scum because he should have been coached into not saying stupid things. And then you vote for Naemr.

Also, early in the day you were very keen on telling us to vote for Sigrid or Mursi. I'm not feeling good about you, so:

Vote: Dufa the Goddess (def)

I'm fine with you suspecting Dufa, but how is placing a vote against him helping us move things forward? Votes placed after a sealed lynch I can understand, but this. Same goes for you Mursi. Canute, you brought up another good fact about Naemr, are you going to act on it?

[MagPiesRUs]

Vote Count

Naemr Sledgehammer (Captain Nemo): 6 votes (Waterbrick Down, Rick, Palathadric, Darkdragon, def, LegoDad)

Dufa the Godless (def): 2 votes (Cornelius Murdock, jamesn)

Sigrid (Sisco): 1 vote (Scubacarrot)

Gofraid the Foog (Fugazi): 1 vote (fhomess)

Non-voters: 7 (WhiteFang, Fugazi, Hinckley, Sisco, Bob, Captain Nemo, CallMePie)

The day has ended with no conviction. A conclusion will be posted shortly. You have 24 hours to send in your night actions.

[MagPiesRUs]

The sun began to set, and the einherjar had failed to reach a consensus for the day. However, in order to fulfill Valhalla's stringent murder quota, Sigrid (Sisco) offered herself up for execution.

Harald stepped forward, axe in hand, and asked: "Sigrid, do you have any last words?"

"..."

"..."

"Ah, of course! You aren't allowed to talk," Harald remembered, and grabbed a stone tablet from the table, "here, write it down for us."

Sigrid quickly began to carve away at the tablet as Harald and the others waited with bated breath.

Finally, satisfied with her answer, Sigrid finished writing.

Sigrid passed the runic inscription to Harald.

Harald cleared his throat and proceeded to read it aload:

"It says: 'No. I do not have any last words.'"

With that, Harald raised his axe...

... And chopped Sigrid's head off.

She was dead.

You have 18.5 hours to send in your night actions.