Ragnarök Now Redux - Day Two

[def]

That would assume that the Scum team is practicing every one of their statements before posting. So let's just ignore every time someone slips up because if they were Scum they'd probably receive better coaching. Dufa, you said it's not a defense, but it sounds like one, and a weak one at that.

You know what? I'm pretty tired of this. Sigrid couldn't be scum, because he would have been coached better, I've been told more than once, though I disagree. Now apparently I'm defending Naemr because I think what he wrote would be unlikely to get through the scum process. Stick with one theory to attack/discredit me. Consistency, you know?

Sorry, but this is the point where things are just getting stupid. I wasn't saying any of the people examining my ideas were scum because I could, in most places, see their point. But to have contradictory points laid out on me repeatedly, it stinks. A few times is coincidence, but this many times, some scum are involved.

[LegoDad]

Since I think at the very least, we should confirm Wilhalm's claim:

Unvote: Wilhalm(Whitefang)

[Hinckley]

You know what? I'm pretty tired of this. Sigrid couldn't be scum, because he would have been coached better, I've been told more than once, though I disagree. Now apparently I'm defending Naemr because I think what he wrote would be unlikely to get through the scum process. Stick with one theory to attack/discredit me. Consistency, you know?

Where did I say that about Sigrid?

[def]

Where did I say that about Sigrid?

Not you. I used the passive form, not the transitive. Rurik has for sure, I think Gofraid, can't remember. It's out there though.

[Fugazi]

As Wary pointed out, it should be obvious you're paying attention. It looks like you were trying hard to blend in and change your vote to not stand out "if the consensus shifted"... on someone you knew was Einherjar?

It's your interpretation, and I still think that you're reading too much into insignificant words. I can hardly defend myself against "looks like I'm trying hard to blend in". If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

I do think that Sigrid would have been whipped to any kind of action by her team had she been scum, and the events will tell us soon enough. And this also would apply to Naemr as Dufa mentions, although I disagree that one bad slip is more likely to be caught in time than a non-posting attitude. Perhaps Naemr didn't run his theory by his team, or the timing didn't allow him to. Whereas a non-poster will likely be badgered repeatedly until they come up with something to try and shift the focus away, which in Sigrid's case never happened.

[Hinckley]

Not you. I used the passive form, not the transitive. Rurik has for sure, I think Gofraid, can't remember. It's out there though.

You said be consistent and I have been. Interesting that you take all arguments as one as if it's one side against you...

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

It's a duck!!

Sorry... I couldn't help myself.

[Fugazi]

It's a duck!!

Pin pon!

[Waterbrick Down]

Please don't take this as a defines of Naemr, but...

With my suspicion of Sigrid, there is this talk of what a scum team would and wouldn't allow. Now, in Sigrid's case, I don't think he did anything that a scum team wouldn't allow/could stop. But this? Proposing that scum could be found based on surviving players from the last time around? I imagine him writing it on the scum board, and everyone saying NO! DON'T! The only plausible thing I could see is him saying, "it'll be so out there, I can't possibly be scum." But I think that's too complicated.

A lot of players in early games miss this fundamental point, that roles are to be selected by random. Except when the host doesn't know how to host right, but I don't think this is that kind of game. So, I'd chalk this one up to Naemr needing to expand his fundamentals.

Or he could have been trying to come off as a confused townie, but now we're into WIFOM. However the case isn't just built around that one statement. He repeatedly ignored questions and the majority of his posts have been non-commital and non-confrontational, additionally he has been absent from some of the most pertinent discussions where it concerns suspects even when he led the vote against one of them.

[Captain Nemo]

I missed this until Rurik pointed it out. I can't imagine who would think this would be how to hunt Scum. And you never followed through on looking at the first game. Ping.

I did. (Post #87 Day one, and your reply to it at #93).

So this post pinged me earlier today, but I've just now had the time to look back on some of Naemr's previous statements. All he did here was summarize all the reasons the Sigrid and Wilhalm were scummy, but how in the end he's not going to vote for either of them. Essentially a "I'm not voting but I don't want to be accused of not saying anything" post. Now that both suspects are pretty much off the table it's not really of any consequence, but it did inspire me to analyze some of his earlier behavior.

The obligatory initial roleplaying, though when called out by Helga about subtly defending himself he never did answer, seems like he might have been trying to skirt the question.

Just answered that a few posts above, though it was immediatly called out as BS (By Rurik). And frankly it was just a situation that never whould have occured if I worded or left out the phrase.

One of the first serious comments made yesterday and unless I'm mistaken, sparked the whole initial suspicion of Wilhalm for terming it sensible. Seems like a sincere question, though as Dufa, Snorta, Rurik, and myself made clear ultimately a fruitless one since nothing should be assumed about this entire situation. It is strange though that he asked about previous experience instead of looking up the records himself. An honest Einherjar would put in the time and effort I would think, a servant of Loki would inquire to sound productive and helpful without the need of actually looking up stuff. Helga brought this fact up and Naemr countered with:

But if we look at his initial clarification he made before that about the information he was seeking:

If his retort to Helga was true, why hadn't he clarified that in his original request? Even so, let's assume he actually meant that he wanted "private" information, if you look at his first statement it's filled with back-pedaling attitude and attempts to assuage any suspicion "I can assure you I'm not scum" and "drawing suspicion to myself was not my intent" duh?

I've talked about this enough, and I don't and won't, talk about it more. I was intending to get a sense of the last game; it may have been foolish, but it was better trying to strike up conversation that was not about ox piss. You can take that as I'm being scummy or whatever. Regardless, you say it was a fruitless attempt and yet still hold me to this as being solid evidence of my scuminess.

Again Naemr slips by without answering the question and the day continues with us moving onto debating Wilhalm vs. Sigrid.

I'm just going to sum up the rest of your replies to my quotes at once since it's easier and then less confusing for everyone. I'll answer questions I want to, and if I don't want to answer them, for if they were asked a signifigant period before I could, then I won't answer them. I stop talking when I want to; generally when no matter what I say, every word that comes out of my mouth makes people suspicious of me--I just stop saying anything. This seems to be becoming the trend now; as everything I say is deemed suspicious. I also vote for the people I think are the most suspicious, and I'll vote when I want--ergo I thought Petr was suspicious, so I voted for him--it happened to be the first vote for him; there were many "1st" votes on people that day--as you said I didn't promote my vote afterword either, apparently other people came to the same conclusion.

You are making a mistake voting for me. As I am town and I am here to help stop this new onslaught of Loki scums.

[Waterbrick Down]

I did. (Post #87 Day one, and your reply to it at #93).

Actually you addressed your reason for wanting to look back at the day, you did not address your reason for suggesting that people would assume new vikings are scum.

Just answered that a few posts above, though it was immediatly called out as BS (By Rurik). And frankly it was just a situation that never whould have occured if I worded or left out the phrase.

Just because you responded to it, doesn't make it not scummy. And saying that the situation shouldn't have occured in the first place is simply a cop out for a bad move on your part.

I've talked about this enough, and I don't and won't, talk about it more. I was intending to get a sense of the last game; it may have been foolish, but it was better trying to strike up conversation that was not about ox piss. You can take that as I'm being scummy or whatever. Regardless, you say it was a fruitless attempt and yet still hold me to this as being solid evidence of my scuminess.

Bringing up a serious subject of conversation is not my issue, my issue is that you "tried" to look helpful by bringing up a serious issue (old games) but you asked a question that you could have easily answered by reading up on the previous Ragnarok, you were trying to appear proactive as opposed to actually being proactive. A proactive townie would have gone and read the past accounts and then come back and made some observations about stuff we should watch out for (granted since this is an entirely different event, nothing could really be taken as fact for the time being).

I'm just going to sum up the rest of your replies to my quotes at once since it's easier and then less confusing for everyone. I'll answer questions I want to, and if I don't want to answer them, for if they were asked a signifigant period before I could, then I won't answer them. I stop talking when I want to; generally when no matter what I say, every word that comes out of my mouth makes people suspicious of me--I just stop saying anything. This seems to be becoming the trend now; as everything I say is deemed suspicious.

What sort of attitude is this? Everyone is suspicious, no one can escape questioning just because they "want" to, your setting yourself above the standard that we are all held too is very off-putting and in no way helpful to a town, where are best resources are questioning people and having conversations.

I also vote for the people I think are the most suspicious, and I'll vote when I want--ergo I thought Petr was suspicious, so I voted for him--it happened to be the first vote for him; there were many "1st" votes on people that day--as you said I didn't promote my vote afterword either, apparently other people came to the same conclusion.

You had no need to promote your vote, it was a "safe" early vote in order to spread out the scum vote to avoid looking like a scummy bunch. The point that you didn't say anything after that has me worried because the rest of the us were sure having a hard time figuring things out for the rest of the day.

You are making a mistake voting for me. As I am town and I am here to help stop this new onslaught of Loki scums.

No I don't think I am and your saying that you are town is nothing but a filler statement.

I find your defense lacking and void addresses to the main accusations, your behavior non-committal, and your attitude concerning how you're not accountable to the rest of us very off putting.

So where is everyone else? We've got another 12 hours or so and people are pretty quiet. I know Dufa brought up the point that no scum team would allow Naemr to make the statements he did, but if you'll review the case most of the mess ups were more his bumbling in his retorts as well as his non-committal attitude in the majority of his "non-bumbling" replies.

[Fugazi]

There's still time to build a better case for a lynch, though if that doesn't materialise we could indeed settle for the information the death of Sigrid will provide.

So where is everyone else? We've got another 12 hours or so and people are pretty quiet. I know Dufa brought up the point that no scum team would allow Naemr to make the statements he did, but if you'll review the case most of the mess ups were more his bumbling in his retorts as well as his non-committal attitude in the majority of his "non-bumbling" replies.

This is not exactly the solid case I was hoping for, and we are again in danger of losing an indecent number of townies. But speaking of 'everyone else', there were a number of votes made yesterday that people don't seem to follow through. Baulf, have you changed your mind about Snotra? Dagstyrr, Snotra, I would have thought that you would support the case against Naemr. Dufa, does Lefsi still rub you the wrong way? Finn, what happened to your suspicions of Jarni? Patrekr, you were also wary of Lefsi yesterday. What has changed today?

[Waterbrick Down]

This is not exactly the solid case I was hoping for, and we are again in danger of losing an indecent number of townies. But speaking of 'everyone else', there were a number of votes made yesterday that people don't seem to follow through. Baulf, have you changed your mind about Snotra? Dagstyrr, Snotra, I would have thought that you would support the case against Naemr. Dufa, does Lefsi still rub you the wrong way? Finn, what happened to your suspicions of Jarni? Patrekr, you were also wary of Lefsi yesterday. What has changed today?

Could you clarify how it is not sound considering the information we do have?

[Scubacarrot]

Snotra, I would have thought that you would support the case against Naemr.

No?

[Rick]

If I wanted no lynch, wouldn't it be way better to just leave things as they were, with people splitting the votes all over the place? I know you don't trust me, but saying I wanted a no-lynch makes no sense to me whatsoever. I don't think there would have been a lynch at all without me, or at least without someone stepping in and doing what I did. My big concern was going into day two with no information at all, as, as you say, a no lynch helps the Servants.

True. As people have said, a non-lynch could be beneficial to the Servants. At the same time you want to lynch Sigrid because you expect the Servants wanted to protect her from the lynch by voting for Petr. Sigrid may or may not be a Servant, but I doubt we'll learn much about other people's affiliations from knowing her's.

It's because if I don't start defending myself by providing and sharing concrete facts in public, I will likely to end up getting convicted by an angry mob. It leave me with little luxurious choice.

The way to participate is not by sharing facts, it's by posting your thoughts, replying to thoughts other people bring up, etc. If you truly are the Psych, you haven't done us a big favour by sharing concrete facts, i.e. claiming.

I only cleared him of not being a SK. I agreed that there is a risk that he is one of the Servants. Being so far in Night 1, I can only choose based on my initial gut feeling since I can't decide 100% at that point in time. I didn't want to reveal it out but since I may be targeted at night, it will be helpful that this information does not go down with me.

Why did you chose to "clear" someone, instead of targeting someone you expected to be the SK? Did you or did you not suspect Gofraid of being the SK?

Not you. I used the passive form, not the transitive. Rurik has for sure, I think Gofraid, can't remember. It's out there though.

I said I don't see what makes her look so scummy in your eyes. I never said she couldn't be a Servant.

Just answered that a few posts above, though it was immediatly called out as BS (By Rurik). And frankly it was just a situation that never whould have occured if I worded or left out the phrase.

You're not new to these kinds of situations and you really should, and probably do, know better than to suggest that the new vikings are the Servants.

I've talked about this enough, and I don't and won't, talk about it more. I was intending to get a sense of the last game; it may have been foolish, but it was better trying to strike up conversation that was not about ox piss. You can take that as I'm being scummy or whatever. Regardless, you say it was a fruitless attempt and yet still hold me to this as being solid evidence of my scuminess.

It's not about your initial statement, which was unhelpful, but about your crazy justification for it.

As I am town and I am here to help stop this new onslaught of Loki scums.

Right... you're very helpful with this attitude.

[jimmynick]

Now apparently I'm defending Naemr because I think what he wrote would be unlikely to get through the scum process.

That is exactly what you said, though. Even though you think Naemr should know everything's actually random.

I imagine him writing it on the scum board, and everyone saying NO! DON'T! The only plausible thing I could see is him saying, "it'll be so out there, I can't possibly be scum." But I think that's too complicated.

Actually you addressed your reason for wanting to look back at the day, you did not address your reason for suggesting that people would assume new vikings are scum.

He's right, you know.

[fhomess]

Finn, what happened to your suspicions of Jarni?

Jarni has been more helpful than when I voted yesterday and I don't have a strong feeling about him anymore. It seems now more like he's trying to help root out scum.

You call out Patrekr for his suspicions of Lefsi, but Rurik seemed every bit as concerned about him yesterday. Perhaps Rurik can answer the same question for us as to whether he still has suspicions of Lefsi.

[Rick]

Perhaps Rurik can answer the same question for us as to whether he still has suspicions of Lefsi.

Yes, I said so when you asked about my suspicions this morning.

[Rick]

It has gotten awfully quiet in here. Baulf and Dagstyrr, your non-participation is getting annoying. Dagstyrr, you're normally a lot more active and it's getting suspicious.

I'm going for a little nap soon and I doubt I can be back before this day ends. I don't think Sisco's lynch or inevitable death by other means will give us anything conclusive on other vikings and I just don't see what makes her so suspicious to some. Lefsi's "slipups" still don't sit well with me and Wilhalm hasn't really explained why he choose Gofraid as a target to "clear" last night. I also don't understand why he claimed relatively early, earlier today. Furthermore, Psych is a convenient claim for a Servant to make. I agree with Wary's analysis of Naemr's contributions. It seems like he's desperately trying to justify his comment at the start of day one and in a lot of his posts he only seems concerned with getting people of his back. I think he's our best bet for nailing a Servant today.

Vote: Naemr Sledgehammer (Captain Nemo)

At the current pace, I doubt anyone will get convicted today and, while I understand the fear of convicting another Einherjar, I'm also afraid we won't make any progress if we don't start voting.

[Palathadric]

Strange...I don't see his initial post as comic sans but when I quote your post there is a comic sans font tag around Mursi's post.

No idea if Sigrid is scum or not, she hasn't said anything really. I have to agree with others from yesterday that if we'd have lynched her we would have no more data to look back to at all. As sad as it is to have so many of us dead today, I do think that the lynch of Petr will give us the most info to go by. Now is the time for some serious analysis of yesterday and I think we will find a scum slip-up in there.

Naemr is still under suspicion to me, though the mislynch of Petr does make me reconsider my thought processes from yesterday.

Is this all we're getting from you in the whole day? I fail to understand what you're trying to do if you're town.

[Darkdragon]

Is this all we're getting from you in the whole day? I fail to understand what you're trying to do if you're town.

No, as you can plainly see, I am in here right now. I'm trying to catch up. You know that storm Sigrid (Sisco) had? I think I'm about an hour north of him because it sounds like the same storm that took us last night. I'll be in here reading a bit then post my actual findings/thoughts/vote/etc

[Palathadric]

I have a proposal. It looks like we will lose Sigrid no matter what we do. If we lynch someone in addition, we take a huge risk. I don't feel we have enough solid leads to risk losing two players who may both be Einherjar.

Helga has a point about lynching now that we're assured a mod kill. With the possiblity of three kills a night, we're going to drop like flies if we're not careful.

Wouldn't it be better that we decide together who to vote on rather than just letting the vig find whoever he thinks is good? The vig is working with us, so if we tell him not to kill, he will probably not kill unless he's very convinced the person he's killing is scum. Voting also gives us the opportunity to analyze. Though at this point, it seems unlikely we'll get a lynch.

Something I find odd, but i'm sure we all found that odd is the three kills. All of them were suspects yesterday. Why would scum want to kill off one of the town's suspects? I half wonder if one of them claimed something in thread to get someone off their backs and that person happened to be scum. I can't see why else they would knock off one of our suspects.

I'm just going to sum up the rest of your replies to my quotes at once since it's easier and then less confusing for everyone. I'll answer questions I want to, and if I don't want to answer them, for if they were asked a signifigant period before I could, then I won't answer them. I stop talking when I want to; generally when no matter what I say, every word that comes out of my mouth makes people suspicious of me--I just stop saying anything. This seems to be becoming the trend now; as everything I say is deemed suspicious.

This has to be the oddest post of the game. If you're going to be doing whatever you want whenever you want, how is that helpful to town? Hey, Wilhalm, maybe you have a person to try your psychiatry on tonight.

Since I think at the very least, we should confirm Wilhalm's claim:

Unvote: Wilhalm(Whitefang)

How are you planning on confirming his claim exactly?

[fhomess]

Yes, I said so when you asked about my suspicions this morning.

Ah yes, very well then...

I have to say that this day has had some moments but the latter half of the day has been extremely frustrating. The conversation seems strangely limited to a handful of participants. I think the idea of a no lynch in light of Sigrid's departure may not have been the best idea after all if it was going to prevent the type of discussion we're going to need to look back on in future days. This can't be the level of townie participation we get if we're to eliminate the Servants.

We've got very little from Dagstyrr again today. I look forward to what she has to say later.

Patrekr, earlier you said that that you thought there was still a scum between Naemr, Wilhalm, and Mist. How do you feel about Naemr in light of Wilhalm's claime and Wary's case against him? You suggest Wilhalm target him, so are you saying now you think he's the SK rather than potentially scum?

This is not exactly the solid case I was hoping for, and we are again in danger of losing an indecent number of townies.

Something about you keeps making me uncomfortable. I poked and you responded reasonably, but then in rereading this comment my fear of you grows again. Is this some form of Danish mind trick and you want us to overlook Naemr? Is he not the droid we're looking for? It seems like you either already had your mind up that you were going to follow Helga's suggestion and are just trying to sound helpful or you're trying to play to our fears and avoid us having more to go on. Do you think Naemr is most likely town? Personally, the more I read through the case against Naemr the more I see merits in it. It's a pretty good case for Day 2, yet you toss it out only because you think he didn't run certain comments by his team? That seems somewhat insulting to Naemr, implying that his team wouldn't let him have his own voice.

I am well aware that your main conclusion (i.e. Gofraid is your top scum) is faulty, therefore I propose that the whole thing is meaningless -- no offence meant.

I'm still uncomfortable with this, too, and you backtracked from it a bit later but as your first reaction, it doesn't sit well. Voting analysis, simply because it doesn't always nab a scum is not meaningless.

So for now I will Vote: Gofraid the Foog (Fugazi). I'm certainly not positive on this vote but I think of all the people, Gofraid is the one I'm most afraid is actually scum. That's even over Naemr, who I think has a strong case against him. I've stated some of the other reasons for Gofraid earlier. Rurik and Wary have made some additional comments that I agree with, too. I'll admit that Gofraid has had some well thought out responses, but that's exactly what I would expect from him and it still does not sit right with me. So he's my vote.

If Naemr gets close enough to be lynched and I'm back before the day ends, I will switch to him to secure it as I would be comfortable with lynching him today even in light of Sigrid's situation. Maybe this can spur some people on to consider voting as well. If we are to have a no lynch day, then hopefully people will at least freely vote for whoever they think is the scummiest right now. That will give us something to go on for future days. Keeping quiet will not give us anything to go on tomorrow.

[Palathadric]

Patrekr, earlier you said that that you thought there was still a scum between Naemr, Wilhalm, and Mist. How do you feel about Naemr in light of Wilhalm's claime and Wary's case against him? You suggest Wilhalm target him, so are you saying now you think he's the SK rather than potentially scum?

What I meant was that he seems to have purely selfish intentions at heart and doesn't even seem to have an team-considerations, so he could be SK and not scum. All the same, it was still a joke kind of. I've never "caught" an SK before, and I don't really know how it works. Right now I'd certainly lean more towards Naemr being scum than Wilhalm. The case against him is quite good and though there's still that nagging feeling inside that he's not scum, his is definitely the best case we have that I can see. So I feel more comfortable voting him than anyone else.

Vote: Naemr Sledgehammer (Captain Nemo)

[MagPiesRUs]

Vote Count

Naemr Sledgehammer (Captain Nemo): 3 votes (Waterbrick Down, Rick, Palathadric)

Sigrid (Sisco): 2 votes (def, Scubacarrot)

Wilhalm Bloodaxe (WhiteFang): 1 vote (CallMePie)

Gofraif the Foog (Fugazi): 1 vote (fhomess)

Yet to vote: 10 (Cornelius Murdock, WhiteFang, Fugazi, Hinckley, LegoDad, Sisco, Darkdragon, Bob, Captain Nemo, jamesn)

9 votes are required to convict. 8 hours remain in the day.

[Palathadric]

Funny, last time someone was mod-killed, in the middle of Day 1, as I can recall it. That person was an Einherjar and the affiliation was revealed right away. Perhaps Harald delays because Sigrid is scum. Although I guess I shouldn't read anything into it. As much as I'd like to catch a scum to do it would kind of suck to be given a scum on a silver platter due to being killed by Harald.