CuuSoo rule changes - Impacts?

[The Real Indiana Jones]

Yes, a lot of these rules have been in their Official Guidelines for a while, but most people just didn't see it, or didn't read it.

It's great that they're clarifying things now, and I'm glad that they are starting to enforce the rules with the threat of deletion!

Personally, I'll gladly update my project, and even delete things if necessary, if it means that everyone has to follow the rules! =)

[Aanchir]

^I can only assume that the Back to the Future set was produced in a much higher quantity than 10 or 20 thousand right? Or is that just the initial batch?

Just the initial batch. The size and number of subsequent batches is decided according to how well the first batch sold.

[BrickG]

This kills a surprising majority of projects completely. While they had little hope they now have zero hope. Zelda, despite being voted in over and over, will just never happen :P.

[Meatman]

Interesting ... Those figures are public???

You can believe anything you read, but you can also make an educated guess if you work in the field ...

Well when videos of Lego's manufacturing system are produced and claims are made in those videos that a single mold can cost upwards of $250,000 based on the complexity of the part, I tend to believe them.

[DrJB]

Fair enough, that still seems quite a bit of dough for a mold ...

[Faefrost]

I like the way that have been more explicit about "new parts" and not showing your models with new element designs in them (e.g. the Zelda headpiece) or with 3rd party/clone brand parts. I do wonder what they would do if you showed a model featuring long-discontinued parts. I also wonder what the policy is regarding existing parts in new colors (we know they can green-light such things for Cuusoo sets, look at Doc's hair in the BTTF set)

I also like the rejection of things that contain mostly minifigs with no specific set idea attached or of "theme" ideas with no clearly defined set.

I would assume that projects built using legitimate but discontinued Lego parts would proceed normally. If they make it to review they would then be evaluated as to whether there was a newer viable part solution. If no then the project fails review. The takeaway is you are better off using current parts. And a monorail while technically within the rules somewhat, will never pass review. So it would at best be a protest project. The same for projects who's geometry requires old style finger hinges.

[Faefrost]

Fair enough, that still seems quite a bit of dough for a mold ...

Lego bricks are of astonishing precision with very very tight tolerances. Remember the whole concept of "System" where bricks must connect to every other brick in a variety of ways, every time. So the main molds for the ABS construction elements are designed for millions of cycles using high temperature high pressure plastics. It's a far cry from the molds needed for something like the arms and legs of an action figure. Lego's specs are probably some of the highest for any Injection Molded Plastics manufacturers. With tolerances probably approaching auto or aircraft engines in some regards. (I don't say that lightly. It's just that in most cases IP plastics don't need quite such tight tolerances.) And many of Lego's molds are expected to work for millions of shots. So yeah a lot of Lego's molds are extremely expensive. This more than anything is the difference between Lego and the questionable quality of the clone brands. (Here's one of the dirty little secrets about all of those specialty parts that Megabloks uses. Have you ever noticed that they just aren't that useful outside of the set they were designed for? Or a very narrow application? That's because they don't actually have the degree of connectivity, and thus precision of the more typical bricks.)

Also remember that for Lego the tooling and molds are the core of the business. They are the principled value asset. So if they pick and choose what molds to make carefully they easily recoup the expense and turn a major profit with new tooling. The secret to that is to only commission new tooling when you can clearly see a path to amortizing the costs. Regular retail sets like Ninjago can offer such possibilities. Unfortunately CuuSoo and certain specialty D2C type sets do not. (Note we don't get exclusive new tooling in Modulars).

[ShaydDeGrai]

(snip) From my time working in the tire industry, making a new tire mold costs about $30k. Based on the geometric complexity, I'd think tire molds are much much more expensive than Lego molds. (snip)

Actually the materials that tires are made from allow them the use cheaper molding technologies (such as balloon molding, thermal stamping, after-molding milling, etc.) that take advantage of the material properties (flexibility, viscosity, tensile strength, etc.) so, despite the end "shape" looking very complex, the amount of engineering that went into achieving that shape is actually a bit simpler (or at least a different school of thought). For example, you can do a lot more with pneumatics and in-mold vulcanization of a soft blank and pull (or suck) a hollow form through a hole too small to accommodate the finished piece when dealing with flexible materials, techniques that simply don't work with rigid ones that require clean separation planes. In addition tires only need to mate to one surface and even then it has a high tolerance. If tires were as constrained (manufacturing-wise) as a Lego brick, you'd never need tire balancing weights or tire pressure gauges because every wheel (and its hub) would be identical in size, density and weight and there'd be no micro-gaps around the value, one the surface or along the hub for air to bleed off. Tires are comparatively cheap to manufacture because early on, engineers recognized where they could trade-off tolerances and maintenance expense. Lego is different. If you extend the auto engineering mindset to construction toys, you get MegaBlocks (warped pieces, poor clutch strength, cracking, color variation, uneven weathering, etc.) I'm sure MegaBlock's molds cost less that Lego's.

I'm not saying that the auto industry produces crap (the way MegaBlocks does) but when you buy a car, you have an expectation that it will need regular maintenance and that expectation feeds back on the manufacturing process to keep initial costs down. The engineers know they're cutting corners, but the consequence of those decisions is seen as economically acceptable.

Based on my own work with rubber, ABS and Polycarbonate I think the closest analogy (beyond Lego's own (massive) tire molding operation) to your real tire example would probably be flexible minifigure hair pieces (like they used to have with Exo-force and show up from time to time when a part is too spiky to be kid-safe if it were in ABS). These parts only have one mating surface, and, depending on their complexity might be doable with a 1 or 2 part mold. These are probably also some of the cheapest and most long lasting molds in TLG inventory. By comparison there are some technic parts that clearly require a multi-part molds and at an industry average of 50K USD _per molding plate_ for a precision ABS molding system it's easy to believe that a four or five part mold could run in the quarter of mill range.

I don't mean to discount your expertise with tire molding; I've seen monster truck tires being made and it's a fascinating subject and I respect the people who do the work; it's just that we're dealing with a different set of constraints when it comes to something like a Technic engine frame or Bionicle torso.

[Aanchir]

This kills a surprising majority of projects completely. While they had little hope they now have zero hope. Zelda, despite being voted in over and over, will just never happen :P.

There have been, for quite a while, multiple Zelda projects that don't run afoul of ANY issues related to these guidelines, or any other known issues projects face during review. The Zelda Master Sword and Pedestal proposal is the best example. The Legend of Zelda Heroica project need only remove the Heroica logo from its main image to be in line with these new guidelines. This recent project is based on sprites from the game, and might be viable considering that a LEGO mosaic of Link made up entirely of 2x2 bricks was recently for sale at a store in my hometown for over $100. And the Hylian Shield project is entirely in the clear. It even adheres mostly to building techniques that could be approved in an official set, meaning it would not need to be completely redesigned for production.

The only Zelda projects that these guidelines will effectively kill off are those that are dependent on new molds, and those would never stand a chance in review even without these rules codified. Chances are that when review comes, this means that any project that demands a Link minifigure will fail review, but this hardly means that a successful Cuusoo project based on the franchise is impossible. And if a non-minifigure-based project PASSED review and became a set, and that set was successful enough, it could easily pave the way for a minifigure-based Legend of Zelda theme, just like what is in development for the Minecraft theme.

[Lego Otaku]

Using old part that is official LEGO but which they no longer have mold would be a gray area. Monorail still fits the current guideline the way it's worded since it's official LEGO part.

I wonder what other old part beside monorail LEGO used to make and can no longer make due to lost or destroyed mold. Not counting design variation like old 2x4 brick without tube support.

[Faefrost]

Using old part that is official LEGO but which they no longer have mold would be a gray area. Monorail still fits the current guideline the way it's worded since it's official LEGO part.

I wonder what other old part beside monorail LEGO used to make and can no longer make due to lost or destroyed mold. Not counting design variation like old 2x4 brick without tube support.

A number of old canopies and cockpits have long since faded into history. Plus the entire line of old style finger hinges. A lot of old Classic Space specific parts. I'm sure there's a huge list. Plus some older part variations that allow for unusual geometries that just can't be accomplished with modern. Such as the old Macaroni bricks.

The two main issues will be old parts for which there simply is no modern equivalent, and will never be made again, such as the old Monorail track. Or parts that permit connections or geometries that are unique.

[Dorayaki]

I'm not sure it's correct to remove minifigure projects. Some projects do have low quality, but in a negative sense, it's resulted in that only TLC can decide which license can be collectible minifigure bilnd bags (Simpsons) but Cuusoo members can't (Disney, Muppets, original themes etc). Though the project owners can still make actual buildable things with the minifigures, some minifigures only fit in sole ideas more than traditional sets.

[vean]

Rules changed during the challenge! 2 weeks to changed most of my projects! Thank you LEGO....

Sorry, but I do not have enough time to do that correctly. So I will simply delete my account.

Cuusoo became useless and not effective for LEGO. If it can die silently, it will be good for them.

Edited December 14, 2013 by vean

[AndyC]

The two main issues will be old parts for which there simply is no modern equivalent, and will never be made again, such as the old Monorail track. Or parts that permit connections or geometries that are unique.

Well that will just get handled by the usual review process, in the same way it would if you used illegal building techniques or ended up with a very fragile model. Obviously if you want you project to succeed, it's probably better to avoid using things like monorail parts that are almost certainly difficult to work around.

Rules changed during the challenge! 2 weeks to changed most of my projects! Thank you LEGO....

Sorry, but I do not have enough time to do that correctly. So I will simply delete my account.

Cuusoo became useless and not effective for LEGO. If it can die silently, it will be good for them.

If you project isn't allowed under the new rules, it wasn't ever going to pass the review anyway. Clarifying the things which are guaranteed to fail your project is much fairer to you as a user of Cuusoo, because it's giving you the chance to maximise the opportunity of success if you make it to the review stage.

[vean]

I have closed my account. Instead of loosing time on Cuusoo, I will use it to feed this topic "Official LEGO Sets made in LDD".

[The Real Indiana Jones]

Using old part that is official LEGO but which they no longer have mold would be a gray area. Monorail still fits the current guideline the way it's worded since it's official LEGO part.

I wonder what other old part beside monorail LEGO used to make and can no longer make due to lost or destroyed mold. Not counting design variation like old 2x4 brick without tube support.

The two main issues will be old parts for which there simply is no modern equivalent, and will never be made again, such as the old Monorail track. Or parts that permit connections or geometries that are unique.

I think that Cuusoo actually specifically said "no monorail" in one of their first versions of the Official Guidelines. They folded it under the rule that says you can't request the re-release of legacy sets or discontinued sets, saying "e.g., Galaxy Explorer, or monorail, etc"

No one is totally sure why they do not want to revisit the monorail concept, but they specifically repeated that they do not want to do it through Cuusoo. They could possibly do an official Disney World Monorail, but sadly, they've made it clear that it won't be through Cuusoo.

[Faefrost]

No one is totally sure why they do not want to revisit the monorail concept, but they specifically repeated that they do not want to do it through Cuusoo. They could possibly do an official Disney World Monorail, but sadly, they've made it clear that it won't be through Cuusoo.

http://www.bricksetforum.com/discussion/3869/why-no-more-monorail/p2

Poke around in that thread. Realize that "LegoNabil" is Mark Stafford, and yeah he is laying out very very clearly why the Monorail parts will not be remade in the forseeable future. Short answer, they never made any money.

[Lipko]

Do I see it right, and you can't use HTML tags any more? Than what can you do instead? Now there's no way to embed videos in the description?

EDIT: ahhh forget it. Only embedding is not allowed, and never was.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Lipko

[The Real Indiana Jones]

We're also discussing this on the main Cuusoo thread, since this is obviously a major event...

Here is the main topic in the Embassy Forum

See you there!

[Artanis I]

I would love monorail to be produced again.. but ssince the mold for monorail is lost, this would require a new mold (and I guess that would be considered as a new part).

I lost count of the times different Lego reps has told us monorail isn't going to happen again, so I would not get my hopes up.

Unlike politics, where the more someone says it's not going to happen exponentially increases the likelihood of it happening.

[SmallTownBrickBoy]

I think it sounds reasonable to set a rule, that CuuSoo projects should only consists of standard bricks. I mean it naturally limits some functions to an extend - but also challenges you creativity :-)

[Faefrost]

I think it sounds reasonable to set a rule, that CuuSoo projects should only consists of standard bricks. I mean it naturally limits some functions to an extend - but also challenges you creativity :-)

They don't mean that all projects are limited to simply "bricks". You can use any official and produced Lego parts. Ideally those that are still in production. What they mean by "brick projects only" is they will no longer entertain non construction projects. Things like software, children's clothes, or similar third party ideas with a Lego logo slapped on. They also will not permit proposals or requests for new parts. Either as a stand alone part, such as a new building element, or a project required part such as a custom character hairpiece.

[Hive]

I think it will take much longer for projects to reach 10k votes with the new rules, since the most "populistic" ideas are not allowed anymore.

I think it's a good change though, as it will hopefully see more focus on the actual builds as opposed to popular trade marks and rendered minifigs.

[jonwil]

Regarding monorail, there are 3 different issues. The first is whether they will ever produce the old monorail parts again (the answer is no). The second is whether they would ever produce new monorail track parts of a new design (the answer is likely no because of the high cost). And the third is whether they would accept/make (as a Cuusoo set) a monorail set using brick-built track. (the answer on that would seem to be "we wont know until one hits 10k and passes or fails review")

[Faefrost]

Regarding monorail, there are 3 different issues. The first is whether they will ever produce the old monorail parts again (the answer is no). The second is whether they would ever produce new monorail track parts of a new design (the answer is likely no because of the high cost). And the third is whether they would accept/make (as a Cuusoo set) a monorail set using brick-built track. (the answer on that would seem to be "we wont know until one hits 10k and passes or fails review")

The monorail is even more complex because among those lost, damaged, destroyed or unusable molds are the ones involving the drive system. In that thread I posted a few pages back Mark Stafford touched on what is involved in certifying any electrical related parts, and it is insane. It cleared up why we do not see a lot of new lighted parts or high tech parts. Any new monorail proposal would pretty much have to be based on existing Power Functions parts and motors.