Modular standard for elevated city?

[brickgrrl]

Hi everyone!

I'm working on building a city with a subway train track at shelf level, with then a city (composed mostly of modulars) above it, held up (mostly) by the 2x2x10 girder pieces (with some added 2x2s or 2x4s to get it up to the 13 brick clearance my trains need...) I've decided I don't want to try to suspend baseplates since the lack of attachment points on the bottom seems like too much headache, so I'm grafting buildings onto 8x16 and 16x16 plates.

Here's my problem: I'd like to be able to take individual buildings down off the shelf for re-working/modification/play or to rearrange the buildings sometimes as I add to my building collection. The buildings are modular, so lifting down upper floors is not a problem, but I actually want to be able to pull down the ground floors, too (probably with some associated sidewalk, since building depth varies somewhat). So, it seems like I need a system where the ground floors are sitting on some sort of support frame, but only gripping on a couple studs? And I guess I wouldn't use the pins between buildings, since otherwise I'd have to basically pick them all up at once?

Has anyone come up with something like this? Any photos or feedback?

Thanks!

[Andy D]

You may need to strengthen the baseplates (which will necesitate disassembly of the bottom floor) to make each model easier to move.

I was looking at strengthening my baseplates on my modulars (haven't done it yet) and someone recommended I look at he Micropolos modular standard. It is for a smaller building size, but the baseplate ideas can be adapted to the "full size" modulars.

The URL is... http://twinlug.com/micropolis-micro-city-standard/

Good luck with your city.

Andy D

[brickgrrl]

Thanks for the link, Andy D. I'm actually not wanting something that pins modules together horizontally, as I want to be able to pull out one building, without needing to unhook it from the modules on either side of it and the road in front of it (since that would necessitate sliding a large street scene along the shelf to make room to clear the pins... I think I need something more like the way floors stack together -- mostly gravity, with a few studs and sometimes with plates sitting inside the lower level to keep it from sliding... Clearly I need a picture...

[Jan]

If you have some technic beams leftover, you could make a supporting grid underneath your baseplates.

If you make it very dense, i suppose you could even use normal baseplates on top, maybe connnected tot the technic frame only on the sides.

The advantage of using a grid of technic bricks could be aswell the possibility tot lock your girders to the frame, with this piece and an axle

[tedbeard]

I would suggest building the modulars on the regular baseplates but making the sidewalks two-plates (or one plate in the back alleys.) I have been doing this for years to match my two-plate tall sidewalks (as discussed here: http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=47772#entry839616 ) and I have to move the buildings all the time. These could easily rest on supports built into your "underground" sections. The plates and the building itself strengthen the baseplate enough to allow for reasonably easy movement.

[streifen]

From what I have read, you want the ground floors of each of your modulars to be easily detached just like the upper floors.

In that case, the plates for the flooring of the ground floors will have to be built similar to upper floors with tiles as the 'cushion' to the buildings.

This should then make it easy for your ground floors to be easily removed and modified.

[elleana]

I would imagine taking a similar approach to what is currently being done for separate floors of modular buildings would probably work:

- Subway level - 2 x 2 x 10 girders with additional bricks as necessary, plus an additional tile on top of all that.

- Sidewalk / road level base - I think 16 x 16 plates would work, with sufficient girders in place for support to make sure they dont snag, and plates to hold them together to make 32 x 32 baseplates. They would be tiled entirely so the first level is not fixed on and can be lifted up as necessary.

(Am just thinking out loud here) perhaps you might want to consider including one level of plates to make a 'guide' for your 16 x 16 plates or even the 32 x 32 sized plates to hold them in place and make sure they don't slide around. Hard to describe but these guide plates would be 1 x 16 and would be fixed to the girders at specific points. The 16 / 32 plates would then be placed alongside these guide plates. Although this might make the resulting structure somewhat larger, but I guess that wouldn't be an issue.

Edit - I realize that 1 x 16 plates dont exist and further it should be tile, to allow the baseplate to be placed on top without being attached, so perhaps 2 1 x 8 tiles instead, connected at the girders.

Edited February 12, 2014 by elleana

[elleana]

Further thought on my last point and this will probably be very expensive but very strong and flexible:

[Described as if the tiles are at eye level, using a 16 x 16 size as a reference but can be easily replicated to 32 x 32. Hope this makes sense!]

Sidewalk: Tiled as usual, with strategic tile placement to join the 16 x 16 plates together for a 32 x 32 layout

Plate Level 1: 16 x 16 plate

Plate Level 2a: 2 6 x 14 plates side by side. This will give you a 12 x 14 plate, which should be attached to the 16 x 16 plate such that on two sides there is a 1 stud gap from the edge and on the other two sides there is a 2 stud gap from the edge

Plate Level 2b: 1 x 8 tiles accordingly to fill up the gaps in Plate Level 2a above. When placed together Plate Level 2a and Plate Level 2b should form one continuous plate level of studs but there should be no movement allowed.

Plate Level 3: 4 x 4 or 6 x 6 plates to allow the tiles on Plate Level 2b to be joined together to form a frame of sorts. Plate Level 3 should be attached to the 2 x 2 bricks or on top of the girders as necessary to achieve the required height.

[ER0L]

This seems to be more or less the same problem I was dealing with when developing the LCS module standard for an elevated city with moving cars and a monorail underground.

One important idea of the LCS standard is to omit any baseplates or roadplates (at least in their original function) since they have quite a few disadvantages (on the other hand they are very useful to carry the whole substructure). Buildings, pavements and roads (both built SNOT-wise) are completely separated, buildings are resting on pillars, connected via a few studs only. For transportation purposes buildings can be detached within seconds, pavements (street lights and stuff included) are detached, too, and put into the center pit of the module. I even hope the modules to be stackable.

This is the profile of the substructure:

Buildings are set upon a kind of strip footing (5 layers, this matches exactly the height of street plus pavement).

Edited February 12, 2014 by ER0L

[sin]

I threw together a few things on LDD after reading this. I think the most simple solution would be to attach the ground to a support system using limited attachment studs like many of the modular floors are attached.

Here is a view from underneath:

I put a couple 16x16 plates on top to illustrate how they would attach. There would be 4 attachment points for each 16x16 plate, and they would not be on the very edge, they would be 1 stud towards the inside.

For added strength I would add some reinforcing plates to the underside of each group of 4 16x16 plates which would correspond to one modular building. Nothing crazy, perhaps just a bunch of 2x6, 2x8, and 2x10 plates at the edges and seams.

[sin]

Looking at my own pics I thought it would be hard to keep the support perfectly vertical. I added a frame above the supports that will make the whole design much stronger and will keep them perfectly spaced to allow for easy placement and removal of the larger plates sitting on top of the structure. I used 1x14 and 1x16 technic beams with a couple pins in each pair. I also placed a 1x1 brick on the corner stud that was left uncovered by these beams.

This could be raised or lowered to suit whatever height desired by just adding slopes or 2x2 bricks underneath the 2x2x10 supports.

I am a total newbie with LDD so I am sure someone who is more versed and has actually built layouts like this could come up with something better but your inquiry made me curious to see what I could come up with!

[Wodanis]

I'm wondering though how would you fit in the subway with these kind of support beams? I understood brickgrrl's original question as that she is looking for a system where you can lift sections in and out without the need for pins. I like your design Sin, I'm wondering if I can modify it somehow.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Wodanis

[sin]

I'm wondering though how would you fit in the subway with these kind of support beams? I understood brickgrrl's original question as that she is looking for a system where you can lift sections in and out without the need for pins. I like your design Sin, I'm wondering if I can modify it somehow.

Thanks Wodanis!

I thought the sections that brickgrrl was referring to were the sections from ground level and above. Assuming each modular sat upon 4 16x16 reinforced plates this would allow them to be placed and removed with any pins being used on the modulars themselves (there would be 16 studs per modular holding them in place).

There are 14 studs between each support, even if one were to place 2x2x1 slopes to reinforce the base of the 2x2x10 supports there would be ample room to run track between them. Curves would have to be accounted for, that would be a lot trickier to design the roof supports around.

Edited February 12, 2014 by sin

[Wodanis]

How did you have the LDD design look like that with lines and not render? I changed the unchecked the box for High quality render in the preferences menu but mine doesn't look like yours does.

[brickgrrl]

Sin - thanks! I think I'm going to try something like that, although I'm going to try to get the edges of the plates resting on tiles, rather than in the air. (Buildings are heavy, after all!) I think I'll also add some smaller plates (probably really just 1xwhatever framing) onto the bottoms of the 16x16s, so that it is easier to get them aligned properly with the couple of studs they're supposed to grab, by sort of plugging them into the sockets, if that makes any sense at all...

Wodanis - yes, I'm going to run subway through between the girders. Curves are indeed uglier (although not so bad as I'd originally feared). Sin's design is comfortably wide enough for all of the trains I've tried (EN, Yellow Cargo, Maersk) on straights, although it's a couple bricks short of being tall enough, as Sin notes.

[sin]

How did you have the LDD design look like that with lines and not render? I changed the unchecked the box for High quality render in the preferences menu but mine doesn't look like yours does.

Go to 'preferences' and select 'outlines on bricks'

I don't know why that isn't the default setting, aside from looking weird without it - it is really hard to figure out what is what when it just looks like a big lump of plastic.

Sin - thanks! I think I'm going to try something like that, although I'm going to try to get the edges of the plates resting on tiles, rather than in the air. (Buildings are heavy, after all!) I think I'll also add some smaller plates (probably really just 1xwhatever framing) onto the bottoms of the 16x16s, so that it is easier to get them aligned properly with the couple of studs they're supposed to grab, by sort of plugging them into the sockets, if that makes any sense at all...

No problem

It would be very easy to add 2 wide plates onto the top of the technic beams and then tile on top of the plates to accomplish this. I see what you are getting at regarding a solution that would facilitate alignment.

Be sure to post the results when you start building!

Edited February 12, 2014 by sin

[Wodanis]

Sin - thanks! I think I'm going to try something like that, although I'm going to try to get the edges of the plates resting on tiles, rather than in the air. (Buildings are heavy, after all!) I think I'll also add some smaller plates (probably really just 1xwhatever framing) onto the bottoms of the 16x16s, so that it is easier to get them aligned properly with the couple of studs they're supposed to grab, by sort of plugging them into the sockets, if that makes any sense at all...

Wodanis - yes, I'm going to run subway through between the girders. Curves are indeed uglier (although not so bad as I'd originally feared). Sin's design is comfortably wide enough for all of the trains I've tried (EN, Yellow Cargo, Maersk) on straights, although it's a couple bricks short of being tall enough, as Sin notes.

Originally I was thinking of a system where you could use 1x2 wall elements and have the base plates nestle into those. However it may cause some moving around of the baseplates and it would have to be slightly larger than the 32x32. I looked at the Lego World Copenhagen 2013 photos. They have a nice design for a subway which is open to the air but below ground level complete with a stairwell onto the street.

I had to update my drivers as it turned out Sin. 2007...

[ER0L]

This looks very nice indeed. The advantage of a stable grid structure is that you can even relocate the girders here and there when room is needed, e. g. for a subway curve. I couldn't do something similar since I needed the room in the center pit. In fact the buildings themselves provide enough horizontal stability, they only have to be supported at the corners.

I'd be very interested to see how this looks like when roads and pavements are applied.

[sin]

Well I just couldn't stop myself from tinkering a bit more

I added a few things:

• plates with tiles on top to support all of the edges of the 16x16 surface plates
  
• boosted the height of the supports by 2 bricks
  
• added reinforcement around the base of the supports - without it lateral force could send the entire upper level crashing down onto the bottom
  
• reinforced the 16x16 plates - based upon the presumption of working with groups of 4 16x16's
  

Here is a close up view of the reinforced support bases - I left the ones on the corners unfinished so the inside could be seen

I built a complete section of 4 16x16 plates with reinforcement to show how it could be done - this doesn't necessarily account for the alignment aid that brickgrrl mentioned but I only spent a few minutes on it and nothing came quickly to mind that would address that

I wish I had the bricks or the budget to try this out!

[sin]

Ah silly me, sometimes it's the easiest solutions that are the most elusive...

A handful of 1x2 plates (black in the image) would solve the alignment aid issue

Here is an image from the underside to show how they would slot in

Edited February 12, 2014 by sin

[Wodanis]

Haha Sin. That is awesome. May as well use the idea to build your own subway line.

[TheQ]

Based on my own experience, I would even go so far that I would add inverted 2x2 roof bricks on the bottom of the black 1x2 plates shown in Sin's picture. This would make it easier to find right spot to place the plate since the inverted slope bricks would provide a guide to correct spots. Small addition but it really helps when you are moving things around.

[Wodanis]

Ok, so I modified your design Sin. I realized that if you want the components to separate and be more modular that I had to alter things.

• I reduced the outside edges by one 1x14 technic brick on two sides
  
• reduced the frontage of the pillars
  
• nestled in the top using a 1x2 plate and having a 1x2 brick and tile
  
• The rail tiles will now connect to a subsequent section
  

What I am thinking now is to integrate a curved section of the railway while maintaining the balance of the modular that will rest upon it. I was also thinking of making a section that will have the brick work and arch to hide the other sections as it comes out into the open.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Wodanis

[sin]

Hah, bitten by the bug as well I see

I like what you did here. It makes sense to have the underground modular as well. Your change leaves just enough room for the track as well!

I agree with you, all that would be needed is a different module for the curve and this design could be replicated as needed for an above and below ground display. I think I will have some more fun with this later...

[Wodanis]

Hah, bitten by the bug as well I see

I like what you did here. It makes sense to have the underground modular as well. Your change leaves just enough room for the track as well!

I agree with you, all that would be needed is a different module for the curve and this design could be replicated as needed for an above and below ground display. I think I will have some more fun with this later...

Haha you know it. It is funny that you thought up this design as I was planning on working on a mine landscape or a subway system connected to modulars. Perfect timing! Thanks to Brickgrrl for starting this thread.