Star Wars Lego Petition

[xwingyoda]

Sweden,

I know it is hard for us, members of the AFOL community, to have our voice heard and respected on upcoming TLC dfecisions, creations... However, this does not mean we should remain silent on that matter. Lets talk, and talk loud...

I aslo know that the SW line could be much better if it was not primeraly designed for "kids". It wouldn't matter that much if we had access to a very large "pick a brick" shop where you could redesign TLC's model. Personnaly, it took me a rather long time to get rid of all blue parts in my Ties to replace them with the old classic ligfht grey (plus a little redisign, not too many though in order to keep the TLC "spirit")- and that's only an exemple!!!

Lets hope that in the near future TLC will make the appropriate decisions in order to please younger builders as well as the more "experienced" AFOL community!!

[snefroe]

i think you both need a reality check, guys...

the number of Afols is quite insignificant. this forum doesn't even have 300 members; fbtb.net has 500 members. belug has 57; brittish LUG has 94; sure, lugnet has quite a few, but manny aren't afol... Also polls, approval ratings indicate that there aren't manny active afols... how manny Afol-candidates for the ambassador program did tlc receive? 60! WORLDWIDE!!

the fact is, we've got a very good network of forums, sites,... we make a lot of noise. but the afol community as such isn't large at all, nor are we commercially significant. to TLC, we're just a bonus, in some cases... sure we pushed the sales of the x-wing and the falcon. the sales of star wars in 2003 was a major disappointment for tlc, afol community or not, even though 2003 saw some sets that are extremely popular with the afol community, like the AT AT and AT TE.

the reason why tlc is making contact with us throu the ambassador program doesn't have anything to do with commercial strength of a large number of afols, but with marketing. I'm still waiting, by the way, for the first Afol theme. why don't we see anything of such a theme, you think?

[xwingyoda]

Thanks for the insight Snefroe ;)

I know that US, the AFOL community, is for TLC, insignificant in terms of everything (apart from a small marketing perspective).

We can only try in our own way to, incline TLC on the decisions we think appropriate (we want to keep the SW licence...).

What do you mean exactly by the "first Afol theme"?

[snefroe]

What do you mean exactly by the "first Afol theme"?

a theme specifically created for afols... the sets would be sophisticated, intelligently built, detailed. they should have manny pieces, large and small, and there should be some realism/credibility to it. for instance, a cockpit of a space ship should be able to close fully, instead of leaving open space...

they should probably rethink the traditional combination of a theme and only produce larger sets...

a viking longboat, for instance, should have at least 500-1000 pieces, be realistic, fully equiped with minifigs and their equipement, a hull of a few 100 pieces, barrels of wine and food,... :P :P :P

[xwingyoda]

AMEN to that :P :P

That would be great. It would ba like a kind of minifig UCS *satis*

Now lets decide the theme we want ;)

[Jipay]

I find some of you guys and what you actually say incredibly hilarious indeed and why you ask?

Over the years I've seen so very many of you guys complaining about sets not being in scale with the mini figures, sets not being in scale with each other as well as sets being heavily <insert that tiresome argument> and everything else and how you basically load The LEGO Group and how you whine and moan about all this from time to time.

Then a guy like jr2d2 or me come along and start a petition or topic about all this trying to make The LEGO Group listen to the AFOL or to have a fun and great as well as an interesting debate and discussion about all this but then all of a sudden you guys have forgotten what you whined and moaned about last week!?

Somebody please try and figure that one out will you? Please? Pretty please? Please?

The problem is that you consider all the AFOL communities as one group (same as lego does). We are not like fbtb for instance and we complain way less than them. On a side note you were the one who complained about the sets not beeing at scale one with each other in the UCS line... *satis*

[Jipay]

i think you both need a reality check, guys...

the number of Afols is quite insignificant. this forum doesn't even have 300 members; fbtb.net has 500 members. belug has 57; brittish LUG has 94; sure, lugnet has quite a few, but manny aren't afol... Also polls, approval ratings indicate that there aren't manny active afols... how manny Afol-candidates for the ambassador program did tlc receive? 60! WORLDWIDE!!

the fact is, we've got a very good network of forums, sites,... we make a lot of noise. but the afol community as such isn't large at all, nor are we commercially significant. to TLC, we're just a bonus, in some cases... sure we pushed the sales of the x-wing and the falcon. the sales of star wars in 2003 was a major disappointment for tlc, afol community or not, even though 2003 saw some sets that are extremely popular with the afol community, like the AT AT and AT TE.

the reason why tlc is making contact with us throu the ambassador program doesn't have anything to do with commercial strength of a large number of afols, but with marketing. I'm still waiting, by the way, for the first Afol theme. why don't we see anything of such a theme, you think?

Damn you sum up my thought :-D And not to mention most of fbtb members are not AFOLS, same for our board : they are Kfols

[xwingyoda]

Jipay, I am lost here, could you please explain to me what is the difference between AFOLs and KFOLs?

I do apologise in advance if this sounds like a stupid question :$

[DoubleT]

AFOL = Adult Fans of Lego

KAFOL = Kids & Adult Fans of Lego

:)

[xwingyoda]

Thanks a lot Double T for this explanation ;)

[Sweden]

xwingyoda

Yes, The LEGO Group should care about the AFOL unless they're totally brain dead business wise. :|

I truly like your ideas because there's a whole lot of us AFOL out there that do make a certain part of the income for The LEGO Group and this is a market they could indeed expand a whole lot if they had the will to do it and imagine what really cool and awesome stuff that could be made and be a cash cow for them.

Here's a good example about a manufacturer that didn't listen to the customers and lost:

In the late 90's Todd McFarlane's McFarlane Toys made way for the new type of action figures that indeed basically were like built and painted model kits with the exception that they were action figures on steroids and after that McFarlane Toys gained a huge piece of the markets with their excellent line of action figures.

But...

Then McFarlane Toys all of a sudden stopped to listen to the wishes the fans of their action figure lines had and then NECA and SOTA Toys entered the toy market and they got "most" of the really exclusive licenses that's sought after to make action figures from leaving McFarlane Toys with basically nothing to produce...

Their eight wave of the Movie Maniacs line for 2005 has been delayed until next year... Figures.

snefroe1

The one who needs a reality check is you dude. :|

Insignificant huh? Well, if you base it on that every AFOL in the world is registred to those websites maybe.

To me an AFOL is an AFOL no matter if he or she is "active" or not being registred to these websites you mention because you don't need to be registred to any of them to be an AFOL and not everyone has the need to be registred to them for that matter and there's a whole lot of potential AFOL out there as well.

I know for a fact that there's AFOL amongst the model kit communities that are impressed with especially the UCS line and that do know what amazing thing that can be done with LEGO parts and that's a market that The LEGO Group should try and gain because with UCS there's big bucks to be made amongst these.

I've studied the model kit and toy markets for "30 years" now and I've been the manager for my very own but former mail order business dealing with model kits and toys so I ought to know what I'm talking about and I ought to know a great deal about the business even though I'm not an expert on the whole subject.

Yeah, there you're most definitely right buddy. The LEGO Group versus the AFOL communities is nothing else but a very smart marketing decision because they know just as I do that there's a whole lot of these unregistred AFOL out that they can reach that way and nothing's better then free advertsing for anyone.

It's all about the money, di-di-dum-dum-di-di-di-dum, I don't think it's funny, I see them fade away.

I truly like your ideas as well because over the years I've seen what "totally amazing" things that can be created with those LEGO parts and being a model kit builder and collector in the begining seeing that one basically can create fine model kits out of LEGO parts I'm totally amazed that there so few UCS sets made.

Go over to the Sir Steve's Star Wars Guide website and go check out the LEGO forum and you'll see a very good example of very cheap advertizing made by The LEGO Group in the AFOL community promising gold and diamonds and especially read the extraordinary announcement of the Death Star II that's pure crap.

jipay

The problem is that you don't read what I say and that you're guessing what I'm trying to say.

I quote myself:

"A note: This is not directed to the Eurobricks community but to the other ones."

End quote.

I never ever even once said that I concider all of the AFOL communities as one group because they're not as AFOL doesn't mean just that and once again not all of the AFOL are registred to these communities as probably most AFOL doesn't want to or have a need to do it and then again with FBTB who would want to.

Yes, I know that "Eurobricks" aren't very much like FBTB and thank God for that because that very place is a damn good example of what a community shouldn't be like and I even know of famous AFOL that doesn't even want to be associated with them in "any way at all" so I'll actually give Eurobricks some compliments.

Sure, I'm "The One" who complained as you like to call it but I'm NOT the only one who does it no matter how much you twist and turn it around and go read that other topic once again and you'll see that there are more people reasoning along the lines that I do so I'm in NO way unique and I'm definitely NOT alone.

Sweden... The One... And only.

[Jipay]

Yeah I know. You make good points in your posts. I think we should create a lego philosophy forum :-D

[xwingyoda]

Truely good idea ;)

Or even a forum where us, AFOL community (or communities), could discuss how to try to have a certain weight "against" TLC in their decision making process (one forum instead of "complaints" dilluted into a lot of different forums) - just a suggestion though ;)

[snefroe]

Sweden,

i think most of us agree that tlc doesn't listen to the customers, afol or not. even children are building war models with non violent official models, still tlc doesn't want to produce war models. Principles of a free market tell you that you're out of business if you don't produce what the market wants. No discussion there...

let's agree to disagree on the number of afols in the world. the number of forum members is the best reference i've got to get some sort of a picture of the afol community. sure, the financial records of tlc, sale figures,... would tell us a lot more on this but unfortunately, i don't have that information. i guess you need a detailed defenition on "Afol". if you accept "Adult Fan Of Lego", than sure, you may have a large group... i would at least add the concept of "regular customer",... I'm not sure if you'd call the model kit builder who occasionally buys a ucs model an "Afol"...

the model kit builders bought the x-wing, but they didn't buy the AT AT, they bought the star destroyer, will they buy the death star? will they stay on as customers after 2007 when the star wars licence is gone, without a solid alternative? perhaps you're perfectly placed to give an insight on that... And what should this post 2007 line be?

It's obvious that the UCS line is the link between model kit builders and lego, but adult model kit builders are very demanding customers. unless tlc produces very good models (x-wing, tie fighter) time and time again, she's going to loose that group. Sure, there's a huge potential, but only if tlc invests a lot of money and takes a lot of risk. the star destroyer was a risk that turned out to be a succes, i don't think the death star will find the same succes in model kit world.

i guess the worst problem of tlc is this:

in Belgium, but probably all around the world, 8 out of 10 boys buy lego. many are die hard fans for several years. then, when they're somewhere between 15-18 years, the've outgrown the lego sets. suddenly, lego becomes an embarassment for them, especially when girlfriends/friends/family are involved. it's as if tlc tells them: "listen, this is the end of the line for you. you're too old now to play with our products. we're not going to produce sets/themes for you. you're free to buy the stuff for the youngsters." consequently, tlc looses many thousands of customers every year.

instead, tlc should make the effort to create an entirely different production line of UCS models, adult themes,... and tell the 16 year old: "sure, you feel that the alpha team is crap, it's for children and you're not a child anymore. we can accept that. but here, try this 3000 piece train, castle, ... what do you think of that?"

right now, tlc may win a few customers (duplo customers basically) every year, but they loose thousands of teenagers, not because bad sets/themes, but because of a lack of sets... and if you don't produce what the market wants...

if you think about it, thats what Hasegawa, Revell and others are doing in the model kit world: they have production lines for 10piece sets (for children) as well as production lines for 1000 piece sets (for experienced builders)... tlc should do the same, but that's only possible if she accepts that she's no longer just a producer of toys for children, but also for adults.

[xwingyoda]

Don't you just love those thesis battles :-D ;)

[Jipay]

i guess the worst problem of tlc is this:

in Belgium, but probably all around the world, 8 out of 10 boys buy lego. many are die hard fans for several years. then, when they're somewhere between 15-18 years, the've outgrown the lego sets. suddenly, lego becomes an embarassment for them, especially when girlfriends/friends/family are involved. it's as if tlc tells them: "listen, this is the end of the line for you. you're too old now to play with our products. we're not going to produce sets/themes for you. you're free to buy the stuff for the youngsters." consequently, tlc looses many thousands of customers every year.

instead, tlc should make the effort to create an entirely different production line of UCS models, adult themes,... and tell the 16 year old: "sure, you feel that the alpha team is crap, it's for children and you're not a child anymore. we can accept that. but here, try this 3000 piece train, castle, ... what do you think of that?"

right now, tlc may win a few customers (duplo customers basically) every year, but they loose thousands of teenagers, not because bad sets/themes, but because of a lack of sets... and if you don't produce what the market wants...

if you think about it, thats what Hasegawa, Revell and others are doing in the model kit world: they have production lines for 10piece sets (for children) as well as production lines for 1000 piece sets (for experienced builders)... tlc should do the same, but that's only possible if she accepts that she's no longer just a producer of toys for children, but also for adults.

This is a real issue you are talking about. I think the first thing would be to suppress the age ont he boxes or to high it up. I mean, I buy 4+ years sets. of course there is the +, but it means nothing to most of the people.

I think guys who are embarrassed by their lego as teenagers should think twice : a lot of girls find this cute :-D

[xwingyoda]

"I think guys who are embarrassed by their lego as teenagers should think twice : a lot of girls find this cute :-D "

Jipay, tell us where they are :-D :-D

[snefroe]

"I think guys who are embarrassed by their lego as teenagers should think twice : a lot of girls find this cute :-D "

Jipay, tell us where they are :-D :-D

yeah, jipay, please tell us :P :P

unfortunately, i'm not kidding about this. lego is generally considered to be a toy for kids and many model kit builders are probably thinking: "lego is not for me, but for kids", even tho they might like building these sets and might be tempted to buying them. and tlc is making it worse by officially stating that she produces toys for children. She's closing a door that was opened by the UCS line.

so it's not just about products and a lack of it.

it's also about marketing and image.

i wonder if there's no one within tlc who raises these questions as well

you're right, jipay, tlc should drop the ages and write what Herg

[Jipay]

Well Jake recognised in a conference that Lego completely screwed with trains because there was a huge market for trains with the adults.

[stan]

A couple of years back some sets did have an age label that said ,for example, 4-99, but it wasnt very clear and they had problems with people thinking it was the price.

[xwingyoda]

Stan, its not my fault if people are so stupid :-D

Concerning the age issue, TLC should only indicate a minimum age for products directly aimed at a young market such as Duplo, Dora...

For the other sets (Designers, System, UCS...) they should find a way to elude the question unless, off course, its a legal requirement. I really can't imagine parents stupid enough to buy to their 4 year old kid the ISD :-D

Its getting ridiculous after 4 to include age on boxes.

Actually, I think the best way to completely elude the problem, is to show to a broad (the broader, the better) audience what can actually be built out of our favorite bricks. Just a quick exemple: a kid (around 10) loves models of race cars. His first choice would be to buy a die cast model or a glue it together model. If the kid remembers the life size Ferrari F1 he saw, he might consider naturally to buy the TLC product (OK I know its a trivial ex but its nearly 2am *wacko* ).

Bottom line TLC, work on your marketing strategies harder ;)

[mutley777]

do lego really have any idea on the size of the AFOL community, does anybody for that matter. you see a man in a shop buying lego, now is that lego for his child or himself. how could lego know just how big the AOFL community is and how much of their retail sales is made up of this community. i only started collecting lego again when the star wars line was released in 1999 but have now bought a few of the designer sets as well as all the star wars. my lego spending each year must be over

[xwingyoda]

I totally agree with you ;) .

Like you I fell back in my really old Lego mania with SW (only approwximately 2 years ago).

Off course we, the AFOL community, have a (much) bigger "spending power" than the dad buying once or twice a set for his kid. It would be interesting for TLC to quantify worldwide the spending power of AFOLs (and KFOLs) compared other sales. Regional based Lego should do a survey on each buy to know what is that particular buy. If someone buys 100

[snefroe]

i don't know how large or diverse the afol world is. nor do i have any idea how to measure this.

i'm not sure about this buying power, tho. you'd probably think that afols have and spend a lot of money on this, but children have a major impact on their parents' decisions and budget. and they do get a lot of toys in the last 2 - 3 months of the year...

400 pounds, you say... that's 350 euro or so... i've got a few mothers walking around here for the day... they're all saying that they're spending a LOT more than 350 euro on toys... it's not that difficult: 1 x-wing: 74 euro; 1 Falcon: 150 euro; 1 police station: 80 euro;... that's just lego...

[xwingyoda]

400