LEGO Ideas Discussion

[Faefrost]

Sally Ride is also the only one I have heard of from the list. Funny thing is that I also thought of Christa McAuliffe before even regarding Sally when I heard about this project. Excluding her makes the set seem incomplete, yet including her could potentially be treading difficult territory. As a designer, it would not feel right to me to profit off of selling something with her namesake on it, especially if her family members were not involved in the profit/licensing. On the other hand, having her in the set would have its merits in the form of educating the younger generation about her being selected as the first teacher to go to space and the Challenger accident. Children would probably be able to relate more to her than the others since her primary job was to teach them. It might in a way even honor her memory in this regard. In my opinion, she definitely would deserve to be in this set, but others might disagree.

I agree that the set does seem like a minifigure pack with just enough basic builds to get around the no minifig only rule. Yet, this has a high chance of success because Ideas has a history of space sets selling well in addition to the near instant sellout of Research Institute. This offers a combination of the two, so it would not be surprising in the very least if this got approved.

I really hate to be "that guy", but I am honestly growing weary of the steady stream of "Women of..." Projects, both here and elsewhere, that seem more primed to pimp an agenda, than to actually be interesting in and of themselves. I mean this sucker seems deliberately geared to attract support from The Mary Sue and Jezebel crowds. And this sort of thing is starting to get more than a bit of cultural blowback. (Note the recent Ghostbusters mess.)

What makes it worse is while seeking to showcase some unquestionable admirable women, it fails on two major levels. First, it's a rather dull and uninspired Lego project. It's a frame to stand a few minifigs in. Wow?

The second failure is subtle. You have to know more than a bit about NASA to pick up on it. But somebody is missing from that set. Somebody major. Somebody important. And no I don't mean Christa McAuliffe. No rather suspiciously Commander Eileen Marie Collins is somehow mysteriously absent from the list. For those unfamiliar with Commander Collins, she was a USAF pilot and instructor who became an Astronaut. She flew 4 Shuttle missions. 2 as Pilot and 2 as Commander. She was the first woman to command a US Space Craft and Mission, and did so twice. An extremely rare accomplishment. She is known as one of the finest Shuttle Pilots ever, having a record of absolutely perfect landings. Her final mission was in command of the Shuttle fleets "Return to Space" following the Columbia disaster. She is arguably the most famous and accomplished female Astronaut since Sally Ride. In many ways the Jessica Chastain character in "The Martian" was modeled on her. Yet she for some strange reason gets left off this list? Why oh why could that be?...

Oh right! She's a Conservative Republican, and does not self identify as a "Feminist".

Yeah, sorry no. This project isn't an inspiring feel good piece designed to get girls interested in science. It is deliberate political propoganda with an undercurrent of revisionist history and erasure.

[Blondie-Wan]

I really hate to be "that guy", but I am honestly growing weary of the steady stream of "Women of..." Projects, both here and elsewhere, that seem more primed to pimp an agenda, than to actually be interesting in and of themselves. I mean this sucker seems deliberately geared to attract support from The Mary Sue and Jezebel crowds. And this sort of thing is starting to get more than a bit of cultural blowback. (Note the recent Ghostbusters mess.)

If the agenda is just boosting the representation of women minifigures in LEGO sets and increasing the visibility of female role models, I have trouble seeing that as some terrible thing.

What makes it worse is while seeking to showcase some unquestionable admirable women, it fails on two major levels. First, it's a rather dull and uninspired Lego project. It's a frame to stand a few minifigs in. Wow?

There actually is a bit more to it than that. There's an associated build for each of the people. I'll grant you it's far from the most sophisticated or elegant build on Ideas, but it's far from the least, as well, and there are plenty of real, existing LEGO sets that have less going on build-wise than this, to say nothing of literally thousands of lesser Ideas projects. Seriously, there's a whole thread about "the best of the worst of LEGO Ideas" thread over in the General Discussion forum just full of such examples - I'm not crazy about the idea of making such a big public point of just mocking the less-skilled builders and half-baked concepts there, as I've noted in that thread, but I certainly can't argue all of them are as, well... good (or even decent) as this project is.

The second failure is subtle. You have to know more than a bit about NASA to pick up on it. But somebody is missing from that set. Somebody major. Somebody important. And no I don't mean Christa McAuliffe. No rather suspiciously Commander Eileen Marie Collins is somehow mysteriously absent from the list. For those unfamiliar with Commander Collins, she was a USAF pilot and instructor who became an Astronaut. She flew 4 Shuttle missions. 2 as Pilot and 2 as Commander. She was the first woman to command a US Space Craft and Mission, and did so twice. An extremely rare accomplishment. She is known as one of the finest Shuttle Pilots ever, having a record of absolutely perfect landings. Her final mission was in command of the Shuttle fleets "Return to Space" following the Columbia disaster. She is arguably the most famous and accomplished female Astronaut since Sally Ride. In many ways the Jessica Chastain character in "The Martian" was modeled on her. Yet she for some strange reason gets left off this list? Why oh why could that be?...

Oh right! She's a Conservative Republican, and does not self identify as a "Feminist".

Err... maybe, but I kind of doubt it. The project creator herself notes there are a lot more than five NASA-associated women who could have been in it, but that for the purposes of being a viable project it couldn't be just dozens or hundreds of minifigures. In one of the project updates, she explains her selection process, and the choices all make sense. That there are other worthwhile candidates doesn't mean none of the ones who are there shouldn't be there. Moreover, these are ultimately just the initial suggestions; it's not like they have to go with these exact five, and the final set (if produced) could go with others. But these five are all here because they're from different eras of NASA history, and also have different roles.

Yeah, sorry no. This project isn't an inspiring feel good piece designed to get girls interested in science. It is deliberate political propoganda with an undercurrent of revisionist history and erasure.

I can't see any reasonable way this can be considered erasure - that's the very sort of thing it stands against, if anything.

And yes, this project absolutely did benefit from social media exposure to people interested in it from a social justice perspective (whether you think that's good or bad - I think it's great, myself, though I realize you may feel differently). That doesn't mean none of the voters actually want this as a real LEGO set - there are scads of people who absolutely do, whether it's more from promoting women in STEM or purely for love of anything STEM-related. Whether for reasons you personally approve of or not, there is a real market for this set, made up of real people - some of them women, some of them not, some of them new to LEGO, some of them not - that really, genuinely would like to have this as an honest-to-goodness set they can buy and put together.

[CM4Sci]

I really hate to be "that guy", but I am honestly growing weary of the steady stream of "Women of..." Projects, both here and elsewhere, that seem more primed to pimp an agenda, than to actually be interesting in and of themselves. I mean this sucker seems deliberately geared to attract support from The Mary Sue and Jezebel crowds. And this sort of thing is starting to get more than a bit of cultural blowback. (Note the recent Ghostbusters mess.)

What makes it worse is while seeking to showcase some unquestionable admirable women, it fails on two major levels. First, it's a rather dull and uninspired Lego project. It's a frame to stand a few minifigs in. Wow?

The second failure is subtle. You have to know more than a bit about NASA to pick up on it. But somebody is missing from that set. Somebody major. Somebody important. And no I don't mean Christa McAuliffe. No rather suspiciously Commander Eileen Marie Collins is somehow mysteriously absent from the list. For those unfamiliar with Commander Collins, she was a USAF pilot and instructor who became an Astronaut. She flew 4 Shuttle missions. 2 as Pilot and 2 as Commander. She was the first woman to command a US Space Craft and Mission, and did so twice. An extremely rare accomplishment. She is known as one of the finest Shuttle Pilots ever, having a record of absolutely perfect landings. Her final mission was in command of the Shuttle fleets "Return to Space" following the Columbia disaster. She is arguably the most famous and accomplished female Astronaut since Sally Ride. In many ways the Jessica Chastain character in "The Martian" was modeled on her. Yet she for some strange reason gets left off this list? Why oh why could that be?...

Oh right! She's a Conservative Republican, and does not self identify as a "Feminist".

Yeah, sorry no. This project isn't an inspiring feel good piece designed to get girls interested in science. It is deliberate political propoganda with an undercurrent of revisionist history and erasure.

I fully agree with this. I'm sick of these "pro-women" projects. They did it once with the Research Institute and we don't need to waste more slots with this kind of stuff.

[jimmynick]

TLG will have to decide if they think enough people would buy it to produce the set, and even if they do produce the Women of NASA set, it doesn't mean they can't also produce a second project from the review cycle. Just because they produce a set doesn't mean you have to buy it.

I'm sick of the endless line of X-wings that the Star Wars theme produces. They did it many times before and we don't need ot waste more slots with this kind of stuff. (only slightly in jest)

At heart, LEGO is a building system. The person who made the Women of NASA project used the system to build something they liked, and thought perhaps 10,000 other people might like. You can take your stack of bricks and build something else for yourself, too. It's been a while since I bought a set, but I enjoy the hobby just as much as ever.

I've never bought SW battle packs or been into the CMF series so I wouldn't buy a Women of NASA set that is predominantly minifigures, but it's just my two cents.

Edited August 3, 2016 by jamesn

[x105Black]

I am most certainly a feminist, but I feel like the "Women of NASA" project is pandering. Do we need more representations of females in LEGO, and an encouragement of female role models? Yes, absolutely. Is a "Women of" anything set the way to go about it? I don't think it is. There are many more ways of being inclusive and positive. There are many more ways of portraying the equality that feminism supports.

That said, I wouldn't be upset if the set passes review. I just don't personally think it has that kind of potential as an Ideas project.

[Sarah]

I am most certainly a feminist, but I feel like the "Women of NASA" project is pandering. Do we need more representations of females in LEGO, and an encouragement of female role models? Yes, absolutely. Is a "Women of" anything set the way to go about it? I don't think it is. There are many more ways of being inclusive and positive. There are many more ways of portraying the equality that feminism supports.

That said, I wouldn't be upset if the set passes review. I just don't personally think it has that kind of potential as an Ideas project.

This. Esp because I'm pretty sure a "Men of NASA" would be a problem all the way around. Unless-- has that been done before and I just missed it? As a parent of a boy and a girl, sometimes the lack of one half frustrates me -- no matter which half it is.

[AFOLguy1970]

I think the designer of "Women of NASA" picked this as a submission to Lego Ideas because they knew it has a high chance of success. Some of you are right in asserting that emphasis on women in Lego is at an all time high right now. I will not debate the pros and cons of that here, but I honestly wish I had thought of this design, not to make a political statement, but simply based on the fact that science and women sell really well in Lego. Love it or hate it, the set has a high chance of success. I read an online article where NASA tweeted regarding the Ideas submission and encouraged people to take a look at it. Considering NASA already made an official presence, I fully expect it to pass review. I see nothing in the competition that would beat it, and it does not require a lot of parts. It ticks off all of the boxes.

There is only one weakness I see in it that perhaps many people overlook, and that is the emphasis on American women in NASA. As an American myself, perhaps it is ironic to point this out, but why limit an Ideas set to just the accomplishments of American people? We just had a set approved with focuses on the Apollo mission to the moon (Saturn V). Lego is a worldwide company based in Denmark. Surely, women from all over the world have contributed to space, and perhaps a more worldwide distribution of minifigs and accomplishments would be more fitting? Heck, if anyone got left out, I would nominate Valentina Tereshkova, the first woman in space. Period.

[Blondie-Wan]

Not a set specifically about men, no...

This. Esp because I'm pretty sure a "Men of NASA" would be a problem all the way around. Unless-- has that been done before and I just missed it?

Not a set specifically about or named for men, no... though as it happens, the second set ever in this line, Hayabusa, included a minifigure meant to represent Junichiro Kawaguchi, the Hayabusa project manager for JAXA, the Japanese space agency. And in the not-too-distant future we'll get the Apollo 11 Saturn V, which will probably include minifigures of Apollo 11 astronauts Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin, and possibly also Michael Collins. Just in this line, then, there will be a couple sets featuring probably three or four real-life male space explorers before this set based around real-life female space explorers comes about, if it does. Moreover, outside space exploration, there are already official minifigures of literally dozens of real-life men, mostly sports figures, but I think there's maybe one of a real-life woman, and that's if we count the person from Minifigures Series 5 who's officially designated "Egyptian Queen" as being Cleopatra, as that minifigure was addressed in The LEGO Movie.

As the project creator notes, there may not be a lot of sets (if any) specifically created to represent exclusively men or commemorate their achievements, but the vast, overwhelming majority of sets do that in effect anyway. The tiny number of sets specifically designed to feature exclusively women just help make up a tiny, tiny bit of the overall disparity, and don't detract from all the men-only sets.

Considering NASA already made an official presence, I fully expect it to pass review. I see nothing in the competition that would beat it,

Nor would anything need to, anyway; they can and frequently do approve more than one project at once. I could see them approving this, the Voltron - Defender of the Universe project, and the Large Hadron Collider all at once, for example. They've never approved three or more all at the same time, but they have done two at once on at least four occasions. And they actually have had a single review batch from which they approved three, just at different times - they approved the Birds and The Big Bang Theory projects at the same time from the same batch, while the two Doctor Who projects that were also in that batch were held over for further review., and one was ultimately approved in the next review (alongside the WALL•E project from the later batch).

There is only one weakness I see in it that perhaps many people overlook, and that is the emphasis on American women in NASA. As an American myself, perhaps it is ironic to point this out, but why limit an Ideas set to just the accomplishments of American people? We just had a set approved with focuses on the Apollo mission to the moon (Saturn V). Lego is a worldwide company based in Denmark. Surely, women from all over the world have contributed to space, and perhaps a more worldwide distribution of minifigs and accomplishments would be more fitting? Heck, if anyone got left out, I would nominate Valentina Tereshkova, the first woman in space. Period.

I think the creator chose to focus on women of NASA specifically because of her personal connections to it. She doesn't actually work for NASA herself, but she's a writer and editor for MIT who has done a lot of work pertaining to NASA, she's personal friends with various NASA employees including some astronauts, etc. It's not unlike how the Female Minifigure Set / Research Institute was submitted by an actual working research geochemist, the Curiosity Rover by an actual JPL engineer, and WALL•E by an actual Pixar animator (which may therefore be another factor in this project's favor). She does acknowledge the many contributions to space exploration made by non-NASA personnel in her comments and whatnot; she just wanted this to focus specifically on NASA.

Had it been my project, I definitely would have included Tereshkova, and made it about women in space exploration history in general, not just from NASA, but I'd still be happy with this.

[x105Black]

Not a set specifically about or named for men, no... though as it happens, the second set ever in this line, Hayabusa, included a minifigure meant to represent Junichiro Kawaguchi, the Hayabusa project manager for JAXA, the Japanese space agency. And in the not-too-distant future we'll get the Apollo 11 Saturn V, which will probably include minifigures of Apollo 11 astronauts Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin, and possibly also Michael Collins. Just in this line, then, there will be a couple sets featuring probably three or four real-life male space explorers before this set based around real-life female space explorers comes about, if it does. Moreover, outside space exploration, there are already official minifigures of literally dozens of real-life men, mostly sports figures, but I think there's maybe one of a real-life woman, and that's if we count the person from Minifigures Series 5 who's officially designated "Egyptian Queen" as being Cleopatra, as that minifigure was addressed in The LEGO Movie.

As the project creator notes, there may not be a lot of sets (if any) specifically created to represent exclusively men or commemorate their achievements, but the vast, overwhelming majority of sets do that in effect anyway. The tiny number of sets specifically designed to feature exclusively women just help make up a tiny, tiny bit of the overall disparity, and don't detract from all the men-only sets.

Actually my biggest gripe is addressed here. If it were a generic space exploration set that happened to predominantly focus on females, I would definitely get behind it. If that was the project, it would be more about space exploration or NASA than about pandering to a feminist audience. All other space exploration sets that came from Ideas had male minifigures, but none were called "Men of NASA," or "Men of Apollo 11," or anything of the sort. The fact that there have been no sets where the focus is on the gender of the individuals makes this one stand out more as pandering. It's also combining all of these women and their accomplishments into one set, reducing them to the single accomplishment of "Women can explore space too!"

While yes, there is a focus on the accomplishments of these women (which is definitely an important thing to take not of), the bigger focus is on the fact that they are women. That's my problem.

Anyways, I've probably talked more about this than I intended to at this point. Ultimately, I'd be happy to see the set hit the shelves. I just can't get away from the feeling that this only exists to placate feminists.

[Robert8]

Yeah I don't think my project is gonna make the September mark. January at most.

Hmmm...... I'd say May.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Robert8

[Artanis I]

If only there was an Ideas set about space exploration that had a gender neutral assortment of minifigs and wasn't just representing a single country's achievements...

[x105Black]

If only there was an Ideas set about space exploration that had a gender neutral assortment of minifigs and wasn't just representing a single country's achievements...

And plays to the fans love of classic themes...

[jimmynick]

And plays to the fans love of classic themes...

And panders to AFOLs as a recreation of a long-existing well-loved MOC by a well-known builder. Let's just say every Ideas set, except for Birds and the Maze, panders to some group of people that TLG can leverage for easy cash.

[x105Black]

And panders to AFOLs as a recreation of a long-existing well-loved MOC by a well-known builder. Let's just say every Ideas set, except for Birds and the Maze, panders to some group of people that TLG can leverage for easy cash.

Fair enough. And the Birds and Maze products could fit into the pandering as well, although appealing to slightly smaller crowds.

But I guess I consider pandering to AFOLs a good use of the Ideas platform.

[Blondie-Wan]

This project seems not only a sound idea but also commentary, criticism and celebration of the whole Ideas program, all at once. I wish I'd thought of it myself; it's surprising it took this long for something like it to appear.

_______________

Given the support rates of the current Most Supported projects on the site, I doubt any more of them are going to make it into this batch before it closes in a month, but there's still plenty of time for another ultra-popular, phenomenal vote-getter to pop up out of nowhere and get fully supported within weeks of posting - after all, this batch already has not one but two projects that garnered full support in a mere three weeks or less. It's unlikely, but you never know! Meanwhile, the batch now has eight projects already, offering an overall solid slate of selections. I think we'll get sets out of both this one and the preceding one currently in review.

[AFOLguy1970]

^^Ha ha, I supported it of course and certainly was not expecting to find that!

I thought it would either be:

Women of Star Wars: Featuring Aunt Beru, Shmi Skywalker, Leia, Padme, and Mon Mothma with vignettes of blue milk, a vaporator, death star prison, senate pod, and death star hologram respectively.

or

A modular of a section of the SDCC featuring the exclusive minifigs as the "participants"

[Actor Builder]

Nice! I love Meta Art, and this is interactive Meta Art, which makes it even better.

Thanks for alerting me to it's presence, Blondie-Wan. I supported it.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Actor Builder

[Blondie-Wan]

So did I. Wouldn't it be a hoot if it actually became a set?! It would also be one last chance to get the LEGO die element, now that the Games line is sadly discontinued.

[ejred]

This. Esp because I'm pretty sure a "Men of NASA" would be a problem all the way around. Unless-- has that been done before and I just missed it? As a parent of a boy and a girl, sometimes the lack of one half frustrates me -- no matter which half it is.

Maybe "women of X" is too on the nose, but really the concept doesn't bother me. Why? Because, while you are right that a set overtly titled "men of X" would elicit pushback, if some set of explorers or scientists just had 5 guys, most people probably wouldn't think too much about it.

In other words, I don't see we are at equivalency yet. Most LEGO sets, like most other cultural properties, HAVE women now, but still often in ratios of 1 in 4 or 1 in 5. So I don't begrudge some boosterism for women or traditionally disadvantaged minorities. Society is moving in the right direction, so hopefully in a few more generations it will no longer be an issue...

[PicnicBasketSam]

That "LEGO Ideas Game" garnered 60 supporters in 2 days. I guess Deadpool has created an interest in extremely meta commentary on things.

Edited August 5, 2016 by PicnicBasketSam

[x105Black]

That "LEGO Ideas Game" garnered 60 supporters in 2 days. I guess Deadpool has created an interest in extremely meta commentary on things.

60 supporters is really not a lot. And I don't see what Deadpool has to do with it.

[Blondie-Wan]

Hmmm... I think I was wrong earlier. I'm increasingly beginning to think the Lamborghini Veneno Roadster will make it into this batch as well.

[Actor Builder]

I guess Deadpool has created an interest in extremely meta commentary on things.

I haven't even seen Deadpool.

But you know the saying...

"Meta is betta."

[Robert8]

Hmmm... I think I was wrong earlier. I'm increasingly beginning to think the Lamborghini Veneno Roadster will make it into this batch as well.

I think the 3 projects in the top row will make it.

Women of NASA brought some attention to them

[jonwil]

I would be interested in the Lamborghini but I doubt it would pass review.