The Lunacy of Lego Investors

[ResIpsaLoquitur]

noun

noun: greed

intense and selfish desire for something, especially wealth, power, or food.

I believe those using the aforementoined word in this thread are referring to the motivation of some LEGO buyers; that they buy specific sets simply to acquire a profit (specifically from that of LEGO collectors) instead of buying for the love and appreciation of LEGO.

What about people who buy and sell for a living? There's a Lego Seller who operates a whole brick-and-mortar store near my home. Mostly, he buys sets, removes the minifigures and sells those on Bricklink, and then sells the sets separately for a fraction of the original cost. Seems that he's profiting on the minifigs and making extra off the sets. He also sells individual parts, holds little Lego "clubs" and "camps" for kids, hosts birthday parties, etc. As far as I can tell, he's living off this (and has a wife and young daughter, so it's supporting them as well). My guess is that everything he does is driven by profit. He has fun doing it and clearly his customers enjoy the place (I thought his model wasn't sustainable, but he's pulling it off well), but he's got to live off his profit. (Context: Here's his website. I am not a shill for his shop; I've only bought from there twice.)

What's the difference between that guy and anybody else who buys up stuff for resale?

Edited May 30, 2014 by ResIpsaLoquitur

[Lego Otaku]

Personally I don't care about those who invests in retired sets but I would have liked to be able to find newly released sets without paying an arm and a leg for one. Those resellers are taking advantage of marking tactic: supply and demand. Early on when releases are often scattered and somewhat limited people who really wanted the sets may be more willing to pay extra premiums to whoever gets it first. It's not really greed as someone makes it sound. I am more than happy to wait for resupply to find them at reasonable price.

[lowbike1]

Sounds like a whole lot of "Boo-hoo-hoo" to me. Get a job, get some money and buy what you want! I just sold a PotC Black Pearl in a damaged box for 200$+ that I bought for 30$. Why am I the bad guy for someone willing to pay me?

THESE ARE TOYS!

They are not a necessity to live a complete life. Don't be mad or upset at people who are willing to buy/sell at a higher rate/price than you are.

Amen sister (or brother)

[fred67]

I believe those using the aforementoined word in this thread are referring to the motivation of some LEGO buyers; that they buy specific sets simply to acquire a profit (specifically from that of LEGO collectors) instead of buying for the love and appreciation of LEGO.

Except that people choosing to earn a living this way, or support their LEGO habit this way, are not "greedy" unless you think anyone who wants to make any money is "greedy." After all, it's not like anyone is forcing people to buy the sets at outrageous mark-ups.

Is anyone that sells anything greedy?

Now the wealthy guy that fraudulently cheated people to support his LEGO habit is greedy; people who fraudulently deal with LEGO (steals identities, takes figures from boxes then returns the sets, does drop-ship scams, etc), now THOSE people are greedy scumbags.

Buying something then selling it to a willing buyer is not "greedy."

Edited May 30, 2014 by fred67

[Artanis I]

This is pretty hilarious.

I'm curious as to how my comment is so hilarious when I gave a first-hand example of what behaviour I dislike and the consequence of it (that curiously was consistent with your stated exception to your own rule). Did you read more than the first line of my post? No need to be so disrespectful just because you disagree with some posts in this topic. This is a forum for adults, not teenagers.

[TheLegGodt]

Great discussion this, I am really enjoying it!

Just an additional observation: in Holland the reseller/second hand sets are sold usually through Marktplaats, a site where you can advertise your goods, set a price and let people make their own offer as well. So it's not like ebay where you have to bid and you have to sell once the bidding time is over. On Marktplaats some sets are for sale for a very long time. What I always see is the same people bidding and offering ludicrous prices, meaning that I think some of these sellers are purposely driving the prices up. As I stated earlier, I once sold some 41999 sets - see my other post in this thread for the reasoning. The point is, I was a charging under the normal, 'going' price (I think it was the going price) since I honestly wanted to get rid of them. I do not in principle resell lego. As soon as I put it on the site, some aggressive resellers immediately offered to pay ridiculous amounts like a 1000 euros, just to scare people away from my offer and/or raise the price as well.

I have no problem in principle with resellers or the secondary market - we have deeply engrained capitalism in our society and that way of life and this it where capitalism can rear its ugly head - but I do have a problem with unregulated markets where this kind unfair behaviour can take place. Maybe we need a regulated Lego secondary market with transparent buy and sell prices and a market authority. I think anyone who sets that platform up will make some real money off Lego

[Commander Turtle]

This is an excellent discussion.

Personally, I believe anyone is welcome to purchase 50 copies of sets while they're available to the general public without limitation. If you went out now and bought 50 Haunted Houses to resell, more power to you. If it's a month before the set goes off the shelves, that's a little shakier, but debatably still okay. The reason for this is that Lego simply prints more, and having more in existence results in more sets on the second hand market. Contrary to what some people believe, this helps keep prices down.

The flip side of this is when people buy out limited sets - 41999 and the Curiosity are the two horrendous examples of late, though there are many more throughout the years. If someone buys even just 4 copies of those sets, I believe they are scumbags who are killing the fun for honest fans. This is because they are actively depriving 3 people of the set at retail price for their own gain - those people can't just go back next week when the set is back in stock.

Basically, mass release reselling: bang on! Limited edition reselling: go drown yourself! Politely.

[Heppeng]

What about people who buy and sell for a living? There's a Lego Seller who operates a whole brick-and-mortar store near my home. Mostly, he buys sets, removes the minifigures and sells those on Bricklink, and then sells the sets separately for a fraction of the original cost. Seems that he's profiting on the minifigs and making extra off the sets. He also sells individual parts, holds little Lego "clubs" and "camps" for kids, hosts birthday parties, etc. As far as I can tell, he's living off this (and has a wife and young daughter, so it's supporting them as well). My guess is that everything he does is driven by profit. He has fun doing it and clearly his customers enjoy the place (I thought his model wasn't sustainable, but he's pulling it off well), but he's got to live off his profit. (Context: Here's his website. I am not a shill for his shop; I've only bought from there twice.)

What's the difference between that guy and anybody else who buys up stuff for resale?

Re-read the first three words of the dictionary description of greed, and compare that to what you have written above. In what way is that difference not abundantly clear?

[UsernameMDM]

I'm curious as to how my comment is so hilarious when I gave a first-hand example of what behaviour I dislike and the consequence of it (that curiously was consistent with your stated exception to your own rule). Did you read more than the first line of my post? No need to be so disrespectful just because you disagree with some posts in this topic. This is a forum for adults, not teenagers.

I guess you haven't been reading what I typed. YOU had just as much opportunity as THAT GUY to get the sets. He showed up, and got what he wanted. Unless he is in some super secret access to these sets before anyone else does, then everyone gets the same chance. Did he buy all of them? If not, then the next guy that bought 2 or 3, can you be mad at him too? What about the guy that bought the last one? How bad is he?

Like I said before, quit whining and making excuses and get the sets you want. Take some responsibility for your own action, or in this case, inaction.

How's that for adult thinking?

This is an excellent discussion.

Personally, I believe anyone is welcome to purchase 50 copies of sets while they're available to the general public without limitation. If you went out now and bought 50 Haunted Houses to resell, more power to you. If it's a month before the set goes off the shelves, that's a little shakier, but debatably still okay. The reason for this is that Lego simply prints more, and having more in existence results in more sets on the second hand market. Contrary to what some people believe, this helps keep prices down.

The flip side of this is when people buy out limited sets - 41999 and the Curiosity are the two horrendous examples of late, though there are many more throughout the years. If someone buys even just 4 copies of those sets, I believe they are scumbags who are killing the fun for honest fans. This is because they are actively depriving 3 people of the set at retail price for their own gain - those people can't just go back next week when the set is back in stock.

Basically, mass release reselling: bang on! Limited edition reselling: go drown yourself! Politely.

I don't get it. How EXACTLY does it matter if I buy 10 sets of the Haunted House the day it was released vs the last 10 on the shelf? It's still 10 no matter how you look at it. There will always be the first and the last, and they all come from the same supply.

Lego is intentionally created a collectible and a 'run' on their products with limit release sets. This happens to ANYTHING people perceive as collectible. That's the nature of the beast.

[badbob001]

I don't get it. How EXACTLY does it matter if I buy 10 sets of the Haunted House the day it was released vs the last 10 on the shelf? It's still 10 no matter how you look at it. There will always be the first and the last, and they all come from the same supply.

You forget about the storefront factor. If one buys all the inventory from the stores and faster than they can re-supply from LEGO, then this creates an artificial rise in demand (and price) by reducing the supply. Obviously this is easier to do when the item is near end of life and no more will be manufactured. So it's not a matter of someone restocking their personal store but emptying out the stock of other stores.

[rob-cubed]

There's a Lego Seller who operates a whole brick-and-mortar store near my home. Mostly, he buys sets, removes the minifigures and sells those on Bricklink, and then sells the sets separately for a fraction of the original cost.

Small world! I've been there before, he strikes me as more of a fan supporting his own habit than trying to retire off of it. If you don't care about getting the minifigs, you can actually get a pretty good deal on new sets at a reduced price. You can even buy just one vehicle from a set. The full sets he does sell at a slight markup over retail but it's usually still cheaper than Toys R Us prices. Frankly I'd rather go to his place than the nearby LEGO store, because he carries some used/retired stuff as well.

IMO he's in the same league as the people who buy bulk lots off Craigslist or at yard sales and then part them out for a small profit. Most of those guys also fall into the hobbyist camp and are providing a service back to the community. I don't feel he falls into the "greed" category because he's not sitting on a lot of NIB sets but immediately flipping them. There's clearly a market for it, and parents seem to be thrilled to be able to get "cheap" LEGO from him.

Edited May 30, 2014 by rob-cubed

[UsernameMDM]

You forget about the storefront factor. If one buys all the inventory from the stores and faster than they can re-supply from LEGO, then this creates an artificial rise in demand (and price) by reducing the supply. Obviously this is easier to do when the item is near end of life and no more will be manufactured. So it's not a matter of someone restocking their personal store but emptying out the stock of other stores.

Is there only 1 store the supply is going through? No. During the shelf life of a set (which I think is from 2-3 years for non-limited runs), you can go to just about any store with Lego or order it online. This artificial rise argument is just weak really. Again (and again), quit being mad at the people that have and make it happen. Be one of them. If you want the set, GO GET IT. You have 2-3 years to get just about ANY set you want OR you could just look the instructions up online to build it.

[ResIpsaLoquitur]

No, I agree and hope that I didn't come off as knocking BGM. I bought a Lone Ranger stagecoach from him, as it was all I needed for a MOC and was glad that I could skip the minfigs to get a reduced price. He also had a "booze and bricks" event for adults which I'd like to try.

(I do like the local Lego Store though. The manager is a really sweet lady who has pulled stuff out from the back for me on request, particularly PAB stuff that wasn't on the wall yet.)

Back on point, though, I have dificulty distinguishing between a guy like BGM who buys and sells to make a profit, and a guy who buys up stuff at the store to resell...and make a profit. One may be "greedy" in the character flaw sense and really may be delighting at the thought of some kid who didn't get to buy a DeLorean, but that's his flaw and not mine. It's still a free market and my choice to let him get to the store before me to buy a rare set. (And with the online shop, I have even less excuse.)

[rob-cubed]

OK, so, I'm going to have to head down there for "booze and bricks"... too bad it's 40 minutes from where I live...

[Off the wall]

Unless 'greed' has an element of criminality to it, there's nothing wrong with 'greed'.

I see reselling (which I don't do) an element of collecting and enjoying the hobby.

I don't sell anything anymore. I either give it away or donate it to Goodwill. Unless it's my car, and then I'll trade it in.

You'd think I'm a reseller since I have ten 10211s. Nope. Just eccentric and combining them into one very large 10211.

[UsernameMDM]

Unless 'greed' has an element of criminality to it, there's nothing wrong with 'greed'.

And having something doesn't make you greedy. You can be poor and still be greedy.

I see a lot of people in this thread without the set they want who seem just as greedy as they claim the resellers are. Lots of 'mine, mine, mine, gimme, gimme' without any REAL effort going into getting what they want.

If you want it, go work for it, and get it!

Edited May 30, 2014 by UsernameMDM

[Chills]

Re-read the first three words of the dictionary description of greed, and compare that to what you have written above. In what way is that difference not abundantly clear?

Thank you.

I think those using "greed" are referring to people who sell LEGO to make a massive profit, vs. a smaller profit. Obviously if you can make a bunch of cash on something you must be greedy, right? Where is the line drawn on how much profit is too much?

I sympathize with the OP, the spirit and fun of collecting LEGO gest tarnished when people try to make massive profits off of rare or discontinued sets. However, this is the reality of the world we live in, and if we want to change behavior its the BUYERS who need to do it. If no one is buying these sets at outrageous prices then the sellers will slowly disappear.

The key is that the buyers have to hold fast, and not buy sets they want at these 'high' prices. The buyers are allowing this 'greed' to exist.

[ResIpsaLoquitur]

One of my City Advent Calendars sold for $70. I paid $30 for it retail. I thought it insane that somebody would bid $40 over retail for a silly Advent Calendar, but clearly he was willing to do so. Me, I wasn't willing to tell him he was paying too much. Maybe if I knew his kids were starving, I'd have refused to sell and told him to get his priorities straight.

This was on eBay, and I set the bidding at the price I paid. I can't help it if a buyer was willing to go that much over. If there's a limit to how much I should accept, I don't know what it is. Would it have been wrong to accept a bid of $80? $100? $500? Clearly there's got to be an excessive spending limit, but I'm not sure that's the business of anyone but the person willing to pay it.

I do wonder if some of these sellers accept counteroffers, particularly if their stock is just sitting there. eBay now lets you counter someone's Buy It Now price, to see if they'l be willing to sell for less to just get the thing sold. Maybe some of you should try that with sets you really want where the seller has marked it up. Who knows, they may budge.

[rob-cubed]

The key is that the buyers have to hold fast, and not buy sets they want at these 'high' prices. The buyers are allowing this 'greed' to exist.

Another way of looking at it... it's the buyers who are actually paying high prices that are greedy! Resellers are just reacting to demand.

I left my dark ages too late for the beginning of the modulars and missed out on Cafe Corner and Green Grocer. I brick-build GG... and because of my own greed, I'm sure the cost of available 1x8 sand green and 1x2 groove bricks went up on the secondary market. I recognize I'm one half of the equation that makes retired sets or rare parts so expensive and creates the market that the resellers are targeting.

[fred67]

I think those using "greed" are referring to people who sell LEGO to make a massive profit, vs. a smaller profit. Obviously if you can make a bunch of cash on something you must be greedy, right? Where is the line drawn on how much profit is too much?

So TLG is greedy? No, seriously... I know they are producing the sets, and entitled to set their own prices, but over the past decade they've made massive amounts of profit, with increases in profits exceeding increases in sales almost every year (generally meaning rising profit margins). Since TLG is not publicly traded, one has to do some math, but a couple of years ago I figured TLG's profit margins to be north of 20%. A survey I read around the same time suggested people generally thinking 10 to 20% profit margins reasonable. Let's take an admittedly extreme case of minifigures in the U.S.. If we assume TLG was making such a profit margin 4 years ago, when they first started selling CMFs, what does a 100% price increase since then suggest?

It suggests they are not happy with merely making a great profit, it suggests they are maximizing the return on their investments. Are they greedy? Especially given the case we're talking about something as non-essential as LEGO... something nobody is required to buy... are they greedy? A kid in the U.S. can only buy half as many now as they could 4 short years ago.

Would it have been wrong to accept a bid of $80? $100? $500? Clearly there's got to be an excessive spending limit, but I'm not sure that's the business of anyone but the person willing to pay it.

No, you weren't wrong, and it's clearly not wrong to accept some exhorbitant amount someone willingly offers you for an honestly advertised product.

Another way of looking at it... it's the buyers who are actually paying high prices that are greedy! Resellers are just reacting to demand.

I left my dark ages too late for the beginning of the modulars and missed out on Cafe Corner and Green Grocer. I brick-build GG... and because of my own greed, I'm sure the cost of available 1x8 sand green and 1x2 groove bricks went up on the secondary market. I recognize I'm one half of the equation that makes retired sets or rare parts so expensive and creates the market that the resellers are targeting.

These are excellent case points... a "collector" is willing to pay more for an original. I was not willing to pay the going prices for Sante Fe Super Chief cars, so I bricklinked them. I ended up compromising on the roofs, which ended up black instead of grey. If I wanted it more for "collecting" purposes, I would have paid more. Even at the low end, I bricklinked a snowspeeder before the Wampa Cave set introduced a new one. It's not exact, but it's good enough.

At the same time, having those complete sets gives people who missed out the opportunity to get them.

TLG can't keep every set in production forever. That's just the nature of the beast. I'd like for the people who believe that something should be done to come up with a reasonable way to stop this from happening... one that doesn't violate the rights of buyers and sellers alike.

[danth]

Like I said before, quit whining and making excuses and get the sets you want. Take some responsibility for your own action, or in this case, inaction.

How's that for adult thinking?

I don't buy this argument because it can be applied to anything.

Someone came up to you on the street and beat you with a baseball bat? Waaah, quit whining. Man up and learn how to fight and protect yourself. You could have beat him with a bat before he got you, but you didn't.

Someone broke into your house, stole all your Legos, then burned the place down? Waah, quit whining, you should have had better security and had your house built out of asbestos.

It's like you don't believe in the concept of someone doing something bad to other people, because waaah, quit whining, those people should just man up.

Edited May 30, 2014 by danth

[fred67]

I don't buy this argument because it can be applied to anything.

Someone came up to you on the street and beat you with a baseball bat? Waaah, quit whining. Man up and learn how to fight and protect yourself. You could have beat him with a bat before he got you, but you didn't.

Someone broke into your house, stole all your Legos, then burned the place down? Waah, quit whining, you should have had better security and had your house built out of asbestos.

It's like you don't believe in the concept of someone doing something bad to other people, because waaah, quit whining, those people should just man up.

I'm sorry, but comparing something that YOU are responsible for (spending your own money) with something someobody ELSE is responsible for (criminal behavior violating your rights) is absolutely ridiculous.

[danth]

I'm sorry, but comparing something that YOU are responsible for (spending your own money) with something someobody ELSE is responsible for (criminal behavior violating your rights) is absolutely ridiculous.

I thought we were talking about scalpers? You know, other people.

[Darth Punk]

I wouldn't worry too much about resellers. Eventually many are going to have all these sets that no one will buy. The market will always correct itself. Be it houses, comics, beany babies, baseball cards, etc... Just spend a bit,of time reading brick picker and you see a plethora of people buying up sets like they are gold. But with every boom comes a bust. Not to say legoes wouldn't still be valuable, but the margins will be too thin for people to bother so they will move on to the next latest and greatest thing.

[fred67]

I thought we were talking about scalpers? You know, other people.

So now scalpers force you to buy LEGO at gunpoint, or do you get the free will to decide how you're going to spend your money? Do you NOT see the difference? The comparison is absurd.