AG - Rules and FAQ

[mccoyed]

No, your build is okay, even if the story could have been more explicit on the spying part. In case of "problem", I would have posted in the build thread, because PMs are considered too secret

I just thought it was a good time to remind everyone about those rules. The tags are important, and some equipments have restrictions.

Haha glad to hear this and yes, I suppose it's good to move away from "secret" decisions and discussions at least in terms of rulings and stuff like that.

My story wasn't explicit that Kawashita was spying on Octan because I was trying to make that ambiguous and fun. I also think that Koro being involved with the spying activities of his faction should count, even if that doesn't mean he is physically spying himself. Spying and espionage are very big umbrellas of different activities and ideas, so being overly literal about it is just being narrow for no reason. Just my opinion, but I think we're on the same page.

[Kodan Black]

If you go by shows like The Americans (and what the US/USSR did during the Cold War) there is a pretty wide range of things that fall under the conduct of spies.

[mccoyed]

If you go by shows like The Americans (and what the US/USSR did during the Cold War) there is a pretty wide range of things that fall under the conduct of spies.

Yes. Exactly. It's also easy to find out about real life espionage operations that have been declassified or popularized in fiction. Some stuff is so crazy and elaborate (Argo for example) that it's hard to believe it actually happens. That said, it's not like I'm advocating a super realistic attitude toward spycraft and espionage. I think it's a good idea to be loose and "action movie" about it. I'm taking more cues from Mission Impossible than from The Americans, for example. Context is what matters most to me, and the context is a cold war between three companies vying for limited resources and territory. Everything Koro has done falls under the bracket of "espionage" within that context, and he's done lots of different stuff:

-An enforcement assassination to protect Kawashita secrets (Swift Reprisal)

-A pre-emptive strike to disrupt interference to Kawashita interests (Angry Angel)

-Directly infiltrated an enemy base to gain intel (Active Camo)

-Fought off an ambush when pursuing investigation and intel (Drone Duel)

And now he's:

-Recovered sensitive Kawashita information/property from the bowels of a giant worm (Water Worm)

To me, this all fits as "spying" if the definition of spying is widened to include all those activities we could justify as fitting into the context of espionage manoeuvres (and it should be, or the "Special Operations" job should actually just be "Spy").

[Kai NRG]

Not to poke at your build, mccoyed, but I do think that for the future it would make more sense to define spying as you putting yourself directly in contact with the other corp as you try to damage them. Listening in of course is the classic example, but stealing information, sneaking into a base/ship/anything belonging to another corp, etc. would also work. All three of your first ones fit that category perfectly. The other two, I'm not so sure about. Does fighting off an ambush really classify as spying? It strikes me as more like the opposite, you're fighting off their spies, unless, and this may have been the case in your build, you were already in a position where you were trying to gather information from them and on their territory - in which case of course the spy act is that you were there, not that you fought them off.

For your other build - and don't take this wrongly please, I have no problem with it counting this time around - I'm not sure that it should generally count unless the worm was an Octan partisan. How are you directly damaging Octan? You're retrieving information, but not from Octan, as far as I can tell.

Here's my concern - if gathering any sort of information classifies as espionage/spying, then literally anything counts as spying! All you have to do is open your eyes, and you're gathering information! Or not even that, if you just use your sense of touch, or hearing, or... taste... well, whatever. If you ask me, that kind of gives the spy jobs a bit of an advantage, don't you think?

Edited June 19, 2015 by Kai NRG

[mccoyed]

Not to poke at your build, Mrcp6, but I do think that for the future it would make more sense to define spying as you putting yourself directly in contact with the other corp as you try to damage them. Listening in of course is the classic example, but stealing information, sneaking into a base/ship/anything belonging to another corp, etc. would also work. All three of your first ones fit that category perfectly. The other two, I'm not so sure about. Does fighting off an ambush really classify as spying? It strikes me as more like the opposite, you're fighting off their spies, unless, and this may have been the case in your build, you were already in a position where you were trying to gather information from them and on their territory - in which case of course the spy act is that you were there, not that you fought them off.

For your other build - and don't take this wrongly please, I have no problem with it counting this time around - I'm not sure that it should generally count unless the worm was an Octan partisan. How are you directly damaging Octan? You're retrieving information, but not from Octan, as far as I can tell.

Here's my concern - if gathering any sort of information classifies as espionage/spying, then literally anything counts as spying! All you have to do is open your eyes, and you're gathering information! Or not even that, if you just use your sense of touch, or hearing, or... taste... well, whatever. If you ask me, that kind of gives the spy jobs a bit of an advantage, don't you think?

First off, name's McCoyed... it says so right on my post.

When you're investigating a mysterious enemy and you get ambushed? Sure, why not? Spies fighting each other is called counter-intelligence. They train special personnel for that in pretty much every country, last I checked.

The worm is not an Octan partisan. The act of espionage in this case is protecting information from Octan incursions on the planet. It's a coincidence and an obstacle that Koro has to deal with that the chip he's recovering was swallowed by a giant worm. The worm has nothing to do with Octan, but the race to capture planets and resources definitely does. What Koro was doing was definitely part of that. The information doesn't have to be Octan's information. The information simply cannot fall into Octan's hands. Or anyone else's. That's the whole idea, and I don't see how it's an issue unless you're taking the idea that "spying" or "espionage" activities are to be taken extremely literally. To me, that hampers creativity and is too rigid an approach in general. If you start applying that logic to every other role, you'll quickly run out of room for variables and interpretations.

I don't see your point about spies having an advantage. My whole problem is wanting to avoid having every "Spying" build be literally eavesdropping. But just so we're clear, there actually isn't a spy job. Spying is just one of the several things Special Operations (an actual job in AG) can do. Koro is Special Operations, which seems to be one of the most flexible jobs in the game thus far. I've had other builds posted as "Military" because they were more confrontational. For example, Angry Angel is not "spying". It's not "espionage". But it definitely falls under the very general (which may be its own problem) aegis of the "Special Operations" role. Compared to Angry Angel or Drone Duel (or any other build except Active Camo), this new Water Worm build is certainly "spying". Would you argue that Swift Reprisal wasn't spying? In that case, Koro is trying to do the same thing: prevent secrets from falling into the hands of the enemy. I didn't name the enemy in Water Worm which seems to be the problem. If so, it's pretty silly to me. In the context of the political situation in Andromeda's Gates, Koro is basically James Bond or Ethan Hunt or Makoto Kusanagi. If you think about it, you don't see those characters sitting around listening in on people's conversations all the time, right?

[mrcp6d]

Not to poke at your build, Mrcp6,

Hey! Leave me out of it!

[Kai NRG]

Hahaha, sorry about that. I get my Ms mixed up.

[mccoyed]

The funny part is that I always have trouble remembering "mrcp6d" and I have to look to make sure I'm typing it right every time. :P

[Kai NRG]

The funny part is that I always have trouble remembering "mrcp6d" and I have to look to make sure I'm typing it right every time. :P

I know, took me forever to get it down right too! Now it looks like I can't get it out of my head though...

[Dragonfire]

Just a little query here: can I create a sentient alien character in addition to my sigfig, to be used as a "sigfig" in alien builds?

[Bob De Quatre]

Just a little query here: can I create a sentient alien character in addition to my sigfig, to be used as a "sigfig" in alien builds?

Yes

[Dragonfire]

OK, thanks, maybe I will create one soon!

[Bob De Quatre]

As a result of the poll regarding rules, and after some discussion among the staff, the following rules will be in effect starting this week:

- The checks for planet control will be done after all the builds domination points are entered into the software.

- A corporation controlling a planet will loose control of it if its domination points get to 0.

- In addition to the weekly build, players are allowed to post freebuilds that won't be scored. They must be prefixed by "[Freebuild]".

[mccoyed]

Oh wow. That freebuild rule is awesome!

[Dannylonglegs]

Oh wow. That freebuild rule is awesome!

As much as I agree that it is cool for those who want to, I personally prefer to group my story builds (even on different planets) into one collection of builds. It was ruled that a build could be a collection of vignettes, and that's my personal preference. I think that the freebuild postings may be a bit confusing.

~Insectoid Aristocrat

[mccoyed]

I don't know. That sounds like a complaint that there's too much ice cream in your ice cream, if you see what I mean. If all the builds are correctly tagged FREEBUILD, then it won't be confusing at all.

[Commander Turtle]

I've been making little extras to my main MOCs for the last few builds, I think it's a fun way to tell a story. I like that there's an opinion for people who want to tell even more stories, although I don't have the time for that myself!

[Dannylonglegs]

@Mccoyed: yeah you may be right. I personally won't use the option though. I think it's more efficient to just consolidate stories. also, what Commander Turtle said: I don't have the time to use that option.

~Insectoid Aristocrat

[Kodan Black]

Much respect to those able to keep up with weekly builds, challenge builds, and life while still having time for free builds! I'm barely able to stay afloat as is!

[Bob De Quatre]

Much respect to those able to keep up with weekly builds, challenge builds, and life while still having time for free builds! I'm barely able to stay afloat as is!

We have no proof that they have a life...

[aeralure]

• A customized sig-fig is fine, but all your other minifigs and builds should be purist.
  

A question regarding this rule, if I may Bob?

Would it be allowed to use a custom printed 2x2 flag piece as an additional element for my sigfig? Octan has many great official pieces to use with builds and our identity in logo form (and Mantis) is a little more challenging to convey. Given a samurai-like identity for Kawashita, and a large part of the reason I joined, I wanted to use a samurai-style back flag for use in ground combat. Being a pilot, it's probably quite rare we'd see it in builds, frankly - it would really just be formal. I would use it in my sigfig picture, if allowed - and if I actually got it done - here I'm really only inquiring if it's ok (?).

Edited June 24, 2015 by aeralure

[Bob De Quatre]

There's no problem if you want to print the logo of your corporation.

[aeralure]

Cool thanks Bob! That was fast.

Follow-up question:

What about 1-2 bricks of some shape or form with a corporate logo (only) to use in builds? The rules seem to indicate that all build bricks need to be official (and for good reason - I understand that). Just wasn't sure about a corporate logo. Sigfig flag tile makes me happy enough if I decided to do that. Thanks!

Edited June 24, 2015 by aeralure

[Dannylonglegs]

Cool thanks Bob! That was fast.

Follow-up question:

What about 1-2 bricks of some shape or form with a corporate logo (only) to use in builds?

I think Bob printed some custom "Ag" Octan logos for his very first Octan craft, so I think that'd be fine too.

~Insectoid Aristocrat

[aeralure]

I think Bob printed some custom "Ag" Octan logos for his very first Octan craft, so I think that'd be fine too.

Oh I'm going to pass out from happiness.

If it is allowed, what's a place that might be recommended, if you know or have a suggestion? There's a fair number of them. Just wondering if we have a favorite in terms of method/quality? New frontiers for me.

Edited June 24, 2015 by aeralure