gylman Posted June 5, 2007 Posted June 5, 2007 From my experience seeing my kids play - a story line is extremely helpful to initiate and maintain interest in a line. Once a certain depth of interest is reached, the kids go beyond it. But you need that initial spark, especially because kids these days do not just sit on the floor for 3 hours playing with Lego... they have too much else on the go. If it doesn't capture them within 10-20 minutes, forget it. The story line is key to the continuing success of Bionicle,and the apparently emerging success of Exo Force. I keep coming back to this... that's why Lego needs the Adventurers! Built in story line, characters, awesome web site at the time. I don't know just how poorly the last line did, but designs can always be improved. Quote
natelite Posted June 5, 2007 Posted June 5, 2007 wow...this is certainly news to me. if the sales are anything to go by, i would have guessed castle being the more popular theme. ultimately i think tlc thinks with its wallet than with kiddies' response. so :-P meh. castle will still outlast MM judging by sales result... :-P Quote
Brick Miner Posted June 5, 2007 Posted June 5, 2007 thanks for doing some research in this area Berry... this is interesting... we should follow this. I didn Quote
Iron Moose Posted June 5, 2007 Posted June 5, 2007 (edited) As far as I know, Aquaraiders are finished. (I'm sad too. I liked the Shipwreck a lot, and the base looks good too. ) Here's a dimension I don't think has been explored in the relative coolness of Castle v. Mars Mission: accessibility. What do I mean by this? I mean that Castles, Knights, Horses, Skeletons and Evil Wizards are far more prevalent in today's pop culture than ominous insectile aliens and heroic astronauts, which means that kids may already have conceptions of wizards that don't line up well with the new Castle - for instance, the only Wizard we have so far is evil, and with the HP juggernaut, that's not so cool. I mean that thanks to KK and HP, buyers already have two internally-coherent, story-backed ranges of Castle Lego, and that this new one appears more kid-unfriendly than either of those. I also mean that castles are pretty much public domain now. Anyone can build one, and most kids have an idea of what one looks like. However, I think it's far trickier to conceive of a cool Dropship, Drilling Unit or tubularly-loaded Space base - all with built-in stories thanks to the orange tubes and Alien Flying Machines. Especially given that most of the spacier parts on the market nowadays come from properties that already have strong stories attached to them: SW and E-F. So for Mars Mission, aside from 'generally white and enclosed' TLC can define the world of Mars to a greater degree than they can the Castle. I also think that there's been a very striking lack of Sci-Fi in Lego lately, and that kids are gravitating, no pun intended, to the thing that has a more implicit story to it - which happens to be Totally Conceptually Different from anything TLC's done since the last Mars Mission. Don't get me wrong: I like the looks of the new castle stuff a lot, and I am probably going to end up with a lot of them - but when I first saw the new range in a store, I went with the newer stuff (Mars Mission) then the older stuff I was continuing to follow (Exo-Force), and once I'm done with those, maybe I'll start on the good knights. However, it's now something like 2:20 AM and I've just read a few hundred pages on Canadian Media Regulatory Framework. Good knight, all. P. S. All the above aside, I can't pick which one I think will last longer - this is just why I think MM is being perceived better by kids now. All the theory and philosophy above pale before the power children (which I don't think I can count as, anymore) have over the marketplace. Edited June 5, 2007 by Iron Moose Quote
Shine Posted June 5, 2007 Posted June 5, 2007 Bah, kids these days disgust me, they have no imagination, and need to be spoon-fed some ill thought up storyline in order to enjoy their toys. That aside, it makes me wonder why Creator sells so well... Quote
snefroe Posted June 5, 2007 Posted June 5, 2007 (edited) From my experience seeing my kids play - a story line is extremely helpful to initiate and maintain interest in a line. Once a certain depth of interest is reached, the kids go beyond it. But you need that initial spark, especially because kids these days do not just sit on the floor for 3 hours playing with Lego... they have too much else on the go. If it doesn't capture them within 10-20 minutes, forget it. The story line is key to the continuing success of Bionicle,and the apparently emerging success of Exo Force. this is why the licenses are so important to lego: they already provide a strong backstory with lots of details, far better than any originel Lego backstory, probably the reason why lego would not go for adventures, but for indiana jones... the thing is that MM doesn't have a backstory either, well... not all that much anyway, but there's lots of room for fantasy, and let's face it, today, MM is closer to reality than the Middle Ages. i guess many young boys think they can one be up there, on Mars... Besides, Space in general is "in" again. The US is thinking of going to Mars and the moon, there's lots of excitement about new found planets,... Not to mention the fact that many hollywood films are sci fi's or close to... there's also a difference with the audience. Castle is an AFOL theme really. these beautiful mocs on classic castle are made by adults, it's not a surprise that they like the sets, considering the large number of figs. they can finally not only build big mocs but also populate them with lots of figs cheaply. Space is exactlty the other way around: many space fans are adults as well, but the sets aren't pretty much usefull for anything for afols. Afol space fans want brilliantly designed big ships, don't really care about the figs, they most of all want great parts... Edited June 5, 2007 by snefroe1 Quote
Joebot Posted June 5, 2007 Posted June 5, 2007 Bah, kids these days disgust me, they have no imagination, and need to be spoon-fed some ill thought up storyline in order to enjoy their toys.That aside, it makes me wonder why Creator sells so well... I've heard this argument a lot, that kids these days lack imagination. I'm just not quite sure that I buy it. I have two kids, ages 7 and 11. It's undoubtedly true that they would spend all their time in front of the TV or playing Nintendo, if I let them. When I made them turn that stuff off, then we spend hours playing with our Legos, or playing board games, or whatever. They certainly don't lack imagination. I don't think the problem is the kids. I think the problem is the parents. It's really easy to let the Electronic Babysitter do all the parenting. TV and video games are very seductive to kids. It's passive entertainment that requires little to no effort. As a parent, you gotta put rules around that stuff, and get your kids involved in other activities. As for the MM vs. Castle debate, I think the MM theme is yet-another short-lived theme that will stick around for a year, maybe two, then die. Sadly, this is becoming very common with Lego (Dino Attack, Vikings, etc.). -Joebot Quote
Brainbox Posted June 5, 2007 Posted June 5, 2007 wow...this is certainly news to me. if the sales are anything to go by, i would have guessed castle being the more popular theme. That's because we're buying them all... As far as I know, Aquaraiders are finished. (I'm sad too. I liked the Shipwreck a lot, and the base looks good too. ) That was pretty quick... However, I think it's far trickier to conceive of a cool Dropship, Drilling Unit or tubularly-loaded Space base - all with built-in stories thanks to the orange tubes and Alien Flying Machines. Especially given that most of the spacier parts on the market nowadays come from properties that already have strong stories attached to them: SW and E-F. So for Mars Mission, aside from 'generally white and enclosed' TLC can define the world of Mars to a greater degree than they can the Castle. Especially with all the sci-fi shows on TV now providing their own versions of what spacecraft should look like- stuff like Doctor Who, Star Trek, Star Wars, Battlestar Gallactica. Each is different (and better for it), but that makes it harder to define what a ship should look like. A castle, on the other hand, is a castle. There's not much else it can be. As far as backstory is concerned, both MM and Castle have one. True, it's not as involved as, say, Star Wars, but that leaves it open-ended enough to have ones own interpretation plastered on to it. New characters can be made easily here, whereas with licences and things like Adventurers, they have to be written in to the 'mythology.' With Castle and MM, you just build a ship/weapon/etc, add a character, and there you go. Quote
Brick Miner Posted June 5, 2007 Posted June 5, 2007 all of this discussion is actually pretty sad if true... as this tells us that sets design/construction is of little importance in the children Quote
snefroe Posted June 5, 2007 Posted June 5, 2007 all of this discussion is actually pretty sad if true...as this tells us that sets design/construction is of little importance in the children Quote
Brick Miner Posted June 5, 2007 Posted June 5, 2007 Sure, city has lots of details, but IMO, city is intended for a larger market than the little kids, city is also for AFOLS and teenagers and they require better sets. I guess lego can't handle too many of these high quality lines...city, AquaRaiders, new castle vs. KK2, SW (new MTT and AT-ST over old)... all are moving toward better set designs.so something must be said for having a theme that is well design, no matter the subject, castle or space. wait, it seems all SYSTEM style themes are moving toward better set designs, save MM *wacko* so, maybe its not a matter of castle over space at all !!! maybe its that kids do like simply designed themes, and the answer is that shallow :-D ------------------------------------------------ im not saying that is true, but im not even saying kids like MM mission over castle. id say we are making a lot of assumptions here. bottom line is which is selling better, and though i don't have any numbers myself, the castle sets are on backorder here in the states, and MM is not. - BrickMiner Quote
rexcal Posted June 5, 2007 Posted June 5, 2007 I think AquaRaiders could benefit from a story line... including more unique characters. i like the AR the best of the new 2007 lines (as a stand-alone theme). but, if it fails, i think it will be because it needs more story... I think so, too. I like AR the best of the new 2007 lines. Not, because I really would need a storyline for that theme, but because it helps selling it. I'm glad there are no villains in that theme, because this is just unnecessary. It's disappointing if AR really is already finished, but on the other hand it's harder to come up with new ideas for a theme like this than for a stheme like "Castle" or "Wild west" which have so many subthemes to explore, if one really wants... Do you get what I mean? Quote
snefroe Posted June 5, 2007 Posted June 5, 2007 ah yes, don't forget, many people are buying castle sets and MM sets at lego.com, because these sets aren't in most of the shops just yet. so any success may be deceaving... Quote
natelite Posted June 5, 2007 Posted June 5, 2007 well i think we've been saying this for quite some time now: lego prefers playability and less construction, designs have to be fairly simple and transparent. i met a dad the other day with his child and they bought this lego set, think it was the airplane, and dad told the lady at the counter that he had to build the set and his kid would play with it. it's also the reason why we're seeing fewer alternative models in a set these days. the idea is that you only build that one particular model and play with it...i'd say we're still seeing <insert that tiresome argument> set design. For instance, none of the MM seem to have detailed cockpits, not even a printed tile, just a guy sitting behind a window, that's it. That's juniiorisation too, but in a different way than making large parts. Sure, city has lots of details, but IMO, city is intended for a larger market than the little kids, city is also for AFOLS and teenagers and they require better sets. I guess lego can't handle too many of these high quality lines... Well, I think part of the problem is inflation. $50 20-30 years ago is a lot of money. You can't keep buying lots of $50 sets. So kids like myself (back then) only have at most 1 or 2 sets. So to create enough play value, we are forced to disassemble the primary model and rebuild into alternative models. And perhaps come up with original models by ourselves. These days $50 is cheap and everyone can afford to buy a lot more lego sets. There is less incentive to rebuild alternative models or to even invent your own. If you want new play value, you go out and get a new set. Quote
Berry Syedow Posted June 6, 2007 Author Posted June 6, 2007 Story does matter: Why do themes like creator succeed? It's probably because of parents. Is there any truth to this? I've read many a paragraph about a parent who doesn't buy sets from those other themes, preferring to tutor their children in the way of proper, imaginative LEGO building. Could this be the case? These type of sets are also brick heavy compared to their system counterparts. People like to get the most for their money... Sne/Asuka: Kids don't like lack of storyline in Castle; what about MM? Yeah, maybe it Quote
gylman Posted June 6, 2007 Posted June 6, 2007 The Cafe Corner has been on the top 25 sellers list for weeks, and I believe it is still there. Someone's buying this thing, and it can't just be lots of fanatical AFOLs. ;-) Actually, I would think that it is almost exclusively fanatical AFOLs buying this set. There is NO WAY any kid under 12 would even be interested in this, and normal teenagers do not sit at home building this kind of stuff. Neither of these two groups have the money to get this type of set, and if they did, it would not be spent on Lego. I believe that this group of sets will demonstrate to TLC that AFOLs are a more lucratic potential marked for Lego than had been thought previously. Quote
Starwars4J Posted June 6, 2007 Posted June 6, 2007 Well, I have to say I actually dislike the amount of story even MM or the new castle have. In the old days things were simple. Blacktron/wolfpack were the theives. Everyone else was the good guy. You could make certain branches fight, or ally against the enemy. You were in complete control! They really need to stop giving in to the "I don't know what to do with this because there's no comic in the back of the instructions!" mentality. Also, the fact mentioned earlier about a parent building the set for the kid certainly goes against the impression I've gotten lately of parents not caring enough to spend time with their children, though perhaps that was the exception. To be honest though, I don't know which disappoints me more :-/ Frankly I hope they would drop the MM series and go with ANOTHER space theme. Similarly, I would love to see castle start again with human factions, however I'd rather them just add more human factions to the current theme. Also, I'm curious about what will replace aquaraiders. Quote
Brick Miner Posted June 6, 2007 Posted June 6, 2007 Also, I'm curious about what will replace aquaraiders.is there any hard evidence/info from LEGO that AR are actually done ??? though, i admit, there is little left to explore with the theme.- BM Quote
snefroe Posted June 6, 2007 Posted June 6, 2007 is there any hard evidence/info from LEGO that AR are actually done ??? though, i admit, there is little left to explore with the theme.- BM honestly, AR came out of nowhere when they released it a year ago. there was no theme of the catalogue that preceeded the theme, sure aquaraiders and stuff, but that was years ago. it's a sort of stand alone theme with no longstanding fanbase, websites,... also, it was only available in specific countries and on lego.com. To me, it didn't really have any reason to exist and i can't really see a reason why they should continue. sure they could produce other sets, but i just don't think they'd attract as much attention as a new big space ship, a big castle,... Quote
xwingyoda Posted June 6, 2007 Posted June 6, 2007 Those 2 themes have a good future ahead of them IMO !! There is something crucial regarding playability: in EACH box, you have MFs and vehicles (...) of BOTH sides of the inner story (humans/aliens, knights/undead) !! So kids can really open a set (even the smaller set available) and Play ON directly !! Other themes such as city and SW do not have that. Take SW for instance, by box you only have Empire or Rebel ship !! Only with very rare sets you have a combination of both forces abay !! They should have included good/evil in a lot more sets IMO ;-) And BM, I think that AR is done for !! There are no novelties this year (weird regarding a january theme) and I sincerely doubt that this theme will reappear in '08 !! ESpecially that we know theat in '08 we'll have Indy, Castle, SW, city and probably some more MM sets. Thats just my opinion !! In order for AR to be more successive they should have done a treasure hunt quest plot where 2 themes are entengled in the quest for gold and power (sea domination) with those huge creatures part of their survival techniques and a lot of crap like that !! *yoda* Quote
alex54 Posted June 6, 2007 Posted June 6, 2007 There is something crucial regarding playability: in EACH box, you have MFs and vehicles (...) of BOTH sides of the inner story (humans/aliens, knights/undead) !!So kids can really open a set (even the smaller set available) and Play ON directly !! Other themes such as city and SW do not have that. Take SW for instance, by box you only have Empire or Rebel ship !! Only with very rare sets you have a combination of both forces abay !! They should have included good/evil in a lot more sets IMO ;-) Yes I agree with you, having both sides in a same box is nice! But for the City theme, it's not the case because it doesn't have sides... Or maybe workers/citizens, but workers are citizens too *wacko* . I don Quote
xwingyoda Posted June 6, 2007 Posted June 6, 2007 And for AR, maybe we will have 2 new sets like with the Vikings Quote
snefroe Posted June 6, 2007 Posted June 6, 2007 Maybe Alex, we can only hope !!I was thinkng of that recently: TLC should stop those AR themes and focus on City SUB themes like they did before a lot more !! We could have the return of Space, Paradisa, Divers and a lot of things like that that goes well in whatever city instead of those Alfa Team, Dino and wortless themes that just do nothing apart played with within its theme. Thats why I loved that shipwreck set - the best of the AR line IMO ;-) *yoda* well actually, these city sub space themes would not make me happy as a space fan. those sub sets are just city sets with a space shuttle or a rocket, that's not space. :-X i can understand that it satisfies the needs of city fans who want more than the current city line, but it doesn't help the space fanbase Quote
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