Females in Bionicle

[dviddy]

I don't know, let's say, Optimus Prime or Darth Vader a woman

That sounds fine my me, and I'm a huge fan of both series (in case my fanhood of the latter wasn't obvious).

(Also, I'd make a pretty great woman.)

[CabooseBM]

As a huge transformers fan, I would be absolutely fine if Optimus Prime were a woman.

But that's besides the point, which is, why is gender above all else a sticking point? I don't get why it's a big deal, I mean, unless you really cared about a character's voice actor/actress, which I kind of really doubt. It's no bigger a change than from Mata to Nuva or Nuva to Mistika. Like, what do you think comes with gender that would make it a big change?

Now I could see it being a problem if as a continuation Tahu switched genders "just because" with no retconning and lots of handwaving, because that kinda trivializes the sort of stuff transgender folks go through, but I really, REALLY doubt that will ever be the case. (It would be acceptable if, during the peacetime Tahu was able to look at herself critically and make that change before the new story took place, I could totally get behind that, but unfortunately I also think that will never happen.)

[Loki]

Wow, I've just came to this topic and I don't really get some people. While I agree with all of you when it comes to the mono-gender tribes problem, the changing of Toa Mata's gender is just a silly idea to me. Yeah, let's make the whole team female except Gali. What's so good about making Tahu or Onua a female? It's just as great idea as making, I don't know, let's say, Optimus Prime or Darth Vader a woman. They're both iconic characters for their series, and they shouldn't be changed that much. The design change is ok, the gender change - not really. Gender-benders are cool in non-serious fan series, but not in the official ones. Seriously, there are some changes that shouldn't be made, ever. You can as well make something like this: "The Great Spirit Maku Ta, betrayed by his brother, Matanui". Yeah, only their names are swapped, but does it seem right to you? I wouldn't mind the change of some of the Matorans' gender that much, but changing the gender of the main characters? No, just no. Of course, new female characters are always welcomed, especially middle-set female villains (I would love to see that). But as I said, there are some changes that shouldn't be made, ever.

The main problem for me is not how many female characters there is, but how they look. Really, the only feminine-looking Bionicle set ever was Roodaka, and still she had too wide shoulders in my opinion. Gali Mata/Nuva and Nokama Metru/Hordika had a pretty neutral look when it comes to gender, so they could be females as well as males (though I don't think that's a good thing either, because it still would make a little confusion). But after 2005 we got all those manly women, like Hahli Inika with a moustache or Gali Mistika with a huge chin. Hahli Mahri was acceptable, but still had too wide shoulders. Gorast also didn't look like a female, at all. The only other feminine-looking set Kiina, but then she had those long monkey arms and ugly shoulders. And with Hero Factory it didn't changed that much, I saw a lot of kids got confused when they found out that Breez is a female. And some of her versions had the same problem as Hahli Inika or Gali Mistika - they just looked manly (I'm looking at you, 2011 Breez).

And I don't want to say that all female characters should have a huge bewbs or butts now, but let's just make them a little more slim, maybe a little shorter, give them narrow shoulders and maybe a torso armor that would resemble female body a little more (I think the 2014 Chima Ultrabuilds torso piece would work perfectly, though I don't know if it's not too big). And please, no mask/helmets with moustache or gigantic chins.

Oh and, even if the new Bionicle line won't fix the mono-gender tribes problem, you can always make your own alternative universe

Marvel just did it with Thor, I don't see how that's unprofessional or how it would take away from the character or the series if Lego decided to do the same with some of their own characters, realizing it was a bad idea to make only one female character in the initial main cast.

And sets don't... need to look like what you describe... ? Women have all kinds of body types and aren't all slim, short and with narrow shoulders. :/

Edited July 18, 2014 by Loki

[Voxovan]

Marvel just did it with Thor, I don't see how that's unprofessional or how it would take away from the character or the series if Lego decided to do the same with some of their own characters, realizing it was a bad idea to make only one female character in the initial main cast.

If I recall correctly, Thor and "female Thor" (Tarene) are different characters. And if there's any other female Thor, she's probably in one of the Marvel alternate universes, not in the main one (correct me if I'm wrong). If Tahu was a woman in one of the alternate Bionicle universes, I'd be okay with that. But if that happened in the main one - no, just no.

Women have all kinds of body types and aren't all slim, short and with narrow shoulders. :/

I know that all women don't have the same body type, duh. But if they looked like how I described them, or similar to it, it would be the easiest way for the kids to know that the characters actually IS a female, because that's the most common "female look". Sure they can have different body types, but if you weren't familiar with Bionicle and looked at Hahli Inika, would you think that she's a woman? I don't think so.

[the last chronicler]

Although if it happened that Lego would change some of the Mata genders I probably wouldn't be bothered, but if I had to make I choice I'm simply too selfish and attached to the original six to want any of them changed. You see, when creating my own adventures as a kid I'd always have the story start within the canon realm and circle back such that it could fit within the real continuity (Maybe I should write for Tv?) Anyways I'm hoping I can think of this reboot more as "the untold stories" or "the untold details" of the Toa Mata then a complete rewrite. Almost as if it could be stuck right into the current Biosector01 database. For that reason I want the Mata to stay the same.

If I had to choose a Mata to change gender, while some have suggested Pohatu because of his design, I think he is too brotherly "tough guy"-ish, I would either change Lewa (although he may end up too similar to Gali) or Kopaka (He has this certain loner/Clint Eastwood thing going that would be great if transferred over to a female character.) If Earth was closer to "Mother Earth" in theme Onua could have worked, but I think the contrast between his wise nature and tough exterior plays better with a male, and again that wise and diplomatic nature is already portrayed in a female through Gali.

And sets don't... need to look like what you describe... ? Women have all kinds of body types and aren't all slim, short and with narrow shoulders. :/

PS: the problem with Bionicle isn't female body stereotypes, but male ones. The Inika build has that big chest, wide-shoulder, bodybuilder/superhero unrealistic masculine look (which appears in Hero Factory as well) that made Gali Mistika and Hahli Inika unbelievable. In fact, Gali, Nokama Metru, and Kiina's designs seem pretty reasonably non-stereotypical in contrast, all of them can work as designs for both genders.

Edited July 18, 2014 by the last chronicler

[JoseManuel]

OMG this idea is SO stupid. We don't need more women in Toa Mata \(._. )/ Gender equality isn't necessary in BIONICLE, c'mon people. Unless you want some Kopaka&Onua porn ;_;

Edited July 18, 2014 by JoseManuel

[Lord-Vorahk]

I don't think anyone seriously wants to change the gender of any of the Mata. Changing an unimportant side-character, though? Maybe. Or hey, here's an idea, and what I think people would go for: Adding female characters instead of gender-bending male ones.

At this point, I'm a little torn. I'd prefer a second team, if there is one, to be the Mahri. Jaller, Hahli, and Matoro are some of my favourite characters, and I still have my modified Jaller and Matoro around (Hahli broke. Stupid lime!). However, I'd also like to see a new team with more gender diversity. I don't think there should be three teams any time soon, that might be overkill, so it feels like a case of one or the other.

[Gatanui]

OMG this idea is SO stupid. We don't need more women in Toa Mata \(._. )/ Gender equality isn't necessary in BIONICLE, c'mon people. Unless you want some Kopaka&Onua porn ;_;

That comment is so offensive I can't really believe what I just read. First of all, even regardless of the Toa Mata, why isn't gender equality necessary in BIONICLE? And what on earth does porn have to do with that? It seems you are saying that the mere presence of female characters in a storyline implies there has to be some sort of sexual context, which is extremely offensive and purely sexist. Not only that, you are taking the sexual context to the extreme.

-Gata

Edited July 18, 2014 by Gatanui

[Kingslayer]

OMG this idea is SO stupid. We don't need more women in Toa Mata \(._. )/ Gender equality isn't necessary in BIONICLE, c'mon people. Unless you want some Kopaka&Onua porn ;_;

Well as a matter of fact...

But seriously, I wouldn't like ANY existing characters genders to be changed, nor do I think it will happen. I WOULD however, like to see new female characters ALTHOUGH, given the choice between more female characters and more good characters, if chose the latter. Not that they would be mutually exclusive mind.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Kingslayer

[JoseManuel]

That comment is so offensive I can't really believe what I just read. First of all, even regardless of the Toa Mata, why isn't gender equality necessary in BIONICLE? And what on earth does porn have to do with that? It seems you are saying that the mere presence of female characters in a storyline implies there has to be some sort of sexual context, which is extremely offensive and purely sexist. Not only that, you are taking the sexual context to the extreme.

-Gata

Yes. And it's true. More female Toa Mata = more porn. BIONICLE doesn't need gender equality because it's a series of bricks (mostly) for young boys. If you want see Tahu as a woman, write FanFick and leave true BIONICLE fans alone.

[Gatanui]

Yes. And it's true. More female Toa Mata = more porn. BIONICLE doesn't need gender equality because it's a series of bricks (mostly) for young boys. If you want see Tahu as a woman, write FanFick and leave true BIONICLE fans alone.

If people seriously want to spend their time writing/drawing/whatever fan porn involving Toa Mata that's their thing but you don't need more female Toa Mata to do that, nor do you need more Toa Mata to be officially female for that matter, so that's entirely irrelevant. Also, nobody is forcing you to consume said porn if it really existed. By your logic, let's ban female characters from media entirely, as obviously there will always be armies of boys/men eagerly waiting to use any female characters for their derailed sexual fantasies. If they use female BIONICLE characters for porn that's not the problem of BIONICLE but theirs. Considering BIONICLE is in fact a toy for young children as you said, that's precisely a reason it needs gender equality because toy lines exercise an educating effect on the children who play with them. It wouldn't even be necessary to have a strict 1:1-ratio, a better representation of female characters (both in numbers and in character depiction itself) would already help a big deal. The argument you have given me for BIONICLE not needing gender equality simply isn't one (though let's stick with better gender ratio as having too many female characters may be problematic for selling the toys considering they're primarily targeted at young boys who for some reason generally aren't fond of girls in the stories they follow, at least in today's Western societies). Also, with all due respect, but you don't get to tell anyone who is a true BIONICLE fan or not. Also, I don't think anyone is actually demanding Tahu be female from now on, we are only considering the possibility of having more female characters in the Toa Mata team in the case of a retelling/reboot of the story considering BIONICLE has not been precisely exemplary in the way it has dealt with gender so far.

-Gata

Edited July 18, 2014 by Gatanui

[Voxovan]

Or hey, here's an idea, and what I think people would go for: Adding female characters instead of gender-bending male ones.

That's exactly what I meant

I think we all went a little too far in this discussion. We've just put weird and confusing gender-bending, sexism and porn into a topic about a toyline :\ This is pointless. Bionicle is fine with or without more females. It's the climatic, epic story and fascinating characters what makes this series great. Adding more females isn't really necessary. Of course, new female characters are always welcome, but that's not really what Bionicle is about.

[Gatanui]

That's exactly what I meant

I think we all went a little too far in this discussion. We've just put weird and confusing gender-bending, sexism and porn into a topic about a toyline :\ This is pointless. Bionicle is fine with or without more females. It's the climatic, epic story and fascinating characters what makes this series great. Adding more females isn't really necessary. Of course, new female characters are always welcome, but that's not really what Bionicle is about.

It's not necessary per se, no, but if there is a way it can be improved, then why not? Personally I find myself able to enjoy BIONICLE even with a 1:5 female-male ratio but I totally understand the concerns and I think a better handling of female characters would by all means do BIONICLE more good than bad.

-Gata

[Voxovan]

It's not necessary per se, no, but if there is a way it can be improved, then why not? Personally I find myself able to enjoy BIONICLE even with a 1:5 female-male ratio but I totally understand the concerns and I think a better handling of female characters would by all means do BIONICLE more good than bad.

-Gata

I agree that more females would be a good thing, but I don't think Bionicle will "improve" with that. I have a feeling that this series doesn't really need an improvement, it's fine as it is. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see more female characters, and if there were women even in the other tribes, it'd be great, but IMO Bionicle will be great even with or without more females. That's why I'm against the whole gender-bending of Toa Mata, it's not really gonna change anything, only bring confusion and controversy among the fans.

Though I'm still hoping for more female (not ugly-looking) villains. Lego, please... :x

Edited July 18, 2014 by Voxovan

[Gatanui]

I agree that more females would be a good thing, but I don't think Bionicle will "improve" with that. I have a feeling that this series doesn't really need an improvement, it's fine as it is. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see more female characters, and if there were women even in the other tribes, it'd be great, but IMO Bionicle will be great even with or without more females. That's why I'm against the whole gender-bending of Toa Mata, it's not really gonna change anything, only bring confusion and controversy among the fans.

Though I'm still hoping for more female (not ugly-looking) villains. Lego, please... :x

BIONICLE won't improve by simply throwing in a bunch of female characters, no. It has to be done right. And even then it would still have its share of faults if they were carried over from the old BIONICLE to the new. Again, don't get me wrong, I enjoyed BIONICLE through it's entire run but it still had some issues, especially retrospectively. I think I actually agree with you about the Toa Mata, though. I've thought about it and I guess after the initial surprise and a short time of familiarization I'd actually be totally fine with it but new female characters would probably do the job as well as far as female representation is concerned without setting up lots of confusion and controversy, as you pointed out. I don't really see LEGO doing it. But the thought itself is quite interesting.

-Gata

Edited July 18, 2014 by Gatanui

[JoseManuel]

Well, more women in story - that's fine. But not by changing genders. And young boys definitely don't want 1:1 female:male. Also, 5 women in Toa Mata wouldn't be an improvement. People love old characters and they don't want changes.

[Gatanui]

Well, more women in story - that's fine. But not by changing genders. And young boys definitely don't want 1:1 female:male. Also, 5 women in Toa Mata wouldn't be an improvement. People love old characters and they don't want changes.

The thing is, as far as I recall nobody talked about a 1:1 ratio or 5 female Toa Mata (I think we can agree especially the latter wouldn't exactly make too much sense considering everything).

-Gata

Edited July 18, 2014 by Gatanui

[toatyger]

What if they are a new group of Toa who have just taken up the names of the legendary Toa Mata? Same genders as the origanals wouldn't be required then.

[Voxovan]

What if they are a new group of Toa who have just taken up the names of the legendary Toa Mata? Same genders as the origanals wouldn't be required then.

Then why we could cleary see original Tahu in the leaked picture?

[Gatanui]

Then why we could cleary see original Tahu in the leaked picture?

Clearly they are actually impostors who want to impersonate the Toa Mata and the actual villains of the story! :O

-Gata

[Aanchir]

Then why we could cleary see original Tahu in the leaked picture?

We see a character who looks like original Tahu, but referencing the original character design does not make it the same character. Pretty much every Link in The Legend of Zelda wears a green hat and tunic, but that doesn't make them all the same Link.

As I've pointed out before, if we had first caught a glimpse of Toa Lhikan without any name attached before we knew about the character, it'd be easy to think it was a new version of Tahu.

[Mr. Gundam]

Man, I didn't think this topic would be so separating among the fan base. For the ppl who don't want genders of their fav characters to change: BIONICLE had it the way you like for 10 years. Are you telling me if TLG decide to make a reboot for 2015 that it would be a bad thing??

I been reading all the responds/back and forth, I'm assuming I don't understand this side of hurt/angry/dissappoint y'all would be if more characters were gender swap or brand new. Also I think its a bit of a sretch that toys describe as female character would be brought less by boys. But I don't really study what gender of toys boys want to buy.

Since we are all fans of the same theme, I'm suprise some of you don't welcome the idea. I would like this generation to have boys and girls be either element. I'm fine with any of the existing characters being switch (because the previous story of Bionicle is done with). To me this is alternate universe, and the fact elements being broken down to gender only or old characters not being swap for the sake of.....what? Canon?

[Voxovan]

We see a character who looks like original Tahu, but referencing the original character design does not make it the same character. Pretty much every Link in The Legend of Zelda wears a green hat and tunic, but that doesn't make them all the same Link.

As I've pointed out before, if we had first caught a glimpse of Toa Lhikan without any name attached before we knew about the character, it'd be easy to think it was a new version of Tahu.

But Lhikan wasn't named "Tahu, Master of Fire" and wasn't surfing on the lava in the same pose as G1 Tahu on the box art

There's still possibility of him being and character, same with the rest of the team, but it seems very unlikely.

Man, I didn't think this topic would be so separating among the fan base. For the ppl who don't want genders of their fav characters to change: BIONICLE had it the way you like for 10 years. Are you telling me if TLG decide to make a reboot for 2015 that it would be a bad thing??

I been reading all the responds/back and forth, I'm assuming I don't understand this side of hurt/angry/dissappoint y'all would be if more characters were gender swap or brand new. Also I think its a bit of a sretch that toys describe as female character would be brought less by boys. But I don't really study what gender of toys boys want to buy.

Since we are all fans of the same theme, I'm suprise some of you don't welcome the idea. I would like this generation to have boys and girls be either element. I'm fine with any of the existing characters being switch (because the previous story of Bionicle is done with). To me this is alternate universe, and the fact elements being broken down to gender only or old characters not being swap for the sake of.....what? Canon?

1. We still don't know if it's a reboot, it may as well be a continuation :P

2. But what's the point of changing main characters' gender anyway? It's just weird and unecessary. Bionicle was fine without it, and it would only cause a confusion and a lot of controversy among the fans, both old and new, and I don't think that's what LEGO wants to do.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Voxovan

[Lord-Vorahk]

Making the Toa Mata become Legacy Characters might be cool. That way, even if the real ones keep the original gender, then a fan can easily make an R63 version, and it wouldn't be canon defilement.

[Loki]

If I recall correctly, Thor and "female Thor" (Tarene) are different characters. And if there's any other female Thor, she's probably in one of the Marvel alternate universes, not in the main one (correct me if I'm wrong). If Tahu was a woman in one of the alternate Bionicle universes, I'd be okay with that. But if that happened in the main one - no, just no.

Kinda tired atm, so sorry ahead of time if I butcher the English language (4AM is not a bed time, folks)

Anyway, while I'm not 100% up to date on the specifics surrounding the new Thor (I don't really read comics and stuff, I just know what some articles bothered to cover), I still have a bit of a hard time seeing it as a completely unrelated instance. Like, if this is a true reboot... swapping character genders wouldn't drastically alter the old story, or need an over-complicated and likely poorly done explanation as to why: it's a new world, more or less, with different problems (and the heroes could be of varied genders despite having the same names of their predecessors). Personally, I would prefer it if TLG had more new characters introduced who were female -- I don't see it as too positive if they swap the genders of only previous characters, making all the new faces males.

I know that all women don't have the same body type, duh. But if they looked like how I described them, or similar to it, it would be the easiest way for the kids to know that the characters actually IS a female, because that's the most common "female look". Sure they can have different body types, but if you weren't familiar with Bionicle and looked at Hahli Inika, would you think that she's a woman? I don't think so.

I really wouldn't want Lego pulling out more Roodaka's; I really couldn't stand the rahkshi head breasts, or the high heels (I also had a hard time standing her as a character, but that's a different critique). Keeping the character's form in theme with the other forms, aesthetically in the sets, doesn't really pose as much an issue from what I see? I mean, I bought Lewa in 2001 (okay, my parents bought Lewa in 2001) and I thought Lewa was female for the longest time (and Pohatu and Tahu, admittedly one of the Mata I thought male was Gali).

I'm not even touching the posts with the pornography mentions. :/

Edited July 18, 2014 by Loki