Females in Bionicle

[Voxovan]

It already is not the same BIONICLE if we get a reboot. I don't think you are grasping that. Also, there are several alternate universe Marvel characters with different genders- female Nughtcrawler exists in one continuity, Antonia Stark, the Ultimatr version of Vision is female, etc. not to mention your other examples are not accurate entirely either. Batman is Thomas Wayne in one continuity, Gwen Stacy is Spider-Woman instead of Peter being Spider-Man in one universe, etc.

You sure ate trying really hard to discredit the idea of a female Tahu, even though several franchises have done similar things. Kind of weird, honestly.

The whole idea of a female Tahu is kind of weird, honestly.

@Your Marvel examples: Yes, Gwen Stacy is a Spider-Woman, not Spider-Man. As the last chronicler said, you can't make Batman a woman without changing his name to Batwoman. Antonia Stark - still, a different name. I'm not really familiar with female versions of Nightcrawler and Vision, so I won't touch them. Besides, they are females in one of the alternate universes, while both Marvel and DC have thousands of alternate universes, and most of their iconic characters in those universes remain the same. Bionicle had some alternate dimensions, sure, but in that case they were all part of one canon, one universe. It will be LEGO's first attempt to creating new rebooted Bionicle universe, and starting with such changes wouldn't do them any good.

And come on, why would you even want that kind of change? It is not a good idea. It is not a good way to fix the male:female ratio in Bionicle. The fact that we keep arguing about this is a perfect example that it's not a good idea. If something like that happened, even more people would argue, and I'm sure that's not what LEGO wants.

[Lyichir]

While I would love for the gender ratio of Bionicle to be improved, and want the element-based gender rule to be eliminated, I don't think the Toa Mata (or characters named after them) should have their genders changed. That's not because I don't think a female Tahu or Lewa would be awesome, but rather because many of the comments here seem like they reflect how the new characters would be received. It's not just the fear that older fans might be turned off by the idea instantly, but rather, what I'm worried about is that characters whose gender changed would basically invite criticism of their gender itself (not just their character) whenever their character fell short of fans' nostalgic memories. Every time "girl Tahu" fell short of a goal, or any time "girl Lewa" showed any sign of weakness, fans with an inclination toward sexism would automatically attribute those failings to the most obvious change in the character, that being their gender (despite the original Toa Mata being riddled with similar character flaws). And of course any growing pains a reboot could potentially have (such as weaker storytelling as the new theme found its feet) would result in fans looking to place the blame somewhere, and a change as progressive as changing characters' genders would be an easy target, even if it wasn't relevant to the problems being discussed.

The obvious comeback to this is that older fans have never been the determining factor for a theme's success. But I'd argue that in todays era of social media, they matter more, ESPECIALLY upon a theme's launch. Take Hero Factory for example. A lot of the criticism of the theme (both fair and unfair) came the early reactions of Bionicle fans who were bitter about the theme's cancellation, and it spread from there and went on to define a great deal of the narrative pervading the organized fan community for the theme's entire lifespan. And while sites like BZPower have managed to beat down the least valid of those common arguments on the site itself (such as the common "how do they have personalities if they're just robots" argument), we now live in an era where fans don't flock to organized communities so much as they do to nebulous ones like Twitter or Tumblr, where anyone can post whatever they wish and have it visible to everyone who searches the tag, making it much, much harder to control the narrative. I used to search for good Bionicle art on DeviantArt, for example, but a Hero Factory fan who does the same is more likely to find image macros bashing the theme than they are to find art of their favorite characters. Lego would do well to try to avoid letting the same thing happen to a new Bionicle.

For that reason I think Lego would be wise to try to appeal to nostalgia, at least in this first wave, which judging by the set names is what they seem to be doing. That means changing as little as possible about the original Toa, including changes like gender. By doing so they'd be able to better keep the fan narrative positive and keep the focus on things like the improved sets, rather than opening with a story change that could potentially be divisive, and create negative memes that spread to the target audience.. That's why I'm hoping for the gender ratio to improve more on a conceptual level at first—doing away with things the rule that only Ga-Matoran are female—so that future characters (and hopefully, sets) have the chance to do better than one in six.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Lyichir

[Aanchir]

While I would love for the gender ratio of Bionicle to be improved, and want the element-based gender rule to be eliminated, I don't think the Toa Mata (or characters named after them) should have their genders changed. That's not because I don't think a female Tahu or Lewa would be awesome, but rather because many of the comments here seem like they reflect how the new characters would be received. It's not just the fear that older fans might be turned off by the idea instantly, but rather, what I'm worried about is that characters whose gender changed would basically invite criticism of their gender itself (not just their character) whenever their character fell short of fans' nostalgic memories. Every time "girl Tahu" fell short of a goal, or any time "girl Lewa" showed any sign of weakness, fans with an inclination toward sexism would automatically attribute those failings to the most obvious change in the character, that being their gender (despite the original Toa Mata being riddled with similar character flaws). And of course any growing pains a reboot could potentially have (such as weaker storytelling as the new theme found its feet) would result in fans looking to place the blame somewhere, and a change as progressive as changing characters' genders would be an easy target, even if it wasn't relevant to the problems being discussed.

The obvious comeback to this is that older fans have never been the determining factor for a theme's success. But I'd argue that in todays era of social media, they matter more, ESPECIALLY upon a theme's launch. Take Hero Factory for example. A lot of the criticism of the theme (both fair and unfair) came the early reactions of Bionicle fans who were bitter about the theme's cancellation, and it spread from there and went on to define a great deal of the narrative pervading the organized fan community for the theme's entire lifespan. And while sites like BZPower have managed to beat down the least valid of those common arguments on the site itself (such as the common "how do they have personalities if they're just robots" argument), we now live in an era where fans don't flock to organized communities so much as they do to nebulous ones like Twitter or Tumblr, where anyone can post whatever they wish and have it visible to everyone who searches the tag, making it much, much harder to control the narrative. I used to search for good Bionicle art on DeviantArt, for example, but a Hero Factory fan who does the same is more likely to find image macros bashing the theme than they are to find art of their favorite characters. Lego would do well to try to avoid letting the same thing happen to a new Bionicle.

For that reason I think Lego would be wise to try to appeal to nostalgia, at least in this first wave, which judging by the set names is what they seem to be doing. That means changing as little as possible about the original Toa, including changes like gender. By doing so they'd be able to better keep the fan narrative positive and keep the focus on things like the improved sets, rather than opening with a story change that could potentially be divisive, and create negative memes that spread to the target audience.. That's why I'm hoping for the gender ratio to improve more on a conceptual level at first—doing away with things the rule that only Ga-Matoran are female—so that future characters (and hopefully, sets) have the chance to do better than one in six.

I can't help but disagree wholeheartedly with this comment. I can tell you are a lot more skeptical about the maturity of the BIONICLE fan community than I am. Personally, I think any controversy over something as basic as gender is likely to blow over fairly quickly. You bring up the controversy about Hero Factory, but bear in mind that the Hero Factory theme has managed to last four and a half years in spite of any online bickering that may have ensued. And something as basic as creating new Toa with different genders but classic names is hardly going to be anywhere near as controversial as cancelling an entire theme.

It also seems to me like you perhaps haven't searched Hero Factory on deviantART in a long time, because the amount of bickering about it there is much less than it was back in the day. Certainly fans aren't bitterly making immature image macros bashing it or any of the other idiotic stuff they used to do back in the day.

Furthermore, the fact that there has been so much discussion of this possibility in the first place should tell you that a lot of older fans are open to this idea. They would have just as much opportunity to define the narrative as fans who are enraged by the change. It's true that moderated discussion on forums has been giving way to discussion on social media... but at the same time, from what I can tell, social media seems to be every bit as open to the possibility of improved gender ratios as the major forums are. It's no coincidence that every time this conversation comes up people compare it to discussions taking place on Tumblr.

Avoiding controversy has its merits, but it just seems stupid to me to consider this a controversy worth avoiding. The reveal of Mata Nui's true form was controversial, but that didn't kill the theme. Neither did the enormous controversy that Hero Factory inherited the minute it was first revealed. I think if the LEGO Group keeps the existing genders, it will be for the same reason gender ratios have always been so pitiful: because they're afraid boys won't want to buy sets of female characters. NOT because they think changing things as basic as gender would be "too controversial"

[Loki]

The whole idea of a female Tahu is kind of weird, honestly.

@Your Marvel examples: Yes, Gwen Stacy is a Spider-Woman, not Spider-Man. As the last chronicler said, you can't make Batman a woman without changing his name to Batwoman. Antonia Stark - still, a different name. I'm not really familiar with female versions of Nightcrawler and Vision, so I won't touch them. Besides, they are females in one of the alternate universes, while both Marvel and DC have thousands of alternate universes, and most of their iconic characters in those universes remain the same. Bionicle had some alternate dimensions, sure, but in that case they were all part of one canon, one universe. It will be LEGO's first attempt to creating new rebooted Bionicle universe, and starting with such changes wouldn't do them any good.

And come on, why would you even want that kind of change? It is not a good idea. It is not a good way to fix the male:female ratio in Bionicle. The fact that we keep arguing about this is a perfect example that it's not a good idea. If something like that happened, even more people would argue, and I'm sure that's not what LEGO wants.

Those Alternate Universes are still an alternate universe wherein a change to a primary character's gender occurred, while making that character congruent to the former male counterpart in terms of who they are to the new story. If this Bionicle is a complete reboot, it is essentially an Alternate Universe wherein characters will have different designs, will be written differently to some extent, and like Marvel, Lego can choose to alter the gender of some of the previous male characters to appeal to their female fanbase, as well. The change doesn't ruin the character, who they are, what they represent or even what they will do: it gives more characters an identifying quality for potential female fans ("If Tahu can be a strong, female leader than so can I" for example). IMO, it'd do Lego good insofar as they might be making some characters that can inspire young girls, just as male characters in media often inspire young boys -- and that is important.

Also debating about something doesn't mean you're immediately correct. I could say the same thing if I said "By arguing about how this would be a bad idea, clearly means it's a good idea since people hold a different opinion to your own."

[Voxovan]

Those Alternate Universes are still an alternate universe wherein a change to a primary character's gender occurred, while making that character congruent to the former male counterpart in terms of who they are to the new story. If this Bionicle is a complete reboot, it is essentially an Alternate Universe wherein characters will have different designs, will be written differently to some extent, and like Marvel, Lego can choose to alter the gender of some of the previous male characters to appeal to their female fanbase, as well. The change doesn't ruin the character, who they are, what they represent or even what they will do: it gives more characters an identifying quality for potential female fans ("If Tahu can be a strong, female leader than so can I" for example). IMO, it'd do Lego good insofar as they might be making some characters that can inspire young girls, just as male characters in media often inspire young boys -- and that is important.

Also debating about something doesn't mean you're immediately correct. I could say the same thing if I said "By arguing about how this would be a bad idea, clearly means it's a good idea since people hold a different opinion to your own."

But Bionicle is not intended to inspire young girls <&v

Also I have no idea what your last sentence is about and what it has to do with my post :l

Edited July 19, 2014 by Voxovan

[Bfahome]

But Bionicle is not intended to inspire young girls <&v

That doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't.

Also I have no idea what your last sentence is about and what it has to do with my post :l

You said that this whole argument proves that the gender ratio shouldn't be changed, which doesn't make sense.

[Voxovan]

You said that this whole argument proves that the gender ratio shouldn't be changed, which doesn't make sense.

No. I said that the whole argument proves that changing the gender of classic caracters (not changing the gender ratio in Bionicle) is controversial.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Voxovan

[Bfahome]

No. I said that the whole argument proves that changing the gender of classic caracters (not changing the gender ratio in Bionicle) is controversial.

Gender ratio, main characters' gender, close enough. The "main characters" of BIONICLE are most of what we see anyway. Saying that half the beings in the universe are female and half are male and then having a 5:1 male-to-female ratio in the main characters doesn't make for better representation.

You didn't just say it was controversial, you said "The fact that we keep arguing about this is a perfect example that it's not a good idea," and that's not true at all.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Bfahome

[Voxovan]

Gender ratio, main characters' gender, close enough. The "main characters" of BIONICLE are most of what we see anyway. Saying that half the beings in the universe are female and half are male and then having a 5:1 male-to-female ratio in the main characters doesn't make for better representation.

You didn't just say it was controversial, you said "The fact that we keep arguing about this is a perfect example that it's not a good idea," and that's not true at all.

Oh well, I really said that :x It was more like this whole discussion is a proof that this idea is controversial which makes it not good, but also not bad at the same time. And that is true - what is good about something that makes other people argue with each other?

And excuse me, are you talking about the Bionicle universe? Well then, nobody ever said that half of the population is male and the other is female, it was clearly stated that there's more males in Bionicle universe. If you were talking about our universe, then sorry, but Bionicle universe wasn't made to represent our universe. It was made as a background for the sets. Sets marketed towards boys.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Voxovan

[Bfahome]

And excuse me, are you talking about the Bionicle universe? Well then, nobody never said that half of the population is male and the other is female, it was clearly stated that there's more males in Bionicle universe. If you were talking about our universe, then sorry, but Bionicle wasn't made to represent our universe.

I'm talking about a hypothetical rebooted universe with a more even ratio, and how it would still be important to have that at least somewhat reflected in the main characters.

If part of the reboot was to have a better ratio, it wouldn't seem very genuine if it was just an aside or footnote. A mostly- or all-male team isn't going to suddenly be forgiven because the writers add in a bit about how there are actually an equal number of females too. That's just talk.

If the purpose is to have better representation, then it needs to be in the primary medium as well. I don't think it would be as controversial as you do, because it's been over ten years since the Toa Mata were introduced, and I doubt there are so many people attached to their original forms that it would cause such an uproar as to be a problem for the company.

[Aanchir]

Gender ratio, main characters' gender, close enough. The "main characters" of BIONICLE are most of what we see anyway. Saying that half the beings in the universe are female and half are male and then having a 5:1 male-to-female ratio in the main characters doesn't make for better representation.

No, but for a creative toy like LEGO I think it'd still be a major improvement, ESPECIALLY if the characters weren't grouped by gender into specific elements and color schemes.

Again I bring up My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, another series I love. It has exactly one male main character — Spike the Dragon. The rest of its main characters are female. This is not a bad thing, especially since well-written, female-dominated series are fairly rare in modern-day media. But I think it is an example of a series where equal gender ratios would be undesirable. A lot of the show's appeal comes from the distinctly feminine perspective it regularly draws from. It is unapologetically a girl-oriented series — and yet, it has become popular with boys as well, because the stories and lessons are just that enjoyable.

I don't necessarily think BIONICLE should abandon its very gendered marketing strategy either. However, it also should take care not to alienate its periphery demographic. I feel like focusing primarily on male main characters is tolerable — not exceptional, not groundbreaking, not an improvement to the media landscape as a whole, but tolerable. However, setting up a 1:5 gender ratio throughout the whole Matoran race, and reserving just a small handful of elements and color schemes for all its female fans, is a huge creative limitation for fans, especially for whatever female fans might be drawn to the series in spite of its boy-focused marketing. Not only would a more realistic gender ratio and less rigid rules about gender permit more fan characters to exist without contradicting the official storyline, but it would also allow the story to feature a greater variety of female secondary characters.

Personally, I think the theme should at least work towards a 1:2 ratio among its main characters: one female character to every two male characters. If the Hageman brothers are to be believed, around 30% of Ninjago's fanbase is female. I see no reason why BIONICLE can't at least meet that benchmark. And in that case, it would be ideal for the theme to try and reflect that audience by having at least one third of all characters be female.

I see no reason why boys could not tolerate a second woman in a six-person team. It worked for Power Rangers, and that franchise is every bit as merchandise-driven as BIONICLE. Adding a second female character might even increase the size of the theme's female audience, which might allow the LEGO Group to push that boundary even further without a decrease in sales. But in the short term, having a team that's 30% female would be a good goal to start out with.

[MakutaDreadscythe]

Right then, time for my input.

I personally would like more female characters. Characters like Samus and Lara Croft are strong personalities and besides being generally cool can be interesting. Lariska is one such example, a lot of ideas about what she looks like and how she acts is left up to imagination, but that can work.

I am however opposed to genderbending the mata team should they return, not because I’m sexist (cos you know, I’m not) but because it doesn’t add anything of value. Changing something for the sake of change is silly.

[Dorek]

But it wouldn't be "changing it for the sake of change", it would be changing it so that going forward there is more equal gender representation (assuming they are new/rebooted characters).

[MakutaDreadscythe]

Well for new characters yes. I dunno. The idea of genderbending would be weird and feel like a forced change. Perhaps utilise some of the other elements or make more characters in the respective tribes?

Edited July 19, 2014 by MakutaDreadscythe

[Bfahome]

No, but for a creative toy like LEGO I think it'd still be a major improvement, ESPECIALLY if the characters weren't grouped by gender into specific elements and color schemes.

That's a good point, but even so I think the main characters/sets should have a part in establishing that as the case.

[adotnamedstud]

I think a debate on gender ratios is great and all, but let's have LEGO decide that... "Don't bite the hand that feeds you". (Not trying to be a mini-mod. I quite enjoy this topic yet I'm kind of concerned...)

[Timeline15]

It baffles me that so many peoples' first answer to "we need more female characters" is " let's genderbend existing ones" rather than "lets make new female characters". The latter is much less daft, and would also potentially get us another Toa team. I for one, don't want it to be only the Mata for the next however many years, as was the problem with HF. Changing the gender of an existing character IS change for the sake of change, because instead of trying to create a genuinely interesting female character. you're taking a character that already has all their traits defined, and just having them be a girl for the sake of some perceived equality.

Would Tahu being a girl change up the dynamic at all? No, because we already know Tahu's character. (not to mention that changing the way the character behaves simply because of them being a different gender would be quite sexist). All it would do is change the ratio, which is all some people seem to care about unfortunately.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Timeline15

[Aanchir]

It baffles me that so many peoples' first answer to "we need more female characters" is " let's genderbend existing ones" rather than "lets make new female characters". The latter is much less daft, and would also potentially get us another Toa team. I for one, don't want it to be only the Mata for the next however many years, as was the problem with HF. Changing the gender of an existing character IS change for the sake of change, because instead of trying to create a genuinely interesting female character. you're taking a character that already has all their traits defined, and just having them be a girl for the sake of some perceived equality.

Would Tahu being a girl change up the dynamic at all? No, because we already know Tahu's character. (not to mention that changing the way the character behaves simply because of them being a different gender would be quite sexist). All it would do is change the ratio, which is all some people seem to care about unfortunately.

Personally, I prefer the idea of sticking with a single team for several years. I think sticking with a consistent team was one of the smartest decisions Hero Factory made, even though a team of nine turned out to be maybe a bit too large. But you DO make a good point of how changing characters' genders would not really affect the team dynamic unless you changed the characters' personalities as well. So if these are the same Toa Mata as in the previous BIONICLE storyline, changing their genders is probably not a good idea.

On the other hand, if these are new characters who are just named after the Toa Mata, then it would not be nearly so problematic to change their personalities or their team dynamic up a bit. The original Toa Mata were not especially complex characters. None of them had very unique goals as individuals. I think some more recent LEGO themes have done a better job with that. In LEGO Ninjago, for instance, there was a whole subplot about Zane trying to discover where he came from. So starting fresh with a new team of Toa might help the theme get off to a better start, not just in terms of gender but also in terms of characterization in general.

[Lord-Vorahk]

Personally, I prefer the idea of sticking with a single team for several years. I think sticking with a consistent team was one of the smartest decisions Hero Factory made, even though a team of nine turned out to be maybe a bit too large. But you DO make a good point of how changing characters' genders would not really affect the team dynamic unless you changed the characters' personalities as well. So if these are the same Toa Mata as in the previous BIONICLE storyline, changing their genders is probably not a good idea.

On the other hand, if these are new characters who are just named after the Toa Mata, then it would not be nearly so problematic to change their personalities or their team dynamic up a bit. The original Toa Mata were not especially complex characters. None of them had very unique goals as individuals. I think some more recent LEGO themes have done a better job with that. In LEGO Ninjago, for instance, there was a whole subplot about Zane trying to discover where he came from. So starting fresh with a new team of Toa might help the theme get off to a better start, not just in terms of gender but also in terms of characterization in general.

The whole lack of individual goals came more from the "One destiny" part of their tagline than any specific fault. I think the closest we had was Kopaka trying to get the job done with as little interaction with Tahu as possible.

[MakutaDreadscythe]

It baffles me that so many peoples' first answer to "we need more female characters" is " let's genderbend existing ones" rather than "lets make new female characters". The latter is much less daft, and would also potentially get us another Toa team. I for one, don't want it to be only the Mata for the next however many years, as was the problem with HF. Changing the gender of an existing character IS change for the sake of change, because instead of trying to create a genuinely interesting female character. you're taking a character that already has all their traits defined, and just having them be a girl for the sake of some perceived equality.

Would Tahu being a girl change up the dynamic at all? No, because we already know Tahu's character. (not to mention that changing the way the character behaves simply because of them being a different gender would be quite sexist). All it would do is change the ratio, which is all some people seem to care about unfortunately.

That's kinda what I tried to imply, though you've clearly done a better job of explaining it. The Mata team is iconic and it wouldn't do anything. It's be like turning Mario into a chick or Samus into a guy. Just odd.

[Dorek]

But even if they are the "same" characters just in a different context (alternate universe, reboot, whatever) why shouldn't they be different? I'm sure some people would just like the exact same thing we had before for another ten years, but I'd love to see some fresh takes on characters, and a gender swap certainly could accomplish that.

[Aanchir]

The whole lack of individual goals came more from the "One destiny" part of their tagline than any specific fault. I think the closest we had was Kopaka trying to get the job done with as little interaction with Tahu as possible.

Well, that's another one of my pet peeves. Besides Gali and Pohatu, most of the Toa Mata were utterly convinced that they worked better alone, despite pretty much every single one of their experiences telling them that was not the case. It wouldn't bother me if they had clear personal reasons for getting into arguments. I get it, friends and teammates fight sometimes. I don't have a problem with that. But with the Toa Mata it seems like they were ALWAYS ready to split up at a moment's notice. And then they would have to learn the same lessons about teamwork over and over again.

If BIONICLE came back, I'd hope for more complex and consistent character development than what a lot of the early years of BIONICLE offered. Avatar: The Last Airbender is a great example of how you can have a serious story but still teach lessons that aren't so simplistic or repetitive.

[Lord-Vorahk]

Well, that's another one of my pet peeves. Besides Gali and Pohatu, most of the Toa Mata were utterly convinced that they worked better alone, despite pretty much every single one of their experiences telling them that was not the case. It wouldn't bother me if they had clear personal reasons for getting into arguments. I get it, friends and teammates fight sometimes. I don't have a problem with that. But with the Toa Mata it seems like they were ALWAYS ready to split up at a moment's notice. And then they would have to learn the same lessons about teamwork over and over again.

If BIONICLE came back, I'd hope for more complex and consistent character development than what a lot of the early years of BIONICLE offered. Avatar: The Last Airbender is a great example of how you can have a serious story but still teach lessons that aren't so simplistic or repetitive.

I can remember Tahu wanting to use two-man teams to cover more ground in the first book, as opposed to going alone. And I kinda understood the split after they became the Nuva, they thought that they were powerful enough to face everything alone. But the rest of the time, yeah, Gali and Pohatu seemed to the only ones who learned anything prior to 08.

[MakutaDreadscythe]

But even if they are the "same" characters just in a different context (alternate universe, reboot, whatever) why shouldn't they be different? I'm sure some people would just like the exact same thing we had before for another ten years, but I'd love to see some fresh takes on characters, and a gender swap certainly could accomplish that.

I think you misunderstand. If it doesn't need changing don't change it. If Ninjago got a reboot and say Cole was made a girl it would be a bit odd. I think genderswapping existing characters would be detrimental and the idea that it singlehandedly makes for a fresh take is shallow in my opinion. Giving them actual character on the other hand is beneficial. I would like to see others, and I would totally be down with a female Toa for more elements, as well as male Toa for elements previously established to be female-only.

[Dorek]

But who's to say what "needs" changing and what doesn't? A brand new universe shouldn't play by the same rules as the old one, otherwise there isn't much of a point in retooling anything in the first place.

Obviously good story, writing, character development, etc. are all really important, but a change in gender would not negatively impact any of those things, and in fact open up new avenues for people who were perhaps turned off by the previous incarnation.