Female minifigures - do we need the hourglass torso and make up?

[AndyC]

Give me a break... Some people are just looking for something to moan about.

It's not as if these torso's are a new thing. This pirate torso with a corset is from the Black Seas Barracuda. That was 1989...

And if you actually look at that torso design, it's hardly a "size zero", there's still a relatively wide waistline.

[autorazr]

Actually, the bodies LEGO produces look nothing like anybody - they're an abstraction of the human form. The head is grotesquely huge in relation to the trapezoid shaped body and it has monstrously thick legs!

Sexualizing? No. It is a graphic representation of the female form. No one, well, maybe you, is going to confuse a LEGO fig with a Barbie doll when it comes to sexualization of the female form.

yes, I have an opinion that differs from yours, so naturally, you can make assumptions about my character. LOL, grow up baby boy, let me put the words in my own mouth. Also, thanks for the lesson in geometry, my eyes dont actually work, so I couldnt tell just how abstracted the minifigs were, I assumed they were in scale to real humans. One question for you though flailx, how do you deal with the loneliness?

Give me a break... Some people are just looking for something to moan about.

It's not as if these torso's are a new thing. This pirate torso with a corset is from the Black Seas Barracuda. That was 1989...

This isnt the problem, the problem is when it is gratuitous. This is a woman in a corset, it would need to reveal some form of female shape/exposed breasts to convey that. What is unnecessary is hip and breast printing on a piece like this

Theres no reason she cant use the regular "male" police body. I have this torso and when I used it to make a custom "male" character, all anybody could see was his "womanly hips." Thats a problem, clearly that is the detail that people see, and it is an unnecessary detail, as this minifig would be easily ID'ed as a woman based on her fuller lips and longer eyelashes (which is less offensive to me, as for the most part all women have fuller lips and longer eyelashes than men)

It would seem most people aren't getting what I'm trying to say. This isnt a realism issue, its not a feminist issue, it is simply this, the curves are gratuitous, as are the male muscles. No matter what, the shape of these things is square, why are we trying to kid ourselves with printed on curves? Its like drawing a circle on a box and saying its a basketball. I mean, just look at it, they printed the negative space, wtf?

Edited July 16, 2014 by autorazr

[Wardancer]

"The shape of her helmet reflects her continued enslavement to the male patriarchy!"

Also the fact that she is forced to carry a spear, the phallic symbol of male oppression (and colonialism in general, which is of course male as well), and even smiles about it, shows how severely she has already internalized stereotypical gender roles and attributes. Poor self-alienated being.

[williejm]

It would seem most people aren't getting what I'm trying to say.

Nah, it's that people on internet message boards *love* to be contrary & condescending whenever possible.

For what it's worth I pretty much totally agree with your take on this, it's the gratuitousness that annoying, and it's on torsos not faces that it's an issue.

Where I would take issue is that women have better eyelashes than men. ;)

[legoman19892]

If all we are talking about is torso ptinting, why were heads even meantioned?

[williejm]

If all we are talking about is torso ptinting, why were heads even meantioned?

Eh? The original link talks about both. My opinion may not be the same as the article that I didn't author...

[obsidianheart]

I keep reading this thread and waiting for the punchline, but now I think it might not be a joke. Is this an actual disagreement over if LEGO should print female features and curves on heads and torsos? After decades of being lambasted for not representing women enough? If you don't like curved prints, don't use 'em in your customs. If you do like curved prints, use 'em in your MOCs. If you want your women to not be skinny, put a regular torso on 'em.

LEGO can't please everyone, that much is apparent!

[ReplicaProfile]

The best thing about LEGO is that it is modifiable. If you don't like their designs for minifigs simply create your own...

[G_phy]

Smart！

[autorazr]

Where I would take issue is that women have better eyelashes than men. ;)

I mean, I wasnt gonna say it before, but I have long beautiful manly eyelashes to which no woman can compare. Thank you wiliejm, its comforting to know someone else gets it.

I keep reading this thread and waiting for the punchline, but now I think it might not be a joke. Is this an actual disagreement over if LEGO should print female features and curves on heads and torsos? After decades of being lambasted for not representing women enough? If you don't like curved prints, don't use 'em in your customs. If you do like curved prints, use 'em in your MOCs. If you want your women to not be skinny, put a regular torso on 'em.

LEGO can't please everyone, that much is apparent!

I dont want to argue per se, the qustion was posed and I stated my honest opinion. I believe most lego torsos in production are unisex, that is how I like to play with them, I swap everything, nothing stays as it was intended. I create many more woman characters than what lego includes, using bodies that lack printed on curves. Now the ones that do have printed on curves pose a problem for me becuase they lock me into using that torso on a character that is exclusively female and fit, whereas if there were no curves, just squareness, it could be a male body or a woman's body of a different physicality or a fit woman's body, its just allows more possibilities for making custom characters. I wanted to use the Zoo lady torso to make a lego Jack Hanna, but Jack Hanna looks pretty silly with boobs, the zoo lady would still look like a lady without them. I dont think little girls will be writing letters to lego asking why the girl legos dont have perfectly formed round perky breasts.

Edited July 17, 2014 by autorazr

[RTZX9R]

If you don't like what TLG produces, stop whining about it online and go invest in your own injection molding tools, injection molding machines, and staff and make your own. Plenty others have done it and sell plenty of product. Are you going to want new leg assemblies as well, which have built in high heels / pumps next?

[autorazr]

If you don't like what TLG produces, stop whining about it online and go invest in your own injection molding tools, injection molding machines, and staff and make your own. Plenty others have done it and sell plenty of product. Are you going to want new leg assemblies as well, which have built in high heels / pumps next?

I'm not sure who you are addressing, internet quabble rules have determined that those like myself who oppose the printing (for the most part) are the ones with sticks up our butts (and therefore the ones who don't like what TLG produces, though I've never once said that). Lets get something clear though, I havent seen anyone "whining" here, this is a discussion. Some people are attempting to condescend, but I see no whiners. From your closing statement, I guess you oppose the printed on curves? Idk man, you seem to have just popped in to tell us we're all whiners and to then give up on lego and make our own toys, idk what that means.

I think Ive made my opinion clear, I've supported it with examples, and at least one person gets what I've been saying, so I'm bowing out. This discussion is about to devolve into name calling and such and I dont wanna be around for that.

[Dorayaki]

Just regarding to the main idea of playing LEGO, the main reason why makeups and waistlines aren't welcome should be that this restricts our choices of custimzation of oridinary minifigures, not because it has something to do with anti-sexism. We don't really have to erase all makeup eyelashes---- it's just one of things that exist in our real world and some women do need to live with those things. But still, I do hope that more normal sets could come with ladies with normal body shape (or even fat, even though it's usually obscure for minifigures) and use neutral faces that are usually for male minifigures. Or at least introduces some female faces that don't look "pretty" or "want to be pretty"

The combination of the RI set was okay, but yeah, maybe the "diversity" is not good enough. I don't think it should be a topic under sexism. Make it simple, if you're not a FOL, those criticisms are probably not "pratical" enough for TLC to know.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Dorayaki

[autorazr]

Well said Dorayaki, I was worried I was the only customizer who felt limited by the curves and makeup. while I'm less annoyed by the lady heads, I do remember a time I made a recreation of Toyman from Superman: The animated series. He has a doll's head mask on, so I used the Bee lady's head, which had rosy cheeks kind of like a doll. Because of the red lips and eyelashes, it was recieved as being "too feminine." Lego's message as put out in the lego movie is "make your own stuff, but also sets" seems to be at the heart of this debate. Should lego make more female minifigs by making them very specifically femme, thus limiting the potential to build your own stuff? Or should lego revert a little back to gender neutral figs, to allow for maximum customization? I know most people when they see a classic space figure, say, see a white male, thats a bummer for people like us with imaginations.

I also recognize that sometimes customizers want realism and accuracy, which may be achieved by having very specific looking heads and bodies, and that in some cases, having a curvy body better portrays your character. Personally in my own work, the body shape has never mattered, but it has been helpful to have certain lady faces that are wearing makeup, or have a beauty mark or whatever, its kind of a catch 22 in that way.

Edited July 17, 2014 by autorazr

[Faefrost]

So after 35 years Lego finally prints a female police officer. One that actually reflects what a woman looks like. One that says to young girl fans specifically "this is a job you can and do do"... And we complain because it's not generic enough for the rare breed of select few customizes to use in whatever generic unisex situation they wish? Really? That's the point we have reached in this whole looping gender representation argument? Kids should play with blank featureless unisex dolls that in no way represent anything specific? Maybe go back to the days of the original Fisher Price Little People where they were just blank wooden pegs?

Between this and the nice lady scientist complaining about the research institute set because "real scientists don't wear lipstick and make up" I think we as a community have officially jumped the shark. Please Lego employees, if you happen to read these forums STOP LISTENING TO US! WE ACTUALLY ARE INSANE!

Edited July 17, 2014 by Faefrost

[autorazr]

So after 35 years Lego finally prints a female police officer. One that actually reflects what a woman looks like. One that says to young girl fans specifically "this is a job you can and do do"... And we complain because it's not generic enough for the rare breed of select few customizes to use in whatever generic unisex situation they wish? Really? That's the point we have reached in this whole looping gender representation argument? Kids should play with blank featureless unisex dolls that in no way represent anything specific? Maybe go back to the days of the original Fisher Price Little People where they were just blank wooden pegs?

Between this and the nice lady scientist complaining about the research institute set because "real scientists don't wear lipstick and make up" I think we as a community have officially jumped the shark. Please Lego employees, if you happen to read these forums STOP LISTENING TO US! WE ACTUALLY ARE INSANE!

"one that actually reflects what a woman looks like" These things dont look human, they are square, it would look like a woman still without those features. You still want to make this about gender roles and stuff, so yes, you are crazy. This is about aesthetics, I'll say it again. If I've been playing basketball with a cardboard box, you presenting me with a cardboard box with a drawn on basketball is not going to make it any easier to shoot hoop, its still a box. Dont loop me or the others commenters in with that euro lady scientist, personally, I think a scientist can wear whatever they want. This whole thing does not have a real life component at all for me, this is a problem I have with the way a toy looks, seeing as there is a whole website dedicated to the discussion of how these toys look, I'm going to discuss.

Your attempt to downplay the customizer's role is ludicrous too. It is the message set forth in the lego movie that you should be making custom creations.

Edited July 17, 2014 by autorazr

[Peppermint_M]

Okay, so, there are not enough women minifigures but then there are minifigures made to look 'female' inasmuch a manner as achieveable in minifig form and this is sexist and wrong? I put the question about so called "hourglass" printing to four of my fellow ladies and my mother (A woman always keen to buck the trend and the reason her daughter #me# still plays with LEGO) it was thought by us, all from different backgrounds and all in different careers that:

Healthy women have their bumps and lumps and wobbly bits usually in such a manner that there is a curve in their form. AKA - Boobs and hips+bum with a (Slight or not) pinch in between. Thus the minor curve represented in the minifig printing is as much an indicator of femaleness as coloured lips and eyelashes on a minifig head.

So it is a little hard to fulfill the MOAR LADIES if THEY CAN'T LOOK LIKE THEM.

I can't ever say I am a femenist because of the straw(wo)men out there spoiling it for us.

[AndyC]

But still, I do hope that more normal sets could come with ladies with normal body shape (or even fat, even though it's usually obscure for minifigures) and use neutral faces that are usually for male minifigures.

They could, then everyone would complain there aren't enough female minifigs because they'd assume they're all guys. Lego literally cannot win this one, short of ditching minifigs entirely.

[obsidianheart]

They could, then everyone would complain there aren't enough female minifigs because they'd assume they're all guys. Lego literally cannot win this one, short of ditching minifigs entirely.

This. Forever this.

[Dorayaki]

They could, then everyone would complain there aren't enough female minifigs because they'd assume they're all guys. Lego literally cannot win this one, short of ditching minifigs entirely.

Okay. I randomly made some LDD figures that has no recognizeable female faces or hourglass waistlines. What do you guys think?

left to right: a fire fighter, a police woman, the purple ninja, a royal housekeeper chief (maybe)

I don't say that isn't a problem. Yes, the stereotypes still lay in most parents' hearts and this would affect children when they see the products. I personally think hairstyles are the most recognizeable items for consumers to determine figures' gender before those prints. Perhaps, if a generic character wants to use a neutral hairpiece (like Dastan's), she might have to use waistline or makeup to make her gender abit more obvious.

Well said Dorayaki, I was worried I was the only customizer who felt limited by the curves and makeup.

I also recognize that sometimes customizers want realism and accuracy, which may be achieved by having very specific looking heads and bodies, and that in some cases, having a curvy body better portrays your character. Personally in my own work, the body shape has never mattered, but it has been helpful to have certain lady faces that are wearing makeup, or have a beauty mark or whatever, its kind of a catch 22 in that way.

It's hard to blame TLG for not making most licensed designs generic. On the contrary, for example, should Superman and Batman get rid of their muscles in order to leave us room for customizing Supergirl or Batgirl? I'm more inclined to support the use of generic minifigure parts in most cases. The CMFs might be a source of customization, but they're often given a certain design to represent that image. But yes, it's sometimes frustrating to find that you may not use that torso just because of the waistline.

So after 35 years Lego finally prints a female police officer. One that actually reflects what a woman looks like. One that says to young girl fans specifically "this is a job you can and do do"... And we complain because it's not generic enough for the rare breed of select few customizes to use in whatever generic unisex situation they wish? Really? That's the point we have reached in this whole looping gender representation argument?

So far most female city figures who are police, fire fighters or the new thief this year, don't have recognizeable waistlines. They just share the torso prints with their pals and that's a good thing, though women in LEGO City without makeups are still pretty rare.

And the two prints are from The LEGO Movie where most female characters use makeups. The complaints seem to be pretty late.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Dorayaki

[Thetford]

Okay. I randomly made some LDD figures that has no recognizeable female faces or hourglass waistlines. What do you guys think?

left to right: a fire fighter, a police woman, the purple ninja, a royal housekeeper chief (maybe)

I don't say that isn't a problem. Yes, the stereotypes still lay in most parents' hearts and this would affect children when they see the products. I personally think hairstyles are the most recognizeable items for consumers to determine figures' gender before those prints. Perhaps, if a generic character wants to use a neutral hairpiece (like Dastan's), she might have to use waistline or makeup to make her gender abit more obvious.

To me, it looks like guy with mullet, guy and a German Mrs Doubtfire at the end. The only one that looks female has resorted to gender stereotype, and is the very inconspicuous ninja who is overloaded in pink. To me, the face is the most important in identifying gender, things like hair and waistlines are secondary. I just have to look at my own collection, I have more female faces than female hairs, simply because many female figures were in jobs that involved them wearing a hat (such as a mechanic or chef), and would otherwise have no means of identifying gender other than face, in fact, for me, a female face can often overrule an otherwise male outfit and hairdo.

My issue with Lego when it comes to gender, is the sets as a whole, as opposed to just the minifigures, the seeming segregation of "boy" sets and "girl" sets. For example, City sets have gradually become more action focussed, especially with police, with other city themes that are less action orientated getting less of an appearance, especially medical, which despite being an emergency service has only had four hospitals since Lego started (as far as I recall), meanwhile, the Friends series contains many of the everyday non action sets, is aimed at girls, with heavy uses of the colour pink. I wonder how much this is to do with the shopping habbits of parents and the preconceived notion of genders of colour, since the City sets come in blue boxes, while the Friends ones come in Pink.

[naf]

Theres no reason she cant use the regular "male" police body. I have this torso and when I used it to make a custom "male" character, all anybody could see was his "womanly hips." Thats a problem, clearly that is the detail that people see, and it is an unnecessary detail, as this minifig would be easily ID'ed as a woman based on her fuller lips and longer eyelashes (which is less offensive to me, as for the most part all women have fuller lips and longer eyelashes than men)

It would seem most people aren't getting what I'm trying to say. This isnt a realism issue, its not a feminist issue, it is simply this, the curves are gratuitous, as are the male muscles. No matter what, the shape of these things is square, why are we trying to kid ourselves with printed on curves? Its like drawing a circle on a box and saying its a basketball. I mean, just look at it, they printed the negative space, wtf?

In the very same set that female officer came from,there is a nearly identical non-curvy torso available:

I'm sure there are other examples as well. I don't understand the argument where having torsos and faces with female specific features limits customization, seems like it creates more choices. What if I want my female character to have curves? Despite what the author of the article says, you can see the curve of hips and breasts when wearing coats and other such clothing. Female nurses in hospitals now wear tighter more form fitting scrubs, and female doctors are wearing more form fitting coats. As do the military as seen here:

As I stated in my previous post, I'm not the biggest fan of the printed negative space for hips, but I don't know of a better solution off the top of my head. I like that we have some female-specific torsos, and some female specific heads. I even like the ripped surfer dude, they all adds variety to your minfigs.

Edited July 18, 2014 by naf

[Dorayaki]

In the very same set that female officer came from,there is a nearly identical non-curvy torso available:

I'm sure there are other examples as well. I don't understand the argument where having torsos and faces with female specific features limits customization, seems like it creates more choices. What if I want my female character to have curves? Despite what the author of the article says, you can see the curve of hips and breasts when wearing coats and other such clothing. Female nurses in hospitals now wear tighter more form fitting scrubs, and female doctors are wearing more form fitting coats. As do the military as seen here:

As I stated in my previous post, I'm not the biggest fan of the printed negative space for hips, but I don't know of a better solution off the top of my head. I like that we have some female-specific torsos, and some female specific heads. I even like the ripped surfer dude, they all adds variety to your minfigs.

That's a good point. In the most limited situation, suppose that TLG can only provide a specific number of torsos, I might say that I wouldn't like to have a curvy torso because it can't be swapped with guys (well, unless you want a male character to have curves.....). In the forest police case, well, TLG was able to provide two prints for both genders, that's nothing wrong actually. You may still create a forest police woman with no curvy line if you like that.

Oh, and you remind me that the new torso does look good on a doctress. Hope that TLG would do so in the future.

To me, it looks like guy with mullet, guy and a German Mrs Doubtfire at the end. The only one that looks female has resorted to gender stereotype, and is the very inconspicuous ninja who is overloaded in pink. To me, the face is the most important in identifying gender, things like hair and waistlines are secondary. I just have to look at my own collection, I have more female faces than female hairs, simply because many female figures were in jobs that involved them wearing a hat (such as a mechanic or chef), and would otherwise have no means of identifying gender other than face, in fact, for me, a female face can often overrule an otherwise male outfit and hairdo.

Uh..... I thought I specified that ninja is purple. The Mrs Doubtfire metaphor is great even though she's not smiling.

Anyway, I agree that when the figs are wearing a hat, giving feminie prints could make the figs more recognizeable. However, in real world there are women who don't have femine faces. Adding some combinations of feminine hairpieces+neutral faces would give the female figs more diversity.

Recently TLG also introduces many hats with extended hair part, such as Gail's worker hat. In those cases you don't have to rely on their faces.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Dorayaki

[rollermonkey]

Okay. I randomly made some LDD figures that has no recognizeable female faces or hourglass waistlines. What do you guys think?

Loki as a fireman, guy with gun and glasses, girl ninja, guy in drag

Seriously.

Wah, wah, wah, there's not enough female minifigs in non-female-centric roles... Where are the female cops, etc...

Lego provides female minifigs in non-female-centric roles.

Wah, wah, wah, why do the female minifigs have to be stereotypically female with hourglass torso printing and makeup...

Lego gave us EXACTLY what was asked for, and as usual, it still isn't good enough for some people.

Minifigs, by their very design are very generic. Due to our culture's male-dominated history, this means that generic images are generally interpreted as male. For something generic to be interpreted as female by the majority of people, some concessions to female stereotyping must be made. Lego didn't create the male-dominated world history that we live with, but they do a damn fine job of trying to accommodate reasonable public requests while also remaining profitable.

Get over yourself if you think they aren't.

Don't like torsos with hourglass printing? Don't buy them or sell the ones you have on BL and replace them all with male torsos. Don't like makeup printing on heads? Same thing.

Just don't complain when other people can't see your choices of figures as female, because they've got a lifetime generations of preconditioning telling them what the visual cues are for both genders that don't align with your own viewpoint.

[Lancethecat]

This is the problem that I have with hourglass torsos:

A Fabuland sweater! What a great throwback to the golden age of LEGO! I know that a lot of the Eurobricks mods here are fans of Fabuland, so they'll probably want to use that torso on their own custom minifigures.

Unless, of course, you don't want your custom figure to look like they have huge hips and no waistline. Look, the only thing that I'm complaining about here is the overall quality and look of the figures. This "Fabu-Fan", as she's called, doesn't even look skinny; just really squeezed in the middle. All that I'm saying is that hourglass torsos should be reserved for minifigures who they actually look right on; Wonder Woman being a prime example.

Note: I got the picture of the Fabu-Fan from Brickset. I don't know if it's copyrighted, but if it is, the mods can just delete this post.