AG - Introduction and Discussion

[SpacerSteve]

I am finally able to sign up for AG...

Engineer Donnie Bricko joining M.A.N.T.I.S

I will post my sigfig later today

-D

Welcome Donnie Bricko, you have chosen wisely.

[aeralure]

I am finally able to sign up for AG...

Engineer Donnie Bricko joining M.A.N.T.I.S

I will post my sigfig later today

Welcome to AG Donnie Bricko! Looking forward to seeing your builds, even if you are signing up for Mantis. Have fun!

[Lady K]

I am finally able to sign up for AG...

Engineer Donnie Bricko joining M.A.N.T.I.S

I will post my sigfig later today

-D

Welcome Engineer Donnie Bricko to M.A.N.T.I.S !

[Commander Turtle]

I am finally able to sign up for AG...

Engineer Donnie Bricko joining M.A.N.T.I.S

I will post my sigfig later today

-D

Ah nuts, the MANTIS are multiplying like bacteria!

On the other topic: if I see a builder asking for constructive criticism, I'll try to give it. I also generally try give out presentation advice since presentation is more objectively possible to get better at. I can handle a critique too, so I'll start putting a "CC welcomed" tag in my threads or something.

[CMP]

Some transparency might be called for in terms of scoring.

I'm proud of what I can do in a very small vignette but if this

got a 5, then this

Needs to get like a 9, not a 4.

[Commander Turtle]

The first was a challenge build, marked on a scale of 1-10. Everything else is 1-7, so the first one's "5" was much easier to get

[aeralure]

On the other topic: if I see a builder asking for constructive criticism, I'll try to give it. I also generally try give out presentation advice since presentation is more objectively possible to get better at. I can handle a critique too, so I'll start putting a "CC welcomed" tag in my threads or something.

Yeah, it is so much easier to give advice as regards presentation. A lot of factors affect offering a little constructive criticism, which is why I have mostly shied away from it - that builder's part inventory, time that particular week, build experience, even aesthetic preferences all play a role in the decisions they might make. I've tip-toed past that and mostly found the thing(s) I liked and commented on that. There is usually something in any build that I enjoy or appreciate. Having gone to art school and suffered through many a crit, that's usually the best course too - accentuate the positives and point out a few things that you believe might improve it, remembering for all involved it's simply opinion that's meant to be helpful. If I see "C&C welcome" on a build post I'll try to be more mindful to include something I might think about were it my build to improve it - but remember it's just opinion.

Also, to echo NuckElBerg, I've said it elsewhere, but thanks to the judges for their time investment to keep AG running. No small task! Takes me a long time to go through everyone's builds and comment and I am not even judging.

[Disco86]

In my opinion, the scoring examples are really well choosen by Dardanel. They show some irregulaturity. But we need to think about the judeges pumping out the points really fast. And then it could happen that one build has one point to much, another may be scored a little bit too low. And if you compare those it seems weird. But I prefer speed over quality in this case. Having the scores every tuesday is hard work and it is necessary to keep the things flowing. So I am totally fine with minor judging inacurracies.

The only thing I wonder about, is that mostly Octan builds are rated too high...

[Tomsche]

Having years of wargame painting competition judging under my belt, I actually `understand` the reason it *seems* Octan might feel are rated higher.

In every judging effort, there is something as a `wow factor`, the personal first impression you get by looking at something at first glance.

They have a vivid and lively colourscheme in their white / red / green compared to the darker, duller looking gray / dark red and black / lime green colourschemes of respectively Kawashita and Mantis. That might sound odd, but this happens to make Octan builds stand out more to the background they are on. Take for example a grey rocky planet, the Octan scheme contrasts excellently with it, while the other two`s darker colours tend to blend in more to the surroundings. I saw this happen in wargaming a lot as well, bright and coloured Warhammer Bretonnians or High Elves on average got slightly better points then equal level painted dark and gloomy Dark Elves or Chaos Warrior forces. It`s just, well, a thing, that happens in the brain when you first lay eyes on it.

Is that a critique? No, just something the human brain does to you. On Lego conventions, M-Tron builds tend to capture the eye more then Blacktron builds as well due to their vivid red and trans greenish / yellow parts then black with `bland` yellow transparent pieces. Happy colours give a feel good mindset.

This might not make a big difference per se, perhaps giving a 4 where an equal build of the other two corporations get a 3, but this can cause a small shift in the tallied up and rounded out points afterwards.

Personally, I don`t take to much offence on the scores. Sure, i might have thought left or right something is rated one to high or one to low, but in the end, I just build for my own pleasure and I just like being `part of something` with a story and some tactics, but I think that once all planets are `dominated`, the whole game is going on a total overhaul anyways, as people will be building a bit less frequent as `immediate result` aka a planet gained will diminish and then we will be seeing a more consistent line of judging because the amount of MOC`s, in my expectation, every week will fall from 45+ to around 25+.

Just my 2 cents

[aeralure]

They have a vivid and lively colourscheme in their white / red / green compared to the darker, duller looking gray / dark red and black / lime green colourschemes of respectively Kawashita and Mantis. That might sound odd, but this happens to make Octan builds stand out more to the background they are on. Take for example a grey rocky planet, the Octan scheme contrasts excellently with it, while the other two`s darker colours tend to blend in more to the surroundings. I saw this happen in wargaming a lot as well, bright and coloured Warhammer Bretonnians or High Elves on average got slightly better points then equal level painted dark and gloomy Dark Elves or Chaos Warrior forces. It`s just, well, a thing, that happens in the brain when you first lay eyes on it.

This is a good point. I noticed that in particular this week while working on my build (and in some comments regarding it) - it was all grey - and not really a lot I could do about it. The standard rank-in-file fighters had to be grey to be in line with our color scheme, as did the asteroids, and then the blackness of space. Some of my comments on Octan builds also wowed at the contrast and use of color. It's just a natural thing that happens as regards color use to really gravitate to range and contrast. I wouldn't really mark it as an unfair advantage Octan has - rather - it's simply part of the color scheme usage. I chose to join Kawashita specifically for the color use choices (one of the reasons anyway) so it's on me really to find ways to use it the best I can.

I too build for my pleasure. I think it's true for all of us. This game (and others on the site) provide a structure and a means to stimulate creative ideas and a challenge each week such that I build things I might not otherwise do not having the external input. That said, I'm finding more and more that I am also building for my team members and my corporation, as I feel a responsibility to do the best I can each week to support our goals, so it would be wrong for me to say that the scoring is of lessor importance. It's become both a reward for effort and time involved as well as a demarcation of how well I did for the team each week and that is equally important - so I fully understand the discussion here as regards scoring.

I've been wishing to stay out of the public conversation as regards scoring here. I made a few comments on our internal threads. I suppose I'll add a few thoughts now that I have dragged myself unto it.

Part of what I think makes scoring seem to have an unpredictable range is exactly what Tomsche alluded to above: presentation is a big part of the scoring. I'd go as far to say it makes up for about half of the scoring overall based on what I can see having now participated for enough weeks to see the trend. Things like story, photography, detail shots, integration of the build with the story in terms of movement/changes between scenes, as well as the above-mentioned intangible of aesthetic impact and personal preference as regards "wow factor." These things in addition to more direct build related categories like size, creative part use, color usage and the like. Time and effort spent on a build seem to have little direct impact, as time and effort spent really cannot be reliably estimated by the judges, except as time and effort affects build size. Add to that a bit of "fudge factor." There seems to be no real penalty for limited part availability for someone building using a small parts collection (and this is a good thing, imho) and their effort is rated on other additional factors as regards presentation - sometimes moreso than the build if creativity is deemed to be high.

Average all these categories together (how each judge does it, and what categories they use differ I am sure) and compress it to a scale of 1-7 and you're invariably going to find some 3s 4s and 5s comparing directly a little oddly at first glance. I think the very high and the rather low scores probably are more consistent.

So given all that I think the process is really pretty good (especially when speed of judging and the volunteering of time is taken into account). I don't have any substantial complaint, which is why I have stayed out of the discussion until now.

As for the rest, I am fine knowing that presentation qualities play as much a role as build qualities and leave it at that (if I have estimated the process somewhat accurately), as I understand there are enough intangibles at work in there to create some surprises in scoring expectations. I wouldn't want too much transparency such that we start gaming the scoring system. Then again, even if we knew all the categories and the process exactly, given that there appears to be some emphasis on creative interpretation, presentation and individual wow factor, there may be no way to game the scoring system and transparency would be fine. It might help those who have some questions understand the scoring better. I know for a fact it's not a simple matter of looking at a build and saying it's a 3 or it's a 4 and moving on - I know the judges each have their process - so asking what differentiates a 3 from a 4 has no simple answer.

Anyway, there's my wall of text on the matter. I am happy with the judging process and appreciate the work and time involved. I went to art school. I know this kind of thing involves as much subjectivity as it does objectivity so I am not invested in trying to hone it down into an objective system as I know that's not possible.

[Zaael]

@Bob:

- in the timeline on 10 julali Paul Brickton is depicted as Thesseus B. von Geekington from Kawashita. No idea if that influences the scores

- Commander Beltar's build is not in the timeline

[Bob De Quatre]

@Bob:

- in the timeline on 10 julali Paul Brickton is depicted as Thesseus B. von Geekington from Kawashita. No idea if that influences the scores

- Commander Beltar's build is not in the timeline

Yes I had a problem with the scoring spreadsheet, the "Disco86 line" indicated the previous player... I think I fixed all of that now.

[Zaael]

Yes I had a problem with the scoring spreadsheet, the "Disco86 line" indicated the previous player... I think I fixed all of that now.

Yes, the first one is fixed. Agent Beltar isn't in the timeline still though. Still hiding in the ceiling maybe?

[Disco86]

Yes I had a problem with the scoring spreadsheet, the "Disco86 line" indicated the previous player... I think I fixed all of that now.

Still missing my additional domination point, because of Domination for Dummies.

And I was wondering how Danielle Long at 11th Julai could earn 3 additional domination points ?

[Bob De Quatre]

Yes, the first one is fixed. Agent Beltar isn't in the timeline still though. Still hiding in the ceiling maybe?

Fixed too... Seems his build was lost in time...

Still missing my additional domination point, because of Domination for Dummies.

Thanks I do this sort of errors only once per week... It's a mess to correct it afterward...

And I was wondering how Danielle Long at 11th Julai could earn 3 additional domination points ?

Technologies and personal equipment I presume.

[Big Sal]

Bob, I scored a 7 for my build but I think the timeline thinks I scored 6, so I'm missing a domination point, 10 credits and 10 water (Or the score is wrong!)

Edited July 15, 2015 by Big Sal

[Dannylonglegs]

Still missing my additional domination point, because of Domination for Dummies.

And I was wondering how Danielle Long at 11th Julai could earn 3 additional domination points ?

If you look at my build, I have both a land vehicle and a space ship (motorbike and "Hopper") and I personally have the Domination for Dummies book. As Octan has the tech "Ground Tactics" and "Spaceship Mastery" we get an extra DP for land ships and Spaceships.

You probably didn't see them since I posted early with a prelim pic. I did so because at the time I thought Lady K was going to post that day, and we wanted to post my build first as it introduced her landing on F02 (like a boss!). I finished the build and posted new pics before the deadline on Sunday.

It was a fun challenge fitting the land vehicle in the space vehicle! the cost of my munchkining was that I don't integrate my attempted "science" bonus well enough to receive it, which I won't argue against. That seems fair, as it wasn't even Dr. Long doing the equiptment test. all she did was stand on a platform and look grumpy.... which, to be fair, is half her job description.

Does that help?

~Insectoid Aristocrat

Edited July 15, 2015 by Dannylonglegs

[Commander Turtle]

If I may be blunt, I'm not entirely sold that including a premoulded motorbike fulfils the spirit of "land vehicle", although that's no criticism of your build - I love that it nests. I'm just surprised that it counts, given that Bob said a few pages back that there were minimum requirements.

[LegoMathijs]

Hi!

Mathijs is joining M.A.N.T.I.S as mining equipment engineer

M.A.N.T.I.S_mining_equipment_engineer_small_picture by Mathijs Bongers, on Flickr

Edited July 15, 2015 by LegoMathijs

[Dannylonglegs]

If I may be blunt, I'm not entirely sold that including a premoulded motorbike fulfils the spirit of "land vehicle", although that's no criticism of your build - I love that it nests. I'm just surprised that it counts, given that Bob said a few pages back that there were minimum requirements.

Thanks! Glad you liked it!

I kind of disagree with you, but not for any "strategic" reason. I don't necessarily think that the "brick built" aspect of a land vehicle should be the deciding factor in whether or not it counts. Integration and focus are more important in my opinion. As well as "effort put in" obviously I didn't build the motorbike myself, but I did build the entire scene (the ramp in the canyon, the container of the Hopper) around the motorbike. I would have added on to the motorbike too, but the piece has 1 connection point, which I used to clip it into the container. That, to me, is why it should be counted. If I had thrown the bike in as a background item, or in some other way that did not put it in such focus, then it would not have been counted. I don't think that using a prefab piece like the motorbike or bike piece should not count if effort is clearly put in to integrating and displaying it as a central part of the Moc/story.

~Insectoid Aristocrat

[Lady K]

Hi!

Mathijs is joining M.A.N.T.I.S as mining equipment engineer

M.A.N.T.I.S_mining_equipment_engineer_small_picture by Mathijs Bongers, on Flickr

Welcome Engineer Mathijs to M.A.N.T.I.S.

[Corvo Wingtips]

Salutations.

Agent Corvo Wingtips, gentleman mercenary, at your service. I have been recruited by the Octan Corporation's Special Forces for my, ahem, talents. The receptionist outside was quite cold to my charms so I am not sure if I need to show my resume but I will be doing it anyway because, well, who doesn't want to hear of my countless, ehrm, seven exploits?

1. Won my first duel at the age of fifteen against M.A.N.T.I.S. Commander Rathbrick.

2. Destabilized an alien government by spreading false information about the senate's involvement in gambling hall constructions.

3. Kidnapped three alien princesses.

4. Rescued three alien princesses.

5. Seduced three alien princesses.

6. Escaped a maximum security penitentiary with only a toothpick and a deck of playing cards.

7. Stole classified documents from Octan HQ...and was caught. Given the choice between execution or working as their agent to pay off my debt, the latter is far more preferable.

Well, I will be working with Octan indefinitely or until a higher bidder comes along. I would say 'see you soon' but if you did, I wouldn't be doing my job correctly. Toodle-loo!

Edited July 15, 2015 by Corvo Wingtips

[goatman461]

Salutations.

Welcome Corvo,

You'll need 10 posts in the forums before we can private message with you. Feel free to comment on some builds or share your MOCs in the appropriate forum to get your first 10.

[Kai NRG]

Welcome Corvo! EB uses the BBCode, so just hit the Flickr share link and then go to the BBCode tab and grab the code for the appropriate size!

[Corvo Wingtips]

Welcome Corvo,

You'll need 10 posts in the forums before we can private message with you. Feel free to comment on some builds or share your MOCs in the appropriate forum to get your first 10.

goatman461,

Thanks for the tip!

Welcome Corvo! EB uses the BBCode, so just hit the Flickr share link and then go to the BBCode tab and grab the code for the appropriate size!

Thanks for the tip Kai. Will update original post. (EDIT: tried and I don't think i'm doing it right. That is the BBCode and I added it via the image URL tool but still coming out funky.)

Edited July 15, 2015 by Corvo Wingtips