Two double powered Maersk engines

[LegoSjaak]

Hi, i would like to put two PF trainmotors in both of my Maersk-engines...and after i have done that, i would like to check how many cars it can pull around my layout.. But do i really need an extra PF cable to switch one of the both trainmotors, to be sure the will runn both forward??

Greetz, LegoSjaak

[roamingstop]

Hi, i would like to put two PF trainmotors in both of my Maersk-engines...and after i have done that, i would like to check how many cars it can pull around my layout.. But do i really need an extra PF cable to switch one of the both trainmotors, to be sure the will runn both forward??

Greetz, LegoSjaak

If you want an ugly cable sticking out one way... then no. But if you want it looking neat and tidy one of the motors has to be in reverse. Or you make some motorised bogeys (see RB) and mount the XL inside the body (on my list to do).

The cheapest option is to cut a cable and switch the central pins... so that it is a 'reverse'. Or put a long cable between two semi-pernament linked engines (A-A).

[AussieJimbo]

You don't need to cut any cables. Lego left a perfect spot for the standard PF reverser switch deep in the innards of the loco.

My dual-motored yellow Maersk has pulled about 15 cars IIRC without struggling. The double motors just give so much power and traction, particularly with this loco design. Two dual-motor locos would pull almost anything you threw at it.

:classic:

Edited June 23, 2011 by AussieJimbo

[LEGO Guy Bri]

Take a gander at this

video. Notice the trailing engine and the last car's bogie derailing. They stopped the 25 car train and restarted with only one engine and reached a pretty good speed. Pretty impressive train and track! Edited June 23, 2011 by Leg Godt Gud

[hoeij]

Hi, i would like to put two PF trainmotors in both of my Maersk-engines...and after i have done that, i would like to check how many cars it can pull around my layout..

The pulling power would be much greater than the strength of the magnets. So the length of the train you can pull depends only on the strength of the magnets, and does not depend on the strength of the 4 PF motors.

To put it another way: If you use just 1 engine, with 2 PF motors, then that will be able to pull just as many cars (unless you decide to strengthen the couplers of course).

If you want to use two engines (the first with 2 PF motors, the second with no motors) then pulling this dummy engine is about as hard as pulling 8 Maersk cargo cars. But you can drastically reduce this load (discussed in another thread). At our train show I had a train with 2 Maersk engines and 8 cargo cars. This train had just two 9V motors in it (which are about equally strong as the PF motors, certainly not stronger) both of them in the front engine. This train ran fine on speed setting #2 (which is only 4.2 volts) (at least, it ran fine after cleaning the track). In other words, this 10-feet long train was a mild load on the two motors, because the train already moves in the second-lowest speed setting.

[AussieJimbo]

Magnet strength is a easy issue to overcome, you simply lock the couplings with 1x2 plates or tiles.

:classic:

[peterab]

Take a gander at this

video. Notice the trailing engine and the last car's bogie derailing. They stopped the 25 car train and restarted with only one engine and reached a pretty good speed. Pretty impressive train and track!

That track is used for high voltage (~20V) running of 9V motors, so are we sure the Maersk used in the video even has PF? If not it's not really relevant to the question.

[LegoSjaak]

The pulling power would be much greater than the strength of the magnets. So the length of the train you can pull depends only on the strength of the magnets, and does not depend on the strength of the 4 PF motors.

To put it another way: If you use just 1 engine, with 2 PF motors, then that will be able to pull just as many cars (unless you decide to strengthen the couplers of course).

If you want to use two engines (the first with 2 PF motors, the second with no motors) then pulling this dummy engine is about as hard as pulling 8 Maersk cargo cars. But you can drastically reduce this load (discussed in another thread). At our train show I had a train with 2 Maersk engines and 8 cargo cars. This train had just two 9V motors in it (which are about equally strong as the PF motors, certainly not stronger) both of them in the front engine. This train ran fine on speed setting #2 (which is only 4.2 volts) (at least, it ran fine after cleaning the track). In other words, this 10-feet long train was a mild load on the two motors, because the train already moves in the second-lowest speed setting.

Thanks Hoeij, those magnets could indeed become a problem, but i can connect them with a plate... Maybe i will test different setting...but the ultimate combination would be 4 PF motors in both Maersktrains..... therefore a either need a switch or a need to cut a extensioncable.....well...now i hope there is time left for me this weekend to check this out...

All repliers, thank you so far..!!

Greetz, LegoSjaak

[Legoless]

That track is used for high voltage (~20V) running of 9V motors, so are we sure the Maersk used in the video even has PF? If not it's not really relevant to the question.

Nice track banking. Although it was most likely that which was the cause of the rear loco derailing as it is best to have some kind of suspension or compensation when using banked track. That said, the haulage of that one loco looked far more impressive than is usual for Lego locos.

re the magnet issue- I read somewhere (where I can't remember) that you can increase the strength of the standard magnetic couplings by putting a small high-power magnet between them. But you have to take care when coupling cars together not to let them 'smash' into each other as such magnets are prone to shattering.

[hoeij]

Thanks Hoeij, those magnets could indeed become a problem, but i can connect them with a plate... Maybe i will test different setting...but the ultimate combination would be 4 PF motors in both Maersktrains..... therefore a either need a switch or a need to cut a extensioncable.....well...now i hope there is time left for me this weekend to check this out...

All repliers, thank you so far..!!

Greetz, LegoSjaak

Sjaak, how many train cars do you have that you can put behind it?

There are a few other issues to consider too: alkaline AAA batteries really aren't strong enough to pull a long train powered by 4 PF train motors. With high-drain applications, most of their energy content gets lost, and your train might only run 10 minutes or so. In high-drain applications, recheargeable batteries last much longer.

You can see in this graph:

http://site.greenbatteries.com/documents/alkaline-vs-nimh.jpg

that if you pull 0.5 amp out of AA batteries, then only about 1/4 of the batteries energy content will actually come out as electricity, and the rest will be lost. Rechargeable batteries do better under this high load, they lose less energy so they last longer (even if their initial energy content was lower).

In your experiment, say 2 engines and 20 cars, you'll be pulling 0.8 amp (more if you add more cars) and you're pulling that not out of AA, but out of AAA batteries (which obviously can handle much less than AA's). If you use alkaline batteries, you would be way overdrawing them, rapidly killing the batteries. Your train might run for only 10 minutes or so (again: rechargeable's will last longer).

Also, given the limits to what the 6 AAA batteries can deliver, I suspect that with 1 battery box, a train with 3 PF motors will actually have more pulling power than a train with 4 PF motors. If you really want to power 4 PF motors with 1 battery box, and actually get more pulling power than you would have with 3 PF motors, then you'll need to use a LiPo battery, like the lego 8878 LiPo. This LiPo will deliver the amps that you need with no problems. It's not only stronger than 6 AAA batteries, but even stronger than 6 AA batteries (a lego technic excavator with a 8878 will perform better than one with 6 AA batteries). With the 8878, your train, pulling almost 1 amp, should still last more than an hour.

[ZueriHB]

(..) With the 8878, your train, pulling almost 1 amp, should still last more than an hour.

I run my trains with the LiPo battery and most with two PF motors. It lasts about 6-7 hours (Speed Setting 3 or 4, two restarts because of 3h timeout).

of a Maersk engine, outfitted with two PF motors pulling a dummy engine and 12 cars.

So I don't really see any need for more than 2 Motors.

[LEGO Guy Bri]

@peterab: That track is used for high voltage (~20V) running of 9V motors, so are we sure the Maersk used in the video even has PF? If not it's not really relevant to the question.

I know, I was using that as a comparison that, whether it was 9V or PF, they both have very similar load stats. So which ever it is, it could be used as reference for one pulling engine with a large load:classic:

Edited June 24, 2011 by Leg Godt Gud

[hoeij]

I run my trains with the LiPo battery and most with two PF motors. It lasts about 6-7 hours (Speed Setting 3 or 4, two restarts because of 3h timeout).

I thought that the time-out was after 2 hours? Are you sure the train is moving for more than 6 hours? That's twice as long as the Emerald Night.

of a Maersk engine, outfitted with two PF motors pulling a dummy engine and 12 cars.

So I don't really see any need for more than 2 Motors.

I agree.

[AussieJimbo]

I understand that the XL motor in the Emerald Night draws much more current and delivers more power that the PF train motor. There were some specs posted in an earlier thread I believe.

There will also be a certain amount of loss in the EN drive train that will make it less efficient than directly driving the four wheels of a dual motored PF loco.

All my recent tracks have had curved grades on them (one plate per track segment up thick rugs, 2 plates per segment down) which have limited my testing of the ultimate pulling power of the 2PF Maersk loco. (I set up big rambling layouts like your's ZueriHB but I envy your hoard of straights)

I've been meaning to set up a nice big easy loop to see just how many cars it can pull comfortably on flat ground. There's no doubt it's a very capable machine.

:classic:

Edited June 25, 2011 by AussieJimbo

[kyphur]

Just wondering...

If you're putting a dummy Locomotive on the end of the train and only want to use 2 train motors why not just put the second train motor in the trailing Locomotive?

I understand that you'd need another PF Receiver and Battery but by having a Loco pushing it would overcome the coupling strength issue as the rear Loco would push the rolling stock to reduce the strain on the couplings.

This is how I run my Maersk and Cargo Train. I put both of the IR Receivers one the same channel & color connector so that one transmitter controls both Locos

[AussieJimbo]

I've used that config on long trains too. It also helps overcome the difficulties of grades and tight bits of trackwork like horseshoe curves.

The Maersk has been strong enough not to warrant it on the trains I've run with it so far. However there reaches a point where the train will pull itself off the track if there is too much weight or drag on the far end so you have no choice but to add a helper engine, as you would in real life for all the same reasons.

:classic:

Edited June 25, 2011 by AussieJimbo

[LegoSjaak]

Hi all, i decided to start with one motor in each engine...and see what happens.....!!!

i\I will let you know!

Greetz, LegoSjaak

[hoeij]

If you're putting a dummy Locomotive on the end of the train and only want to use 2 train motors why not just put the second train motor in the trailing Locomotive?

If you press the red stop button, and if the front locomotive receives the signal but the rear one does not, then the front of the train stops and the rear engine will start pushing cars off the track (off the table, onto a concrete floor). That's why I prefer putting both motors in the same engine.

[LegoSjaak]

If you press the red stop button, and if the front locomotive receives the signal but the rear one does not, then the front of the train stops and the rear engine will start pushing cars off the track (off the table, onto a concrete floor). That's why I prefer putting both motors in the same engine.

That is true, especially with the red container cars from the 7939 set..the are easily pushed off the track.... I made a set up with 3 7939 cargo engines and 2 Maersk engines, so total of 5 motors... i found out it was too difficult to let them run because of the different channels and directions...so, i have to put them on one or two channels first..... than i will find out if those 5 engines can pull about 25 cars...

Greetz, LegoSjaak

[kyphur]

If you press the red stop button, and if the front locomotive receives the signal but the rear one does not, then the front of the train stops and the rear engine will start pushing cars off the track (off the table, onto a concrete floor). That's why I prefer putting both motors in the same engine.

This isn't a problem I've had with the Maersk Locomotive. I've run it with 11 Cars, Loco in front & Rear both powered and it seems the IR Receiver is mounted high enough that the stop signal gets to both Locos every time. Not the CITY Cargo Train is another story, I've had to be more careful when running it like that.

[legoguy475]

I don't know if this has been posted before, but I need some help with my Maersk Train. I have it motorized with one Power Functions Motor the way it is shown in the book, but now I want to add a second motor to allow it to pull another non motorized engine (A Dash 9 in Union Pacific Livery that I'm working on) and some more train cars. I know the motor will have to be added in the front, and I need to know what I will need to do it. Will I need to buy the Reverse Polarity Switch when I purchase a second motor? Also, can one battery box power two motors?

[roamingstop]

I don't know if this has been posted before....

Just look about 10 posts below yours in the topic index.

http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=56886

[WesternOutlaw]

Topic merged.

[cei]

You don't need to cut any cables. Lego left a perfect spot for the standard PF reverser switch deep in the innards of the loco.

My dual-motored yellow Maersk has pulled about 15 cars IIRC without struggling. The double motors just give so much power and traction, particularly with this loco design. Two dual-motor locos would pull almost anything you threw at it.

:classic:

Where did you hide the PF reverser in the loco? I'm trying to double-motor my front Maersk at the moment.

[AussieJimbo]

Where did you hide the PF reverser in the loco? I'm trying to double-motor my front Maersk at the moment.

Have a look at page 19 of the loco build instructions:

http://cache.lego.com/bigdownloads/buildinginstructions/4654998.pdf

There is a 2x4 space between that stickered tile assembly and the back of the cab. I don't use that sub-component in my alternate build so I have more space to play with but I think you should have room to attach the reverser switch on top of that 2x4 Maersk blue brick.

In your stock loco you'll need to put the cable end towards the front and then loop the cables back through the limited space in that tile assembly. You may need to replace that Maersk blue 2x4 with a 2x2 so you can put the reverser on the floor of the loco to give you more room.

Good luck with it.

My current record is 20 wagons with the Yellow Maersk, with some wheelslip issues due to the need for loops at the Lego room and lounge room ends of the track. With a bit more room for wider loops it would be fine. It can pull the load on the straights without a problem at power setting 3 or 4.

A bit of track work to smooth things out a bit and I've now got 23 wagons circulating slowly but reliably at power setting 4 (@7.2 volts because of rechargable batteries) with minimal wheel slip.

This loco is a power house.

:classic:

Edited August 9, 2011 by AussieJimbo