Another case of plagiarism?

[Sariel]

you jumped the gun and made an accusation that didn't warrant it

That sounds interesting - did I call you egoistic or brought some book into it, or was it you? I see a number of accusations against me here, and none of them warranted.

you need better social skills.

That may very well be, but I don't see how it applies to the problem of the contest.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Sariel

[Saberwing40k]

Guys, guys, we're all friends here, right? I think that it is hilariously unlikely that somebody would be able to make a model that is as detailed as this one is, in only fifteen hours. And, it's a moot point anyway, as this dude was not allowed to enter the competition anyway.

[legomuppet9]

Chuk, I have read the whole topic and I feel that you just have a personal grudge against Sariel and YOU are the one who is egoistic and has bad social skills.

Anyway, back on topic, I think half the model is identical, the other half, is ever so slightly different, probably so then he could say it wasn't plagiarism. The fact that the contest judge said it was a copy says a lot.

I use people mechanisms and ideas in my models all the time, however I credit the author where necessary and I do not copy whole models and then enter a competition with them. So Sariel, I am on your side here, it is a copy of your (by the way brilliant) model.

[Sariel]

Thank you. I have asked moderator to close or remove the topic, as the issue in question is now solved, and it no longer serves any valid purpose, except perhaps for bringing out bad tensions.

[Meatman]

Well the wheels are exactly the same and whomever built this model most certainly had seen Sariel's model at some point. But looking deeper into the build, it does seem to be constructed much differently even though it has a similar shape.

I would like to hear the author's thoughts on this build. Does anyone know if he posts here?

That Peterbuilt Dump Trick that he did certainly does look nice, so I would say that the builder does have some very good skills in building, that is assuming that the truck isn't someone else's.

[tmctiger]

Hi Sariel,

ok let us go through the issue point for point:

first of all: the model you did is not "rare" - just enter "JCB 465" in googles image search - I found three Images showing the JCB 465 with black boom and JCB logo placed as placed on your model.

second: you calim that several things are identical to your build. But if you have a closer look you will see that:

- the arm is NOT identical to yours

- the cabin is built DIFFERENT

- the back of the loader is built DIFFERENT

- the mechanic (as far as we can see) is completely DIFFERENT

- the step on the side to reach the cabin is DIFFERENT

- the fenders are built DIFFERENT

- even the size of the thing is DIFFERENT

The only thing which is indeed built the same way as you did it are the rims. (but well: http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=55472 - And attaching the disc to the tooth wheel isn't that effort)

So it looks like you have an exclusive contract with JCB for designing their loaders in Lego - right? Otherwise I can't understand your reaction. And it seems that I am not alone with this opinion.

And you will call this build a rip-off? I don't see it that way.

If I look at this build I can see a independent solution of the JCB 465 (even we don't know if it is a 465 - it also could be a 426ZX and so on... JCB seems to have a strong corporate identity ;) ) with black front boom. Nothing special so far.

So I still don't get you point.

Regards

[Gene]

Cool off guys. We are all inspired by many object of desire. Creative or not, the first builder will always opens up our lego building techniques and goes into archive. When Lego intro new parts, older models may also benefit in certain ways. PEACE : )

[Rook]

Doesn't look close enough to me. The only part that is similar is the front end and could simply be inspired by yours. There's too much to call it copy in my opinion. One the best ways of learning to build better is by trying to build what you see in someone else's work or in real life.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Rook

[Anio]

There is no clue that prooves that the chassis is the same. At least for now.

But regarding the detail (stickers, dish in the front, arm, wheels, lights, mudguards) I can not believe the guy came up with exactly the same solutions without looking at Sariel's model.

Who could believe such a coincidence ?

So, the question is not "Did the guy take inspiration on Sariel's model ?". Cause the answer is obviously yes.

But rather "Where does plagiarism begin ?"

Edited December 10, 2012 by Anio

[piterx]

...hmmm you know what guys?

im new on this forum and i don't know personalities, so my opinion (based on what i read) could be totally wrong, i apologize now if someone gets offended (and i also apologize for bad english XD):

if the most of us is probably here to have fun just like me, there are some builders (in this case sariel) who act like damn rockstars....

i mean, lego is just a toy! calm down everyone, who gives a single damn about who invented what and when?...no one invented nothing!

all we do is trying to re-design with legos third's inventions...

what i personally do when i design something is "SHARING KNOWLEDGE" because i'd like that someone else can take benefit from it. I dont give a damn if he's gonna put it in his website or whatever...

seriously, can someone of us claim himself the first inventor of something?

if you think you're an inventor and you want to be quoted in others creations, well you'd probably better not share things on a forum before u get a patent!

im tired of this rat race...c'mon!

i'm writing this after i've seen the two models...yeah they're similar, probably the guy took various ideas from the sariel's model, but damn! they're not built in the same way....and even if they were i dont think sariel bought a patent on his model!

so you can accuse the guy of beeing a copier and not beeing creative but you cant expect that you'll be forever the only one who did something!

and by the way, its just a damn toy -_-

Edited December 10, 2012 by piterx

[Meatman]

So, the question is not "Did the guy take inspiration on Sariel's model ?". Cause the answer is obviously yes.

But rather "Where does plagiarism begin ?"

Very good point. I have been looking over these pictures back and forth for the past 1/2 hour and I keep saying "Ok that is Sariel's idea" but this, this, this, and this are not. From a distance they look identical, but when you start digging in, they are far from it. I don't think I would label the model as a whole as "Plagiarized" but there are a few elements that are without a doubt "Borrowed" from Sariel's project. This is almost like the 10228 Haunted House debate all over again.

...hmmm you know what guys?

im new on this forum and i don't know personalities, so my opinion (based on what i read) could be totally wrong, i apologize now if someone gets offended (and i also apologize for bad english XD):

if the most of us is probably here to have fun just like me, there are some builders (in this case sariel) who act like damn rockstars....

i mean, lego is just a toy! calm down everyone, who gives a single damn about who invented what and when?...no one invented nothing!

I agree with this except for when someone is using someone's else's direct ideas or designs to profit from(or win a contest). I have seem many people use crowkillers, Skyliners, and Nathanael Kuipers instructions and build and sell a model for profit on Ebay and other sites. Nothing illegal about it, but it is morally wrong.

I think there are enough differences in the topic at hand to say that this model is an "inspired" build, but not a copy.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Meatman

[piterx]

yeah that's morally wrong lol!

getting inspired from the best model that you like is good, because you will try to add your knowledge to make it better if you can!

thinking that no one should upgrade your model or modify it according to his needs is just senseless...because if that's your idea then you shouldn't share your creations :)

[Sariel]

ok let us go through the issue point for point:

Your argument is very simple: it's 80% the same, but he made the remaining 20% a little differently, so hey, it's an entirely new thing and he probably never even seen my model.

Forgive me if I refuse to discuss at this level. It's ridiculous.

And attaching the disc to the tooth wheel isn't that effort):

No, but somehow you didn't find anyone else doing it, did you?

Doesn't look close enough to me. The only part that is similar is the front end and could simply be inspired by yours.

The closeness is in the eye of the beholder I guess, but the point is: it's wrong to enter a competition for original creations with something that was in the very least case heavily inspired.

One the best ways of learning to build better is by trying to build what you see in someone else's work or in real life.

I fully agree. Now, does entering a competition with a non-original model also counts as a way of learning?

if the most of us is probably here to have fun just like me, there are some builders (in this case sariel) who act like damn rockstars....

i mean, lego is just a toy! calm down everyone, who gives a single damn about who invented what and when?...no one invented nothing!

all we do is trying to re-design with legos third's inventions...

Actually, no. LEGO has been seen using a number of solutions that were developed by AFOLs first.

But that's not the point. The point is, he was cheating at a competition, and it happens that the competition's organizer sees it the same way. Which part of saying this is acting like a rockstar?

I dont give a damn if he's gonna put it in his website or whatever...

Neither do I, but now put yourself in the shoes of other contestants he put this model against. Again: copying is not the problem. Entering it in a contest is.

seriously, can someone of us claim himself the first inventor of something?

Sure, let me just mention Jennifer Clark or Erik Leppen. They invented dozens of solutions.

Seriously, focus on what I said in the very first post: COMPETITION that he entered. With prizes and with other contestants who would feel cheated if he won. It's strange how some of you focus entirely on who started this subject and go "bashing time", but not for a second think about the other contestants who actually tried to win with their own, not "inspired" creations. Can't say why, but you seem to make it personal.

[Rook]

Yeah my only issue with plagiarism is when someone use instructions designed by someone or just simply uses someone else's image and calls it their own. Beyond that people are going copy and alter other peoples’ building techniques. And making a model of a similar item in a similar scale will result in similar techniques hopefully in the end similar appearance.

[lilongwe]

You are a good Lego builder and I can't understand you where that should be a plagiarism.

If that should be a plagiarism, then nobody could build the real model with Lego in future...

And another thing. Why do you publicate your models and write a book if nobody could use inspiration of them? Please help me to understand that.

[tmctiger]

Your argument is very simple: it's 80% the same, but he made the remaining 20% a little differently, so hey, it's an entirely new thing and he probably never even seen my model.

Forgive me if I refuse to discuss at this level. It's ridiculous.

That's your opinion: mine is more 95% his design 5% from you.

The closeness is in the eye of the beholder I guess, but the point is: it's wrong to enter a competition for original creations with something that was in the very least case heavily inspired.

You know my opinion regrading this model - so it is valid for me to enter a competition ...

[Sariel]

That's your opinion: mine is more 95% his design 5% from you.

You're too kind. Why not go 195% of his design, since you're having fun anyway?

Why do you publicate your models and write a book if nobody could use inspiration of them? Please help me to understand that.

Read my first post. Or, let me repeat the whole point for you: I don't mind copying. I mind entering a copy in a competition for original creations. It's unfair to other contestants.

I won't be answering any more posts that completely miss the point of this topic. Read before you write.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Sariel

[lilongwe]

ok, but sorry in my opinion that is no plagiarism.

[jorgeopesi]

Talking to a friend I did this phrase... "It is so ironic... fighting for copies when all of us are building them... looks like the first one who build a good copy has the copy copyright". When you build an almost perfect MOC and another one build the same MOC the two will closely resemble, in this case I see complicated construction techniques for a simple copying but who knows... We are becoming more and many take accurate measurements and proportions, I'm building a car that has been done many times and it will be different only inside... if I do well it will resemble the previous , but I always loved that car and I won´t stop because there are a few good.

[legomuppet9]

Under closer examination I think it is similar. however the dimensions are different, so is the cab, the back, the way the linear actuators are connected and so on. The only bit I can see which are identical are the fenders and the wheels. He may have taken inspiration from how you did this in his own model, but don't forget that you are both making a model of the same vehicle. I also think that as this is only similar (which would be logical as you are making the same model) I think he took inspiration from you, and besides, he can't have rebuilt a model like this brick for brick without instructions, so I think that he used your model as a basis to make his.

After this I feel that this is not a copy so I think it was ok for him to enter it into the competition.

[Lipko]

It's not just a few people who doesn't really see the plagiarism here. Sure, it does have some copied solutions, but they seem to be only a few aesthetic stuff. The kid was a bit stupid (or rather immature) to copy them, but Sariel's solutions were good for those, so they were copied. A few aesthetic parts.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Lipko

[1974]

LEGO has been seen using a number of solutions that were developed by AFOLs first.

That's absolute nonsense. You do not know what TLG designers do or don't. Just because a certain technique is first seen in a moc, it does not mean that it hasen't been done at TLG's lab like ten years ago. Remember, they do this for a living, they have access to every freakin' part and they can even get new parts made. And to boot, they're quite a few people at that headquarter bouncing ideas back and forth

[Big Cam]

Thank you. I have asked moderator to close or remove the topic, as the issue in question is now solved, and it no longer serves any valid purpose, except perhaps for bringing out bad tensions.

Good enough. Closed per your request.