Voting Thread: Warzon 5, Battle of the Deep Sands

[SkaForHire]

Who Can Vote: EVERYONE

How to Vote: Look at all the MOCs from each side. First, determine which side won this battle. You should base your opinion on a couple different factors:

A)Build quality amongst all MOCs

B)Number of MOCs of quality [Please remember that Ulandus has a numbers disadvantage here in terms of team members, so even though they only had four builds, that is almost half their builders participating. Similarly, Both Ulandus and High Council have less highly active members ]

C) Story of the MOC

D) Fit to the Warzone. If you are not familiar with the requirements of the warzone, please at least read the “mini-challenge,” “restrictions,” and “Judging” sections listed below.

You can weigh these in any order, or add your own categories. Please consider the three above in your decision though. You may want to clarify or lobby for your favorites in this thread, but you don’t have to write anything if you don’t want to.

Next, pick an answer to each question in the poll.

In the second three questions it will ask you to pick your favorite MOC from each side. Please judge on quality of MOC and its story. You can add other qualifications to your own judging process if you would like.

Finally, submit your vote.

Then, post and tell us who won the “Best Sand” Category in your opinion.

Voting ends April 12th

Warzone 5: Battle of the Deep Sands

Location: I 10

Who Can Participate: All Factions

Terrain: This battle happens in the heart of the Dune Sea. The Dune Sea is full of large, often changing, crests of sand. There is very little stable ground, and where there is, there is usually some small oasis as the source of water. However, these Oases often disappear for months at a time under the ever-changing sands. A haboob can pick up at any moment and blow mountains of sand, literally, miles from its original point. Even though not the largest desert in Kaliphlin, the absence of landmarks makes it very easy to become trapped in the Dune Sea, often a traveler can be driven mad from his or her surroundings. This madness is known to those in the Kaliphlin as “Dunstyria.”

History: The region has few settlements, and has had even fewer rulers. There is very little of importance here but a few oil wells and a swatch of territory to add to a ruler’s map. It is odd that war broke out here, but it does lie in the middle of many important locations in Kaliphlin, it is bordered by the Petraea Road, the Mystic Mountains, the Lone Mountain, the Swamps of Qar-Akhen River, and the more profitable Parched Lands. In some regards, it is a second avenue into many of these locations, and the side who controls it would be sealing off a backdoor to other locations. The troops must watch out for the mythic Sand Ghouls, Sand Worms, Dirtmaids, and Lerik'ai, all of which can bring a swift end to a party, and if not the inhabitants of the Dune Sea, then nature itself may deal a fatal blow.

Mini-challenge: Depict the desolation of the region, while securing it for your side. This does not have to be a battle scene, it can be an occupation (you decide of what), taming the region somehow, building a fortification to outlast the Haboobs, etc… Use your imagination.

Special judging consideration: The public will be asked to judge who won based on creative use of the desert. IE: we are asking MOCers to really demonstrate life and death in the desert, not just a pile of sand and some figs.

Secondary Category: Best Sand. A third question will be asked on the voting thread, which build contained the best sand? Although it has nothing to do with who will win the battle, it does allow that winner to be known throughout Historica as the “Traverser of the Great Sands.”

Restrictions: Unlimited.

Due Date: April 5th

Contenders:

High Council

BrickCurve

LittleJohn

Ulandus

Garmadon

Kai NRG

Narbilu

Rconn0

Desert King

Disco86

TheLegoDwarf

Hammerhand

Jacob Nion

BLufiji

LordDan

Dr. Cogg

MKJoshA

Umbra-Manis

Emma

Captain Braunsfeld

Robuko

Edited April 8, 2015 by SkaForHire

[Elostirion]

I don't understand the urge for balance. Isn't that the point of a war, that one side wins over the other(s), by having most "warriors" (builders), by having the best warriors or just by strategic decisions? If the DK has the largest and best "builder-army", it's totally fine for me that they win.

[SkaForHire]

I don't understand the urge for balance. Isn't that the point of a war, that one side wins over the other(s), by having most "warriors" (builders), by having the best warriors or just by strategic decisions? If the DK has the largest and best "builder-army", it's totally fine for me that they win.

I don't think everyone is on the same page with that. I think it is less the fact that DK might win, and more that some people have voiced complaints because it is not very fun being beat every week because one side is way more active than the other. I don't think anyone has said that they would be upset if DK won the challenge, I think people have been upset because they are not having fun. I am concerned with balance because A)they all complain to me and B)I want everyone to have fun! And on another note, if DK gets WAY ahead, it will probably be less fun for the builders there too.

On another note, I meant the never again option as a joke!!! hahaha. Well, at least someone is honest.

[robuko]

Ska, I can totally see your dilemma. However, the desert king has only amassed enough power to match the other 2 sides and they are all now more or less equal on points.

Maxim floated the idea of players switching allegiance, that might be an interesting way to rebalance.

It is very hard on the DK players if they are penalised for eking out the hard grind back to parity with the other sides, purely because the other sides do not show up for the battles they have signed up for. That would be pretty demotivating for the DK builders. I'm with Elostirion, it's a war and may the strongest side win. If all we are fighting for is a balanced stalemate, why show up?

It was interesting that Ulandus won the small builds WZ4 challenge, as I have said before, I would advocate more of those in the contest because I think it will reduce barriers to entry and equalise the playing field.

Edited April 7, 2015 by robuko

[LordDan]

I think that in June we should see where we are and then decide if we want the war to continue. I think that everyone may be pretty worn out by June

I definately don't think that the Desert King should be penalized! After all, it's not our fault that we are motivated and actually put effort into this war! It takes a lot of work and effort to build for these challenges constantly and this hard work should be REWARDED instead of discouraged!

I do think that only High Council and Ulandus should get new members.

[Jacob Nion]

I voted for Ulandus, mainly because of their sand techniques.

Ska, there's no voting question for "best sand". Maybe it went lost about all the DK too strong discussion. I was so excited about giving away sand awards.

Bet sand for me is KaiNRG's entry. I like the smooth areas in it.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Jacob Nion

[Garmadon]

I voted for the DK (for obvious reasons )

I agree with the others that it the DK should't be given a disadvantage - after all, they only have three more members than Uiandus and have less than the HC. Their success is due to the fact that they have the mysterious ability to be able to get most of their builders to get two or three builds done every week (a mysterious ability which we could certainly use... ) The HC has the most builders and the highest average building skill, and they really wouldn't have much trouble if they could all build... as for Ulandus, I believe it also has plenty of potential. If neither will build enough I think it is quite right for the DK to win (though obviously those who do build can't be blamed for their teammates' inactivity)

I at least am really enjoying this challenge even though Ulandus isn't winning (though it would be better if we were )

I agree with robuko that the best way to spice it up would be to allow members to change teams at will or to include more warzones with small footprints.

[Mike S]

I don't think the issue has anything to do with number of builders on each team but rather unbalanced teams in terms of building capabilities. As long as MassEditor and Disco continue posting entries for DK, Ulandus and HC don't stand a chance as there is no one on either team who could beat either one of them. I'm not delusional enough to think I can, so I'm not even going to waste my time trying.

[Garmadon]

I don't think the issue has anything to do with number of builders on each team but rather unbalanced teams in terms of building capabilities. As long as MassEditor and Disco continue posting entries for DK, Ulandus and HC don't stand a chance as there is no one on either team who could beat either one of them. I'm not delusional enough to think I can, so I'm not even going to waste my time trying.

I have to disagree with you here, as I believe that Infernum and Gabe on my team, and SK, LJ, dG, Gideon, Jakorin and others (pretty much all of you guys, if you ask me!) on the HC have a very high level of building capacity. Besides that, though I might find it more tactical to counter an easier build that I would be just about certain to beat rather than a very difficult one I would not stand such a good chance against (a square is a square, after all! ), I would be happy to counter a build by MassEditor or Disco if I didn't already have my one counter a week filled up

To tell the truth, I believe that all three teams are very well matched - the only reason for the DK's success is their impressively consistent building. (once again, hat's off to you guys for that!)

Edited April 7, 2015 by Garmadon

[Mike S]

I have to disagree with you here, as I believe that Infernum and Gabe on my team, and SK, LJ, dG, Gideon, Jakorin and others (pretty much all of you guys, if you ask me!) on the HC have a very high level of building capacity. Besides that, though I might find it more tactical to counter an easier build that I would be just about certain to beat rather than a very difficult one I would not stand such a good chance against (a square is a square, after all! ), I would be happy to counter a build by MassEditor or Disco if I didn't already have my one counter a week filled up

To tell the truth, I believe that all three teams are very well matched - the only reason for the DK's success is their impressively consistent building. (once again, hat's off to you guys for that!)

Out of that list of builders even though they put out great builds only Gabe is on the same level or better than Disco and MassEditor. You might be happy to counter them but it doesn't change the facts that you have no chance of beating them unless they decided to let you win by producing a subpar build.

[Jacob Nion]

Out of that list of builders even though they put out great builds only Gabe is on the same level or better than Disco and MassEditor. You might be happy to counter them but it doesn't change the facts that you have no chance of beating them unless they decided to let you win by producing a subpar build.

Finally someone who hasn't seen the Lego Movie? Everyone can be a master builder :)

I tried to start with something positive. I'm sorry, but all this whining about nobody could beat some serious builders is just embarrassing. Of course you can counter them! Where's the problem? Just try instead of giving up.

Ska talked about others not having fun because of the DK's win series. My fun is spoiled by people who give up right at the beginning of the challenge only because the think they have no chance.

I could understand if someone was afraid of players with large collection. But just saying 'oh gosh their entries are so super duper that's unfair I give up' only shows the total absence of sportsmanship.

And what you wrote about wasting time- if it is your serious opinion that trying to create a better moc than others is wasting time, please give your bricks to some kids on the street who surely will have more fun with it.

I could also say 'oh man why is that builder participating at this contest? Hasn't he already won enough I give up'. If everyone would think so, it would be a very, very poor community here.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Jacob Nion

[Bregir]

Best sand: Captain Braunsfield.

Regarding balancing, I think closing membership to the winning side (dynamicly over the course of the war, as activity may well vary) is the best solution.

Regarding skills and ability, I really do not subscribe to the idea that some builders are invulnerable. Personally, I will rarely be able to match the quality of some of the best builders here, but I really do not think that is what it should be about.

In terms of Guerilla's, I consider whether the guerilla attack is substantial enough to take over the province, and whether the guerilla sufficiently counters the effect. Say one builder cranks out an average quality build (for his/her skill level) countered by an average quality build (for his/her skill level) from a builder of a different class, I will happily vote for the "lower quality build" *IF* the idea is good, and the effects are countered.

For everybody to take part of this, I think this is how we should do, to keep in the spirit of GOH, where all are welcome.

Regarding the rules, I have only one comment: I would suggest making away with the "overwhelming" and "decisive" victories. They are hard to manage and aggrevates any imbalances that may arise during the civil war. (I still think we can continue to have some war zones turn over control of an additional square, for story reasons, as we have had in the past.)

My two cents.

[soccerkid6]

Out of that list of builders even though they put out great builds only Gabe is on the same level or better than Disco and MassEditor. You might be happy to counter them but it doesn't change the facts that you have no chance of beating them unless they decided to let you win by producing a subpar build.

Personally, I think each team has several world class builders. And if you really want to get right down to it, even I have beaten Disco in a contest before...

Even just in challenge IV, for the 8x8 battle category, I think that Maxim had one of the two best entries.

As Jacob said, everyone has a chance if they try.

[Kai NRG]

I agree with SK; every team has some awesome builders. I also agree that the DK certainly should not be penalized things shouldn't be made harder for the DK just because of the fantastic effort they've shown so far. I voted for permission for the GLs to be able to counter but only because I couldn't vote without selecting one option.

Personally, I think things are fine the way they are. Numerically there isn't much difference between teams and if the DK is able to get so many members building, good for them! (As for skill level, that's a different question but I do think things are more or less equal with us Ulandians on the worse end for sure though!) We're really not very far into this thing and although the DK may be pulling ahead, a few weeks from them with the same amount of activity (or lack thereof!) as has been shown by the HC this last week and things would be quite even!

Best Sand: Emma. Although I do think mine was pretty good.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Kai NRG

[Blufiji]

Best sand: CB, and I'm trying not be biased and say me lol!

So I'll throw my two cents in here. I think no builder in this conflict is irreproachable. To be discouraged because team x has so and so and team y doesn't is an excuse. Remember the whole point of this is to get better at building as a whole. Using myself as an example, I am horrible at both deserts and volume building. I don't build rapidly even on my free builds and I certainly have a hard time building quickly once a week or every two weeks and it really shows I think. But to sit here and pout that Disco and ME, who are both really good Volume builders, make teams so unbalanced is really lame. If that's the attitude why even bother building at all, let alone this challenge. All of us no matter what skill set were awful or subpar builders at one point. If volume building isn't your thing that's fine pump out a GA or a war zone and make it worth it every few weeks. But just don't have a defeatist attitude about it. And IMO personal opinion Mike I feel you give yourself too little credit.

Edited April 7, 2015 by blufiji

[SkaForHire]

I haven't read past Mike S.'s first post, but I wanted to reiterate here the language most of you are using is wrong -- no one is talking about penalizing DK. I just deleted that one about splitting DK in half.... sorry, that was sarcasm and it did not go over well.

[Mike S]

And if you really want to get right down to it, even I have beaten Disco in a contest before...

I didn't know that but again you are a "MOC expert. So evidently someone thinks your builds are pretty good.

And IMO personal opinion Mike I feel you give yourself too little credit.

I only give my self the credit that I deserve and three years of building and never winning anything proves my builds are subpar.

And what you wrote about wasting time- if it is your serious opinion that trying to create a better moc than others is wasting time, please give your bricks to some kids on the street who surely will have more fun with it.

I could also say 'oh man why is that builder participating at this contest? Hasn't he already won enough I give up'. If everyone would think so, it would be a very, very poor community here.

You definitely don't get my point. Its a waste of time building in GoH because my efforts are largely ignored. I'll instead build subpar builds for my son who simply loves them.

[SkaForHire]

Ok, read the rest.

Although DK has a lot of magnificent builders, I am pretty sure both the other sides have some of the best builders in the world on them. Gideon, Gabe, Kayne definitely come to mind. Mike, you are way up the ladder too. That is the thing about GOH, out of the top fantasy/castle builders in the world, we have at least 10 or more of the top 50 here. This is one of the only places we can have newbies and first time MOCers compete, learn, and be tutored by world class talent. Yeah, DK is laying down the shellacking here, but at the same time we are being treated to some spectacular builds that we can already see the lesser skilled people start to emulate and transform. Take LordDan for example (please don't take this the wrong way Dan) At the beginning of this challenge, his skill was much lower than it is now. His last build was very, very good. He has transformed in two months time to a force to be reckoned with!

Mike, you can counter any of those builds that have been put out there, but if we think of it in numbers, even if Disco and ME were invincible, if another team were to produce more quality overall, then shouldn't that team get the votes?

[Blufiji]

I only give my self the credit that I deserve and three years of building and never winning anything proves my builds are subpar.

I don't get it what exactly are you trying to win? Don't you have two shield tags or what not? Doesn't that mean you've accomplished something? If I'm wrong please enlighten me.

[SkaForHire]

finally, I took the distraction votes off the topic. It seems many people were interested in continuing, but LordDan is right, we will take a poll later in May to make that decision.

[Adair]

Personally, unless something changes drastically, the Desert King is going to win. My personal opinion is that Ulandus and the High Council should join forces (then things would be pretty much balanced, member wise). But if Desert King wins, I won't complain (at least not out loud. ).

[Mike S]

I don't get it what exactly are you trying to win? Don't you have two shield tags or what not? Doesn't that mean you've accomplished something? If I'm wrong please enlighten me.

I could have just spent two minutes piling bricks on a plate for at least one challenge in each book and still gotten the tags. Absolutely no proof of accomplishment there.

Edit: I'm not complaining about DK winning and at this point I kind of hope they win because it will result in my character being killed off. I'm just saying that with the large disparity in the voting it definitely shows DK has an edge that wouldn't change even if everyone from all the teams built. I'm pretty sure that if one team had only one build and it was the best build of all, that team would get the majority of the votes even if every other member of the other teams built.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Mike S

[SkaForHire]

I could have just spent two minutes piling bricks on a plate for at least one challenge in each book and still gotten the tags. Absolutely no proof of accomplishment there.

That is only true for the first tag. You were chosen for the second.

[Blufiji]

I could have just spent two minutes piling bricks on a plate for at least one challenge in each book and still gotten the tags. Absolutely no proof of accomplishment there.

So again what are you trying to win exactly?

[Mike S]

So again what are you trying to win exactly?

Good question... maybe that is why my interest is waning. Nothing tangible to win anymore.... In the beginning there were Lego prizes.