Fugazi

That's right, it was Hazel you defended twice. My mistake! Thanks. In this case, it sorts of settles the Maggie suspicions. Barry probably didn't want to kill Maggie not because she was scum but because the night actions were already in and Maggie wasn't going to die that night. Maggie could still be a Maple, but what Barry said isn't really a clue to that.

When was the night action deadline in relation to this? It seems to me like your telling Barry to kill Maggie was way past that deadline? Sounds to me like Peter is either an Oak trying to catch scum jumping on an easy lynch, a Maple trying to appear like a Jester, a real Jester, or a Maple faking mental distress in order to win our sympathy. Not sure which is the likeliest, though Berty defending Peter not once but twice is... moving.

I think there are 24 hours left or so...

Well, it was reported by Berty after the night kills were in, so... WIFOM.

Crap. You're making sense. I dind't realize that all the crazy claims started at the night action deadline or shortly before, according to William and Berty. That seriously suggests that Barry started spreading misinformation after he learned he was going to die. If William could also tell us the exact moment Berty claimed to him, we would have the complete picture. Has anyone else been claimed to by Barry? It's a good point, but I'm not sure it proves that Alastair wasn't scum given the voting momentum then. All of this happened in the 4 hours before the night action deadline? Anyway, it's interesing to note that Barry didn't want to kill Maggie. If his strategy was to make sure he doesn't get killed, he would have started claiming long before the very last hours before the night action deadline. Yup, that's what I'm thinking too. It would be interesting to know if the vig sent in their action early that night. I think you're getting somewhere here.

Was there? No one he talked to actually believed he was the vig. His role claim was just too crazy, and the real vig would have been much more circumspect. Remember that Barry couldn't know if he was talking to Oak or Maple. In other words, my theory is: 1) Scum figure out that Barry is the SK 2) Scum attempt to protect Barry from a lynch because they can use him (mislead him into killing for them) 3) Vig kills SK during the night 4) Scum janitor Barry because a) not doing so would make one of them look bad; or b) they want to keep town confused. Does it make sense, of is it too far fetched? I'd like to think that Barry was scum, but would a Maple really run around claiming an unbelievable role like he did? I need to review all that stuff, can't say I remember much of Day 1.

I think this makes the most sense. There's one more possibility though that hasn't been addressed.. That kind of deal wouldn't have helped WIlliam, because for him to act as a Vengeful he needs to die. Why would scum Barry need to back lynched scum William's fake claim? That's another good theory, but why would scum janitor the SK, if Barry was really janitored? Thinking about it some more, Barry did talk to a lot of people about his role. Well at least William, Berty and Bruce knew that he could kill. If this came to the ears of a Maple, they might have figured our Barry was the SK. When he turned up dead, they might have decided to janitor Barry... perhaps so that Oaks would think they killed the scum killer? I'm trying to figure out if it's possible that scum decided to janitor the SK... because from what we learned today, Barry had a very weird out there behaviour for a Maple killer. I have been scum a few times in my mafia career, but in none of those roles did we have a janitor. I don't think there was such a role in the game I helped host either. So no, I'm not sure about the mechanics of the role. I tend to agree with your analysis. I wouldn't put past scum to janitor the SK, but I don't think I have found a totally convincing justification for them acting so. I thought the town block knew who the vig was... Someone can possibly confirm the target of the vig. Why do we need a PGO again? Isn't it possible that Barry killed Clem or Bobby, the vig took out Barry, and scum killed the third player? This may look like a whole lot of idle theories, but it may actually be important to know with a degree of certainty whether Barry was scum or neutral (SK). His interactions with some other trees are being scutinized and perhaps that the reason he was janitored was to prevent us from drawing some obvious conclusions... More on this later.

I know, but nonetheless in many of the games I played the host chose to use a specific weapon for each killer, consistently, as a deliberate clue. Maybe it's not something that has been done in recent games, I can't say. In the list of codes he sent me there was no allowance for a neutral player besides serial killer, so for what it's worth he wasn't planning on claiming neutral. According to the ancient scrolls, the Vengeful role is more commonly Oak than Maple. Vengeful Maple essentially gives scum an extra kill, but there wouldn't be a point for scum to use this role if the Vengeful wasn't going to be lynched anyway. William revealed his role (and his plan) at a juncture when he wasn't in any immediate danger of being lynched. Trading one for one is not a good deal for Maples unless the Maple is going to die anyway. I don't your information should be revealed openly. If you can't use it or pass it down to trusted living Oaks, let it remain secret. Why? That's an interesting analysis. I'm not familiar with the mechanics of the janitor role, but it would make sense that the Maples get to choose among dead players instead of janitoring at random hoping their target would get killed. One thing that still bugs me is... why haven't Maples tried to trim down the town block yet? They know who the verified Oaks are, so it shouldn't be so difficult. Are they hoping to fire the suspicion some of us have towards the town block, or have they infiltrated it so well that they don't want to kill off their sources?

Hmm... so not only lynches can be janitored, apparently. And there's no consistency in the use of tools, lynches were treated differently yesterday and today. I hope the night results are more positive. Given that his killer and the janitor were coordinated, I doubt that Barry could be scum. Unless there's another explanation?

Welcome to EB Chentzilla. Please do not use our forums as a method to raise votes for your various projects. Do have a look at out membership rules for guidance (see link in my signature).

Sorry about my absence during the later part of this day, there were some unforeseen complications out of this forest that I had to deal with. After reading the last few pages, I'm surprised at how little Larry fought for his life... unless I missed something? Would a Maple have fought more? It's difficult to conclude. In any case, the vote switching will be informative if Larry turns out to be scum. As it is, my vote won't change anything to the day's conclusion, but I do want to quote a few tress whose ideas I share. Somehow I'm even more suspicious of the (need we say again, not very common) miller role now that we know that the miller idea was discussed privately before the claim. Not sure who these conversations were shared with, but it's possible that this inspired scum to use the role as a fake claim. Vote: Berty Birch (dragonfire) I only explained why I gave you a break on Day 2, which was the possibility that you were actually the investigator. When Bruce (or was it you?) said that a third player investigated you, it voided my theory. Call it fishing if it pleases you.

Because you're so great at competently lynching scum, your Oakiness. How convenient of you not to send codes to the one tree that was sure to die yesterday. If it's inadvertent then I'm not scum, and you're contradicting yourself. I can only trust and respect those who show respect, but you're arrogant and don't play with the town. If he blabbed to the wrong person the odds are 1/1. You're right that he might have claimed, but maybe that didn't cross his mind. Maybe there's no town investigator. Either way, your record doesn't exactly spare you from being scrutinized.

Then you probably also understand that until your story makes any kind of sense, not everyone will be following you blindly. Got it. You were investigated by a third party, then went asking Simon to tell us the good news. Maybe Alastair was the investigator, and he blabbed too much.

Why is everyone acting so haughtily? That's what I'm trying to understand: you acted as Bruce/someone else's mouthpiece on Day 2, yet you weren't verified. Bruce was. Then Bruce asks you to become a mouthpiece, and you had to be verified. It doesn't add up. If Bruce is verified, he can speak for the dream team. Please help me understand how you're not stroking each other's back.

Please entertain me... If the investigator trusted you enough to share their result on Day 2, why were you investigated on Night 2? For a moment yesterday I thought that you might be the investigator, therefore couldn't explain how Bruce had been verified. But the latest result shows that you're not it, unless you can verify yourself. How does any of this makes sense? The miller, the bomb, the investigator... now William? Now what ever William thought to claim to unverified trees like that? Why do you think Bruce is scum? Yup, go ahead and claim all you like to them, they're self-verified now. Oh, read too fast. So it's Bruce telling you... because he trusts you.

I agree. Also, a Maple would not do anything as wreckless as suggesting on Day Two they're in contact with the investigator and starting to form the verified core of our forest. I'm glad we're both on such an Oaky pedestal. When was Simon ever confirmed? Assuming that all the claims today are vanilla (which may or may not be true, since stumps were advised not to share information with unverified trees), it doesn't fully support your point. Unless both Maples and Oaks are lying about their claim. Because if you lie and are later found to have a power role, you're in deep trouble. A traditional block can never be as safe as your stump block. For one thing, we don't know if conversions are possible. Don't dismiss your usefulness, now and later in the game. Now the other possibility is that there are indeed very few power roles in this forest, perhaps providing a balance for the stumps. I wouldn't disclose that kind of information to just anybody if I were you though, or Maples will take advantage of it. No miller conterclaim is meaningless, as it's not a common role to start with. I'm sorry, I still think that codes can give us plenty of information if used properly. Of course you can't expect to learn anything from 9 out of 25 claims. I also note that trees like Simon who were strong proponents of the codes didn't send in their claim. How are we supposed to make this work then?

Sounds like a good method. Are you guys allowed to PM each other? If so, that does simplifies things. Now here's my claim -- but you stumps make sure not to divulge this unless there's a good reason to it and to verified Oaks only. Catarina = djj4r Agnes = 454 Vicky = Greatly

Yup. One player being me.

They didn't say their ally is verified, only trusted them with their code for some reason. There might be a valid reason for that, I will try to find out.

A stump who will tell trusted Oaks about their action if any and collect claims from living trees. We need stumps active enough to get somewhere today. Indeed. They actually mentioned one ally, not a group. Since I'm not sure how this trust came to be (perhaps they do have the means to verify one another), I will err on the side of caution and not name anyone. On the other hand, this might be information of interest to the stumps if I can find a way of sending it through.

Or the janitor can act only every other day. It's impossible to tell just now. I wonder if Vicky was killed because Maples thought he wouldn't be a collaborative stump, since he barely posted yesterday. If it's the case I hope he can prove them wrong. I mean she. Vicky is obviously a she-tree. Yeah.

Hmpf. We're not doing so well. We sort of have a modus operandi for last night kills (Agnes felled by saw, Vicky felled by hatchet), but I don't know if it's meaningful or consistent. And we don't actually know who did what on Night One. Now more than ever, we need some help from the stumps. Who's still here?

We cannot shop lynching based on the yet unproven possibility that all lynch alignments are lost. Even then, lynching remains a tool we need to use if we are to make any progress. But your theory even reinforces the idea that we need to seize every opportunity to share information. Therefore the codes. If you really are Oak, you may be in a position to help us greatly tomorrow. If you're Maple, don't bother sending codes, we won't care.

True, but perhaps the stump may need to share with you that such and such trees are all vanilla. Giving a set of secret numbers will prevent scum from associating one code with "vanilla".

If I understand correctly, each tree sends a different code list to each living tree. Then he uses the appropriate and specific code to claim to the stump (ex-living player), so that no one else but the stump can understand the meaning of the code. I think it can work. In other words, there's a specific code between each pair of living players.