Rufus

I had a bad haircut already! I seem to be making a habit of getting killed twice in one night. Thanks for a great game, Bob! I really enjoyed it.

Thanks. I can't argue with that. I think if you were scum and faking these, it would have taken longer than half an hour or so. The timestamps match perfectly with the end of the day threads, and if you had edited the PMs from a scum action, I doubt they'd have been sent so near to the end of the day. If they're fakes, they are brilliant fakes, but I don't think they're fakes. I'm glad I asked you now. I'm only suprised you didn't bring this forward sooner. Unvote: Thomas Hornby (Shadows) Now we have a slight problem. For myself, I'm not keen on lynching Holloway, as he has a town result for him, and his comments in the day threads look town to me. There have been allegations that he's behaved oddly behind the scenes, but as I have not been privy to these discussions, I can't attach any suspicion to them. I'm not entirely convinced there's anything against Williams, except the possibility of her being the scum killer; and would include Wheeler in the list of suspects for this role. There is the argument that the scum kill might have changed hands, but we can be fairly sure Scumba was indeed a role cop (a very difficult role to fake), and I still think it's likely Rockford was the scum blocker. If this is true, that leaves just Williams and Wheeler (assuming McAndrew's block didn't go through because he was killed). I'd support a lynch on either; though at this late stage it might be difficult to achieve.

It's debatable whether McAndrews's block of Wheeler would have worked, as he was killed that night. I wouldn't clear Wheeler from suspicion personally. I've been suspicious of Wheeler for a long time; and she's been strangely silent today. It occurs to me that, although Jones isn't confirmed himself, he does seem to have some faith in his own results, or at least some of them. We now know that that the scum knew the identity of the investigator on day 4, which poses the question: why is the investigator still alive? My best guess would be that it is because it's to the scum's advantage to keep him alive, at least for the moment. This would imply that something about the investigator's results is beneficial to scum. There's this conversation from today: Interesting. I don't recall saying that only getting town results means the investigator is scum, just that it was unfortunate. As a matter of fact, I believe I made it clear that it only meant that they couldn't be completely verified yet and I also made it clear that they were potentially too important to take a risk killing. Did you actually read what I said before the knee-jerk reaction? I'm well aware of your suspicions, you suspect one person the investigator claims is town and not another. It's a little confusing and completely impossible to justify. What isn't impossibly to justify is that the investigator and Holloway are the only two people who knew the vig's target the night he was blocked, so one or the other is scum. Would you prefer we target the investigator today? I think that would be incredibly foolish. Jones trusts his result on Holloway. The implication is that he doesn't trust the other result. Why? I'd be interested to know what led Jones to choose his target on night 4, and whether anyone influenced that decision (and if so, who). While we're at it, I'd also like to ask Hornby whom he protected on nights 1-3, and why.

Do you mean a janitor? A jailkeeper is a protector/blocker. I'm not sure the admiral would have bothered with all that 'leaving this vessel' stuff if Wright had been janitored.

Then put your mouth where your money is! Personally, I'm less convinced about Williams. If he's scum, he's playing the clueless townie role well. The only thing I could find against him is his exchange with Walters at the start of day 4, which could be seen as a soft defence of Hornby and Rockford, but I'd guess was driven more by distrust of McAndrews, based on what he said earlier today. I think there's a much stronger candidate: I maintain that Hornby is the scum we should lynch today. The sentence I quoted from today is a dead giveaway. You won't get better than this for a scumtell. He's trying to discredit Wilder, and unwittingly reveals that he knows that the scum never targeted the vig. Couple this with the York/McAndrews 'sting' from day 4 - which may have worked better than anyone thought: go and read it again. York's neck is on the line, so she makes an neutral roleclaim - not uncommon for a scum to do if they think they might be lynched. No one believes it. But at no point does Hornby consider the possibility that York might be scum.

We lynched Rockford on the basis that he remained alive because he was protected by the scum protector; and there was apparently one in the simulation. If a scum is going to claim town protector, it would make sense that it would be the scum protector. Which, as you say, you know something about.

I don't quite see the logic in this. If the implication is that you (or, at least, McAndrews) were sure that Holloway is scum, and therefore Jones must be lying, then surely the way to test this would be to lynch Holloway. As I said yesterday, my read on Holloway based on his posts in the day threads and his trawl through the previous days is that it is consistent with the behaviour of a vanilla townie. Not being privy to the moves he has made privately, I can't comment on whether they are suspicious or not; I believe there may be flaws in his analysis (he said himself it was subjective). My read may or may not be correct; either way, I wouldn't be inclined to trust automatically anyone he has 'cleared' whether he is scum or town. As for the investigator, I'm suspicious of investigator claims where the action has seemingly appeared mid-way through the game. I think this is worth discussing. If the role appeared in order to balance the game after Wright's death, it brings back into question the whole 'neutral role cop' thing, and whether the game would become balanced by introducing an apparently town-aligned investigator. I'd like to hear more from Jones about his role. Then there's this protector business. I'm not so sure. The lack of scum kill on night 4 has been widely assumed to have occurred because the scum tried to kill the vig, but were foiled by the town protector. I'm still puzzled as to why the scum made that mistake. Even if they had heard that the protector was targeting someone else, it's still a gamble, and they'd have known that. Why not kill the protector, or the town blocker, or anyone else? It's a sloppy and amateurish scum mistake. But I don't think that's what happened at all - I don't think the scum targeted the vig. I think that's what we were meant to assume (I actually think there was a conversion). If we let go of the assumption that the vig was targeted night 4, then there is nothing to suggest that there is a town protector at all. And when looking for confirmation of this, it's always best to look in the most unlikely of places: The bracketed part of this statement is blatantly untrue, but the bolded part is very telling, and immediately discredits Hornby's town protector claim. Scum protector? Quite likely. Vote: Thomas Hornby (Shadows)

Another step forward. Let's focus on that. With Rockford confirmed scum we might have something more to analyse; however he said so little that I don't hold out much hope. Nevertheless, I'll go back to the security recorderings. Again. This makes little sense to me; but if you're saying what I think you might be saying, two of the people I've got my eye on would fit into that category.

Power Functions belongs in Technic, so I'll move this there.

Let's not celebrate until we see the outcome confirmed. I've been thinking about this quite carefully, trying to see if it is possible we're making a mistake. The accusation is strong. It is almost as good as an investigation result against you. If McAndrews is correct when he says that Wright was told he was blocked, then the only explanation for your survival is that you were protected by scum. I doubt McAndrews would have presented the case this way unless he were sure of his facts. So, much like an investigation, the only defence you could possibly give is that you were framed. As has been pointed out, for you to be town this would require the scum to be absolutely sure that you were being targeted by the vig, and use their protection on you (rather than protecting one of their own), for the sole reason of keeping you alive to be lynched today (when they could quite easily just have let you die). Strikes me as a huge risk for minimal gain. This kinda brings me back to my earlier point: why didn't the scum block the vig? I think this is worth thinking about. Firstly, the vig is a danger. Even if the scum planned to kill the vig, there is the danger that the vig kill would go through: usually, if player A kills player B the same night player B kills player C, both B and C will die. Now: if Rockford is town, and the scum hear that the vig is planning to target him and so decide to protect him to set up the frame, they are taking an awful risk - if the vig changes target for whatever reason, the entire scum team is unprotected. It makes little sense not to block the vig for sole reason of setting up Rockford for a lynch today. As I said: big risk, little gain. If Rockford is scum, then as Holloway says there may be less reason to block the vig; however, not blocking the vig again implies that the scum were absolutely sure the vig would target Rockford, and left Rockford vulnerable to accusation today, as has happened. If they had blocked the vig, the accusation against Rockford would have been far weaker, and may not have happened at all; moreover, there is still the risk of the vig changing target. In this situation, it makes no sense not to block the vig, and the only explanation I can think of is that the scum blocker was blocked. Any way I look at it seems to make Rockford scum, even ignoring his scummy 'Well That's Just Great' defence (see The Forest Mafia: Day Seven for a classic of the genre). Talking of which: Note if you will that Rockford does not say that he didn't get a message to say he was blocked. Now this is interesting. Rockford's accusation ought to be aimed at McAndrews, who after all started the vote. Yet he votes for Hornby. Why? If Rockford is town, he must have a reasonable suspicion of Hornby. Fair enough. However, it looks very likely that Rockford is scum. What then does he gain by voting for Hornby? An attempt to deflect suspicion from Hornby, because no scum would vote for their own, or to draw suspicion to Hornby, because scum are shifty and do very often vote for their own? Now that's Numberwang WIFOM. I know what I think's more likely.

What does that mean There's too many acronyms in this game...of life !! It can be traced back to a post by McAdenoids which I can't find now. I thought initially it was just a ham-fisted typo, but apparently it is a legitimate way of communicating via t'internets.

That might be a contender for the scummiest post evah. It strikes me that if the scum really wanted you dead they could simply not have protected you. Or just killed you. I don't recall anyone suggesting that. But the one thing that worried me about the original accusation was: why didn't the scum block the vig? And the only logical answer I can think of was that the scum blocker was blocked. Really? I must have missed that.

Yes, and no. I was about to post all this, when you dropped the bombshell, so I'll cut it short. I'm vanilla town. I'm not privvy to the conversation in which Holloway apparently tried to change the protector's target beyond what has been presented to everyone today, or of his apparent fishing for information. I will say that Holloway's attempts to find scum by reading through the security recordings or whatever it is we're supposed to call the previous day threads is behaviour consistent with that of a vanilla townie, even if I don't necessarily agree with his methodology. And I can vouch that he did that - I saw him there, whilst I was doing the same thing, though I suspect he didn't think I could see him. The problem is that, as Vanderbilt pointed out, the assumption that scum don't argue with each other is erroneous. You just have to read the simulation to see examples, or many other past similar situations. The upshot of this is that people may have apparently been 'cleared' when really they have no business being cleared. As to what this implies about Holloway, I think it's most likely he's telling the truth, but I'm worried that he's now trusting some people who are probably scum. I do find the apparent attempt to wrestle control of the town worrying, though - misguided at best, alarming at worst. Anyhoo, this is much more important. I'd say this is pretty much irrefutable. I'll look forward to Rockford's response; but there doesn't seem to be a good reason not to vote now. Vote: Ensign Toby Rockford (darkdragon)

There were supposed to deaths, you say. Hmmm. To my mind, no night deaths at all is a pretty amazing result for us, and I fail to see why you think this should be viewed as a problem.

Oh dear.

Instantly that becomes a very different film!

I moved your topic into the Fabuland Figures Q&A thread, and I'll move this post into there too shortly. I'm not sure there's an answer to your specific question there, but there is a link to a tutorial on making legs less wobbly which I guess could be extrapolated to heads. I think it's in this thread somewhere.

Thanks, Pandy. I'll merge this into 'Concerning Fabuland Figures'.

Whatever, dude. You're catched, man!

Vote: Andrew Gordon (Scubacarrot)

Not when you're dead. Just saying.

Dammit, I wanted to hug that magic tree stump before he exploded. Go Stumpy! This fits perfectly with a lot of things that had me worried. Why the town power roles had apparently not had any success with their actions, for one. My own concerns were leaning towards McAndrews, but I guess he himself isn't in the clear just because Gordon's been outed. York isn't entirely in the clear either, but my guess would be that York has been set up to make it look that she leaked the knowledge of the town roles. Well, at last we're getting somewhere!

Is it? Why? Strikes me that whoever was stupid enough to tell York this information needs a good long look at.